Shama: Coach Ben Johnson’s Job Safe for Now

[Plato]

I hope that this does not come as a surprise but Coyle makes the decisions about what metrics coaches must meet to keep their jobs.
No one on this board is involved in the decision-making.
You can decide to watch them or not and can decide to buy tickets or not and donate or not.
That is all you can do.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

I hope that this does not come as a surprise but Coyle makes the decisions about what metrics coaches must meet to keep their jobs.
No one on this board is involved in the decision-making.
You can decide to watch them or not and can decide to buy tickets or not and donate or not.
That is all you can do.

Plato-esque.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

You should do more research on coaches contracts and our previous ADs. Coyles good and didn’t hamstring us much at all with Ben’s contract.
I know we don’t like his bball hires, but he’s been good for MN athletics imo.

Terrible at basketball, good elsewhere

 

[LesBolstad]

Plato-esque.

haha, I was thinking SON like

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I hope that this does not come as a surprise but Coyle makes the decisions about what metrics coaches must meet to keep their jobs.
No one on this board is involved in the decision-making.
You can decide to watch them or not and can decide to buy tickets or not and donate or not.
That is all you can do.

All that to say nothing

 

[UpAndUnder43]

haha, I was thinking SON like

I assumed it was SON until I read the responses.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I hope that this does not come as a surprise but Coyle makes the decisions about what metrics coaches must meet to keep their jobs.
No one on this board is involved in the decision-making.
You can decide to watch them or not and can decide to buy tickets or not and donate or not.
That is all you can do.

If you don't think decisions get made partly due to public opinion and pressure, I have the wreckage of a spy balloon to sell you.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, we're our own worst enemy. We're polite and meek to a fault. There's a reason our major pro teams have gone 117 straight seasons without sniffing a title.

 

[WindyCityGopher]

If he got fired and had 8 million coming, why in heavens name would he go sign up for a 300k per year assistant job in order to forfeit the 8 million? I beg to differ with Sviggum on the level of skill that took.

Yep, agree. If I have that deal I'm pulling a Kliff Kingsbury and headed to Phuket for a year (or forever) to enjoy the good life with my model girlfriend.

 

[cjbfbp]

So, since Coyle has been here, he has significantly improved football, both basketball teams are circling the drain, women's hockey has been worse, and men's hockey has been comparable but slightly worse than the six years before he arrived. No problem crediting him for the football improvement, but his complete body of work doesn't have me convinced he walks on water.

Without looking at the numbers, I'd guess that football provides as much or more revenues than all of those other sports put together so if you're going to invest and raise the profile of a single sport, football is the one.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Without looking at the numbers, I'd guess that football provides as much or more revenues than all of those other sports put together so if you're going to invest and raise the profile of a single sport, football is the one.

I don't dispute that. I was responding to someone who said his success in football and hockey bought him a lot of equity, and I was pointing out that he really hasn't improved the hockey programs from where they were before he arrived. If you are going to do one right, football is definitely the one to do it in (and I say that as someone who is a bigger hockey fan than football one), but that doesn't establish a track record of turning multiple programs around, And he actually cut some sports entirely (I know COVID happened, but it happened to every college in the country).

 

[Gophers_4life]

Much like Pitino, there's also this in his buyout:

Regent Steve Sviggum said Johnson’s buyout is “skillfully negotiated” and there would be no buyout paid out if coach Johnson were to find a “comparable” position, including head-coaching or assistant job in NCAA.

I'm fairly confident Ben will be able to land at least an assistant job whenever Minnesota decides to cut their losses and try to become a Big Ten basketball program again.

Contract of Gophers men’s basketball coach Ben Johnson approved by U regents

The University of Minnesota’s Board of Regents unanimously approved the contract of new Gophers men’s basketball coach Ben Johnson on Wednesday. The regents voted 11-0 with one absence; it came aft…

www.twincities.com

Didn't Bo Pelini take the Youngstown State head job (FCS level) because of this exact reason and to purposefully force Nebraska to pay the buy-out?

Thought I heard that somewhere.

 

[bga1]

You don't want to turn off the next hire by looking cheap(Twins). Especially if you can do it without costing much.

The next hire goes off what you offer him, not what you paid the previous guy. If there is a next hire and they don't go big time, then they are nuts. I HOPE there isn't a next hire for 20 years. This was a stupidly negotiated contract- done for optics for those who are light on financial acumen and heavy on equity issues.

 

[cjbfbp]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, we're our own worst enemy. We're polite and meek to a fault. There's a reason our major pro teams have gone 117 straight seasons without sniffing a title.

As someone who grew up in PA and a fan of Philadelphia sports teams, I would agree with the characterization of Minnesota fans being relatively meek. I once attended a Timberwolves game here against Philadelphia. The Wolves led the entire game, often by a big margin, until Philadelphia came back and put in the winning shot at the buzzer. The reaction of the crowd was a collective sigh and everyone pretty much exited quietly afterward. I chuckled a bit after thinking of the difference if the game had been at Philadelphia and the outcome reversed. You would have heard a thunderous cacophony of boos.

I do wonder, though, if it's less about being "polite" and more about diversification of interests among the population and perhaps a cultural tendency to just not take sports so seriously. The fan base on this site is pretty rabid but I don't encounter much intensity (or even feeling) about Gopher sports outside of here.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I actually don't think this makes that much of a difference.

Despite having a buyout, Pitino probably jumped at the New Mexico job because of the opportunity to continue being a HC. The opportunity, in the long term, had more monetary value than his buyout because if he sits out and collects his buyout, who knows when he'd get another HC opportunity.

For Johnson, he would likely get an assistant job somewhere for $200K. Well, I don't think that opportunity is worth the $2 million. He could sit out for a year, collect the buyout and then a similar opportunity is likely sitting there and he has another $2 million in the bank.

Whoever negotiated the buyout on our end butchered it. I don't think Ben's team was really negotiating against us at arms length - I think we could have had him for $800K without much of a buyout.

You may be right, but assistant was put in there for a reason. Even if he sat out a year, $2 million is still significantly less than $8 million. With Ben still being somewhat early in his career, sitting out a year may not be his best option long term.

To your latter point, was the U really negotiating with Ben, or were they negotiating against optics?

 

[cjbfbp]

The next hire goes off what you offer him, not what you paid the previous guy. If there is a next hire and they don't go big time, then they are nuts. I HOPE there isn't a next hire for 20 years. This was a stupidly negotiated contract- done for optics for those who are light on financial acumen and heavy on equity issues.

I would agree about the equity implications but I don't think this hire says much about financial acumen one way or the other. They paid him at the bottom of the league (a placement he deserved) but you can't pay a Big Ten basketball head coach $500 K per year. You have to be at least in the ballpark.

 

[cjbfbp]

I don't dispute that. I was responding to someone who said his success in football and hockey bought him a lot of equity, and I was pointing out that he really hasn't improved the hockey programs from where they were before he arrived. If you are going to do one right, football is definitely the one to do it in (and I say that as someone who is a bigger hockey fan than football one), but that doesn't establish a track record of turning multiple programs around, And he actually cut some sports entirely (I know COVID happened, but it happened to every college in the country).

True, but that's only a big concern if you weight all programs equally and I think few fans actually do that. Also, I don't think the record of overall wins and losses is the primary concern when it comes to the actual evaluators of athletic directors. Many fans tend to view college ADs like professional sports teams' general managers. They're not. ADs are primarily business managers for a department that controls a range of athletic teams and I think revenues and expenses are more of a concern that overall success of teams.

 

[Mikie S]

1) What happens if opposing teams continue to set team records for victory margins against the Gophers?
2) What happens if attendance plummets from its already historic lows?
3) What happens if several of the most promising freshmen decide to transfer out & Year Three of this regime becomes a repeat of Year Zero.

Mr Coyle, what will it take to convince you to start over.
Am I the only one that wants this ended?

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

1) What happens if opposing teams continue to set team records for victory margins against the Gophers?
2) What happens if attendance plummets from its already historic lows?
3) What happens if several of the most promising freshmen decide to transfer out & Year Three of this regime becomes a repeat of Year Zero.

Mr Coyle, what will it take to convince you to start over.
Am I the only one that wants this ended?

The Univ of MN is not going to fire a black HC in less than 3 years, more than likely 4. It's time to face the reality of the situation.

 

[Mikie S]

The Univ of MN is not going to fire a black HC in less than 3 years, more than likely 4. It's time to face the reality of the situation.

I don't disagree. But there has got to be a tipping point.

Maybe a QUALIFIED up & coming black coach can be identified? You know, maybe someone with an established winning record, someone who's been mentored by an upper level coach, someone who has a history of winning as a player, an assistant coach & head coach? Our current coach is none of those.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I don't dispute that. I was responding to someone who said his success in football and hockey bought him a lot of equity, and I was pointing out that he really hasn't improved the hockey programs from where they were before he arrived. If you are going to do one right, football is definitely the one to do it in (and I say that as someone who is a bigger hockey fan than football one), but that doesn't establish a track record of turning multiple programs around, And he actually cut some sports entirely (I know COVID happened, but it happened to every college in the country).

The people in this town used to be more rabid, and also to a fault. Obviously we're the town that participated in a brawl at Williams Arena and threw a whiskey bottle at an NFL official, both in the 1970s. In the 80s, the Dome was almost incredibly loud for the '87 World Series, with obnoxious fans blowing whistles, for pete's sake. When Mike Lynn fired Les Steckel after one season, he cited fan anger in his press conference. Going back to the great Gopher football teams in the 30s and 40s, I've read that the fan base practically ran Fritz Crisler out of town, even though he had the team on the upswing. Not to mention them hanging Murray Warmath in effigy in 1959.

Things have changed around here, and I can only speculate, but it's definitely cultural. It could go hand in hand with the loss of hope caused by being beaten down so many times by so many circumstances. I think there's a majority sector of the fan base who feels in their hearts that it's impossible to compete or even that we're undeserving. How many times have you heard it asked here about Gopher or pro sports, "Why would a free agent/recruit want to come here?" We never had that inferiority complex when I was growing up.

 

[MNVCGUY]

1) What happens if opposing teams continue to set team records for victory margins against the Gophers?
2) What happens if attendance plummets from its already historic lows?
3) What happens if several of the most promising freshmen decide to transfer out & Year Three of this regime becomes a repeat of Year Zero.

Mr Coyle, what will it take to convince you to start over.
Am I the only one that wants this ended?

If all those things are still happening at this point next year we will have a new coach for the 24-25 basketball season.

The only thing that would get Johnson fired after this season would be some sort of off the court scandal of some kind. So as much as some may want to see this ended now the reality is that Johnson will have a minimum of one more season to prove he can do the job.

 

[bga1]

I don't disagree. But there has got to be a tipping point.

Maybe a QUALIFIED up & coming black coach can be identified? You know, maybe someone with an established winning record, someone who's been mentored by an upper level coach, someone who has a history of winning as a player, an assistant coach & head coach? Our current coach is none of those.

When you fire a coach you hired after three years- you are going to get it coming at you from both ends. It is the admission of a major screw up, a historically bad hire on the one hand and on the other hand you are going to get slammed by people who will say he wasn't given enough time.
He's going to get a minimum of 4 years. I hope he proves to be successful by then (has his first NCAA bid in hand at a bare minimum).

That Clem Haskins comparison people are making gets really real in a hurry next year as Clem made it to the Sweet 16 that 3rd year....

 

[MNVCGUY]

When you fire a coach you hired after three years- you are going to get it coming at you from both ends. It is the admission of a major screw up, a historically bad hire on the one hand and on the other hand you are going to get slammed by people who will say he wasn't given enough time.
He's going to get a minimum of 4 years. I hope he proves to be successful by then (has his first NCAA bid in hand at a bare minimum).

That Clem Haskins comparison people are making gets really real in a hurry next year as Clem made it to the Sweet 16 that 3rd year....

In general I agree that Johnson is very likely to get at least 4 years but I don't know that is a slam dunk. I don't think the standard for improvement in year 3 will be huge but I do think there will have to be some clear tangible signs he is moving things in the right direction. I don't know exactly what that would be but a 3rd year like the first two would make it really hard to justify a 4th.

 

[Bad Gopher]

As someone who grew up in PA and a fan of Philadelphia sports teams, I would agree with the characterization of Minnesota fans being relatively meek. I once attended a Timberwolves game here against Philadelphia. The Wolves led the entire game, often by a big margin, until Philadelphia came back and put in the winning shot at the buzzer. The reaction of the crowd was a collective sigh and everyone pretty much exited quietly afterward. I chuckled a bit after thinking of the difference if the game had been at Philadelphia and the outcome reversed. You would have heard a thunderous cacophony of boos.

I do wonder, though, if it's less about being "polite" and more about diversification of interests among the population and perhaps a cultural tendency to just not take sports so seriously. The fan base on this site is pretty rabid but I don't encounter much intensity (or even feeling) about Gopher sports outside of here.

The people in this town used to be more rabid, and also to a fault. Obviously we're the town that participated in a brawl at Williams Arena and threw a whiskey bottle at an NFL official, both in the 1970s. In the 80s, the Dome was almost incredibly loud for the '87 World Series, with obnoxious fans blowing whistles, for pete's sake. When Mike Lynn fired Les Steckel after one season, he cited fan anger in his press conference. Going back to the great Gopher football teams in the 30s and 40s, I've read that the fan base practically ran Fritz Crisler out of town, even though he had the team on the upswing. Not to mention them hanging Murray Warmath in effigy in 1959.

Things have changed around here, and I can only speculate, but it's definitely cultural. It could go hand in hand with the loss of hope caused by being beaten down so many times by so many circumstances. I think there's a majority sector of the fan base who feels in their hearts that it's impossible to compete or even that we're undeserving. How many times have you heard it asked here about Gopher or pro sports, "Why would a free agent/recruit want to come here?" We never had that inferiority complex when I was growing up.

 

[leib0039]

The issue with the Gophers/MN sports in general is apathy. We all know we are never winning so we either don't invest in it or accept loses. CBJ is a prime example. We could have gone with the spendy/high profile guy but ohh just good ol MN just went with the nice local kid and if he's bad ohh well good for him. See Cousins, hes perfectly average, he should have been cast aside already but we like the average teams. Same thing when CBJ eventually gets axed, we would NEVER consider a Chris Beard, we as a collective don't have the stomach for it, we will hire Tim Miles or some boring re tread.

 

[bga1]

In general I agree that Johnson is very likely to get at least 4 years but I don't know that is a slam dunk. I don't think the standard for improvement in year 3 will be huge but I do think there will have to be some clear tangible signs he is moving things in the right direction. I don't know exactly what that would be but a 3rd year like the first two would make it really hard to justify a 4th.

There is enough talent here where it should actually be hard not to win at least 5 games in the Big Ten next year. If that is the result it will be sold as progress. I suppose if it is a one or two win season they might cut bait but I just don't even know if it is possible to be that incompetent (again).

 

[Lion King]

I actually don't think this makes that much of a difference.

Despite having a buyout, Pitino probably jumped at the New Mexico job because of the opportunity to continue being a HC. The opportunity, in the long term, had more monetary value than his buyout because if he sits out and collects his buyout, who knows when he'd get another HC opportunity.

For Johnson, he would likely get an assistant job somewhere for $200K. Well, I don't think that opportunity is worth the $2 million. He could sit out for a year, collect the buyout and then a similar opportunity is likely sitting there and he has another $2 million in the bank.

Whoever negotiated the buyout on our end butchered it. I don't think Ben's team was really negotiating against us at arms length - I think we could have had him for $800K without much of a buyout.

This discussion is meaningless.
Ben will be the coach for as long as he wants to be, firing him or buying him out is never going to happen.
Let's pray, if that's ok, Ben gets it figured out & we're all happy winning a title now & then.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

1) What happens if opposing teams continue to set team records for victory margins against the Gophers?
2) What happens if attendance plummets from its already historic lows?
3) What happens if several of the most promising freshmen decide to transfer out & Year Three of this regime becomes a repeat of Year Zero.

Mr Coyle, what will it take to convince you to start over.
Am I the only one that wants this ended?

You’re not the only one.

 

[Dupreefor3]

1. If Ben Johnson's buyout is anywhere near $8 million, that's a fireable offense for Mark Coyle
2. There was no reason to pay Ben Johnson more than $1.5 million annually or to extend him after the first last place season in 30 years. If we were in year 2 of a 5 year/7.5 million dollar contract, a reasonable buyout amonunt would be 2.5 million on April 1 (50% of salary remaining). So again this would be on Coyle.
3. Iowa State paid between 8.5-10 million dollars in buyouts between buying out Prohm and buying Otz out of his UNLV contract (https://247sports.com/college/iowa-...cusses-finances-of-coaching-change-162864272/). If Iowa State can swing that in Ames, Iowa without the benefit of Big Ten dollars and the uncertain (at best) future of the Big 12, and Minnesota cannot, that speaks very poorly of Mark Coyle and his ability to both manage funds and fundraise.

Ben's annual salary is last in the big ten. Truth of the matter is he's going to get four years unless something embarrassing happens off the court, than it won't really matter how good or bad any improvement is next year. Best case scenario Ben's big ten record will be 7-33, worse case 5-35. If we have another bad year next year and Ben's career record is 9-51 or something like that than maybe Coyle is forces to make a move.
I'll concede that there has been some bad luck with injuries this year, Carrington, Battle and Garcia have all missed time, others are playing hurt, obviously Fox and Ihnen are out all year, but what really sealed are fate this year was not bringing in another Loewe or Stephens type at guard, Battle just is not a wing and I can't see a scenario where we can keep all four of Battle, Garcia, Payne and Evans happy next year and see any improvement. The roster hos to be retooled, some tough convos will need to be have or it's going to be more of the same. The only guard that was playing the right amount of minutes and in the right spot was Carrington this year and he's been hurt. Cooper can't guard, he's good on offense, but if he comes back, he can slide over to the one in a secondary role for like 5-10 minutes but the bulk of his time needs to be at the two spot. Samuels and Henley should not be playing more than 4-8 minutes a night this year at this level. Think Ben has done well with high school recruiting and getting Asuma in 24 and Wilson in 25 would be huge. If I'm right about that side of things the wins will come as more guys come into the program and the current crop makes a leap in the off season. Just need to make sure the transfers this year fit.

 

[bga1]

The issue with the Gophers/MN sports in general is apathy. We all know we are never winning so we either don't invest in it or accept loses. CBJ is a prime example. We could have gone with the spendy/high profile guy but ohh just good ol MN just went with the nice local kid and if he's bad ohh well good for him. See Cousins, hes perfectly average, he should have been cast aside already but we like the average teams. Same thing when CBJ eventually gets axed, we would NEVER consider a Chris Beard, we as a collective don't have the stomach for it, we will hire Tim Miles or some boring re tread.

The apathy starts with the lack of commitment- going back a long way - to Gopher basketball by the U of M. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there isn't a lot of animus towards the basketball program by elite academic types who view our scandal ridden past as a scar on their pristine academic culture.
Look how they have treated our athletes when issues have arisen - Royce White and Lynch to name a few. Yes, they may well have deserved their fate- not sure but they weren't exactly given fair due process either.

They have skimped on remodeling the Barn and they have skimped on coaches other than in the Tubby Smith hiring where they went for a big name.