"Secret" scrimmage against Colorado State

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
I've been saying it for a few months, but if Henley and Samuels are playing big minutes and/or starting at the 2, we are in a lot of trouble at the guard position.
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What’s big minutes? What if Battle and Cooper are really good?
 

Gopherfan84 said:
What’s big minutes? What if Battle and Cooper are really good?
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Some posters are concerned with the depth of guards on this team. Samuels and Henley have already been labeled as recruitment misses by some individuals... Samuels based on his underwhelming years at Dartmouth and Henley being under recruited by other Power 5 conferences and being too tall to be a guard.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
Secret Scrimmages


BIG TEN
Illinois – Oct. 22 vs. Kansas in St. Louis
Indiana – None
Iowa – Oct. 22 vs. Kansas City
Maryland – Oct. 22 at Virginia; Oct. 29 at Villanova
Michigan – TBD at Florida State
Michigan State – Oct. 23 at Tennessee
Minnesota – Oct. 22 vs. Colorado State
Nebraska – Oct. 30 at Colorado (charity exhibition)
Northwestern – Oct. 29 vs. Iowa State in Davenport, Iowa
Ohio State – Oct. 23 vs. Wake Forest at Concord University (West Va.)
Penn State – Oct. 23 vs. Rhode Island in Hackettstown, NJ; Oct. 30 vs. George Mason
Purdue – Oct. 29 vs. Cincinnati in Indianapolis
Rutgers – Oct. 22 at North Carolina; Oct. 30 vs. Fairfield (charity exhibition)
Wisconsin – Oct. 23 vs. UNI at University of Dubuque

Colorado State also has an Augsburg player on the roster this year. Joe Palmer of Faribault HS. MIAC player of the year last season.
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Nebraska is doing it right. This whole "secret" thing is so dumb. Michigan State posted highlights on their instagram.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
I've been saying it for a few months, but if Henley and Samuels are playing big minutes and/or starting at the 2, we are in a lot of trouble at the guard position.
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Either Carrington or Samuels will start and the other will play substantial minutes. But I'm not sure why he is more that much more concerning than Loewe/Stephens/Sutherlin.
 


Gopherfan84 said:
What’s big minutes? What if Battle and Cooper are really good?
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Both of those players are already starters. We still need a 5th and rotation players. We already know Battle is really good, but he's not a guard. Cooper is a pass first PG and I don't believe will be more than a 4th or 5th scorer.
 


howeda7 said:
Either Carrington or Samuels will start and the other will play substantial minutes. But I'm not sure why he is more that much more concerning than Loewe/Stephens/Sutherlin.
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I'd take Loewe/Stephens in a heartbeat this season over Carrington, Samuels, or Henley. Samuels isn't a B1G player. I've never been very high on Carrington, I think he's a role player long term, and Samuels/Henley seem to be getting more talk about playing the 2 than he does.

Henley is similar to Betts to me. Both have long-term upside and potential, but neither should be playing this year.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Both of those players are already starters. We still need a 5th and rotation players. We already know Battle is really good, but he's not a guard. Cooper is a pass first PG and I don't believe will be more than a 4th or 5th scorer.
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Battle will be a wing pretty much full time except for when they go small with Garcia as the 5. Battle lost weight to be quicker as well. I don’t think 5th starters are as good as you are making them. Carrington or Henley can fill in and be the 5th imo. If Cooper averages 8-9 ppg and shoots at a high clip like he has done his whole career, I think he’s fine for a 3rd option. Payne will also be right around the 8-10 ppg range too. I agree our weakness is Carrington/Henley, but I don’t think it puts us in “big” trouble. I still think we are a bubble team.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
1 good game doesn't mean a whole lot. Over the course of the season he was a below average player on a bad Dartmouth team.
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The same could be said about Garcia last year. He had 26 against Purdue then averaged about 9ppg.
Zip against BC, 2 Georgia Tech, 4 Tenn, 6 Kentucky, etc. Yet virtually everyone has given Garcia a pass to be in the same company as Battle and possibly BIG honors. I hope that will be the case.

All I'm saying is don't write off Samuel until we see him play as a Gopher.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Battle will be a wing pretty much full time except for when they go small with Garcia as the 5. Battle lost weight to be quicker as well. I don’t think 5th starters are as good as you are making them. Carrington or Henley can fill in and be the 5th imo. If Cooper averages 8-9 ppg and shoots at a high clip like he has done his whole career, I think he’s fine for a 3rd option. Payne will also be right around the 8-10 ppg range too. I agree our weakness is Carrington/Henley, but I don’t think it puts us in “big” trouble. I still think we are a bubble team.
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Dartmouth's best player Brendan Barry, who was far better than Samuels, went from Dartmouth to Temple then back. While he was at Temple, he was the 7th leading scorer on a bad team. So he wasn't even good enough to be a '5th starter' for a bad team in a lower conference.

Scoring wise, Cooper's career numbers are pretty similar to what Loewe did for the Gophers last year and that's at Morehead State. He was their 4th leading scorer, just like Loewe was here. Those numbers are far more likely to regress jumping to the B1G than increase. Even if Cooper can equal Loewe's offensive output, we still have Willis and Stephens to replace who were better than him. I don't believe you can do that with just frontcourt players. Teams will crash down on our frontcourt and make Cooper/Samuels shoot, and neither are good outside shooters.

This team has been flipped. We went from zero frontcourt depth and talent last year, to having enough to be a bubble team this season. Now we lack the guard depth/talent to win many B1G games, similar to our frontcourt last year. If we are a bubble team with Samuels/Henley starting/playing big minutes, then I will consider Ben a miracle worker. It's very unlikely though.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
The same could be said about Garcia last year. He had 26 against Purdue then averaged about 9ppg.
Zip against BC, 2 Georgia Tech, 4 Tenn, 6 Kentucky, etc. Yet virtually everyone has given Garcia a pass to be in the same company as Battle and possibly BIG honors. I hope that will be the case.

All I'm saying is don't write off Samuel until we see him play as a Gopher.
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I agree with you on Garcia. He may have the most natural talent of anyone who has worn a Gophers jersey in a while. But he still has a lot to prove on the court as UNC was very average when he played, and Marquette improved after he left.
 




GopherWeatherGuy said:
Both of those players are already starters. We still need a 5th and rotation players. We already know Battle is really good, but he's not a guard. Cooper is a pass first PG and I don't believe will be more than a 4th or 5th scorer.
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With Battle and Garcia we want a point guard who is pass first, pass second, and pass third. Then play defense.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Dartmouth's best player Brendan Barry, who was far better than Samuels, went from Dartmouth to Temple then back. While he was at Temple, he was the 7th leading scorer on a bad team. So he wasn't even good enough to be a '5th starter' for a bad team in a lower conference.

Scoring wise, Cooper's career numbers are pretty similar to what Loewe did for the Gophers last year and that's at Morehead State. He was their 4th leading scorer, just like Loewe was here. Those numbers are far more likely to regress jumping to the B1G than increase. Even if Cooper can equal Loewe's offensive output, we still have Willis and Stephens to replace who were better than him. I don't believe you can do that with just frontcourt players. Teams will crash down on our frontcourt and make Cooper/Samuels shoot, and neither are good outside shooters.

This team has been flipped. We went from zero frontcourt depth and talent last year, to having enough to be a bubble team this season. Now we lack the guard depth/talent to win many B1G games, similar to our frontcourt last year. If we are a bubble team with Samuels/Henley starting/playing big minutes, then I will consider Ben a miracle worker. It's very unlikely though.
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I agree on Samuels. I think he’s an 8-10 min guy and if he’s playing 20+ In conference play I’ll be worried. If we are comparing to last year I look at it this way.
Payne>Curry- Payne is so underrated. I know people who coached against Oturo and Payne and they all like Payne more.
Garcia=Battle-Garcia like you mentioned is supremely talented. He’s back home and will be the man again. That will help him rebound from a tough situation last year.
Battle>Loewe- Loewe was very solid imo. Good defender and better than Battle there, but Battle will be all B1G this year if he basically puts up the stats he did last year.
Carrington/Henley<Stephens- Honestly I think this could be an equal. Stephens did a nice job, but he shouldn’t have been a starter. Carrington can score just as well as Stephens and more recognized in HS. I don’t know enough about Henley yet since I seen him. I’m comfortable with Carrington as I’ve gotten to see him. He won’t be expected to do much.
Willis>Cooper- They will be expected to have different roles. Cooper needs to be a distributor.
Bench:
Suetherlin=Henley/Carrington- Loved Suetherlins grit but he lacked skill. Carrington is more skilled and I’m assuming the same from Henley just based on his recruiting profile. Suetherlin was a better defender than both as a senior vs those two as freshman.
This years Thompson>Last Year Thompson- I don’t know how he’s gotten worse.
Samuels>Daniels-Different positions, but similar spots in the rotation. Samuels can defend and at least will be smart coming from the Ivy League
JOJ>Ramberg-JOJ was the best player on his AAU team last year. Ramberg while a great worker was a walk on.

I think our starting line up and bench will be better and I think the conference is weaker. I don’t think a jump into the bubble is crazy or even a miracle.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I've been saying it for a few months, but if Henley and Samuels are playing big minutes and/or starting at the 2, we are in a lot of trouble at the guard position.
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So if they've been good at practice and they are best option we are in trouble? Didn't realize you were at our practices! Tell me what you actually know what's been going on at practice. Would love to know.
 

Great discussion but people are forgetting about the many transfer players who improve under a new coach or within a new system. Players often transfer to find a better 'fit.' It is nearly impossible to look at stats and predict what a player will do for their new team. Sometimes things just click with a change of scenery.

As for the first year players, I tend to throw high school stats out the window... especially in states without shot clocks. I look, instead, to how the players performed in the summer after their junior years. All of our newbies garnered attention for their improved play during that time.

I am looking forward to getting a feel for this squad over the next few weeks!
 

Seems like we maybe shouldn't hit the panic button with all the speculation considering nobody has seen anybody play in 2022. At least wait until you see us struggle with St Olaf :)
Keep in mind Colorado St is 46 in KenPom...we are 109. Add Battle's 30 we win by 26.
Play Garcia the 2nd half we win by 40.
It all means nothing.
 
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howeda7 said:
Nebraska is doing it right. This whole "secret" thing is so dumb. Michigan State posted highlights on their instagram.
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MSU has a HOF coach and a roster full of studs. They have a huge coaching and talent advantage in practically every game they play. Izzo could write a doctoral thesis on what happened in their scrimmage and release it for public consumption, and it still wouldn't matter as to how they'll finish this season.

Our situation is, ah, slightly different.

Hoiberg has a career .153 winning percentage in the Big Ten. He's possibly the last person I'd seek to emulate if I were Ben Johnson.
 

so back to the "secret" scrimmages, why again are these a thing? I am all for putting them on BTN+ type thing, let people in for $5, give the money to charity. I am sure the coaches dont want it but i think it would be kind of fun to see them stop the game and go hey this is the play or we want you here type thing. Would be a little more than you see in the game.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Both of those players are already starters. We still need a 5th and rotation players. We already know Battle is really good, but he's not a guard. Cooper is a pass first PG and I don't believe will be more than a 4th or 5th scorer.
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Losing Ihnen really hurts I guess, with him they could have brought the freshman guards along at a development pace. I didn't see Kalschuer being as productive as a freshman so who knows, one of them may surprise.
 

leib0039 said:
so back to the "secret" scrimmages, why again are these a thing? I am all for putting them on BTN+ type thing, let people in for $5, give the money to charity. I am sure the coaches dont want it but i think it would be kind of fun to see them stop the game and go hey this is the play or we want you here type thing. Would be a little more than you see in the game.
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They’ve always been a thing and they used to actually be secret. Coaches value it and most wish the list didn’t get out I’m sure. NCAA doesn’t allow them to be shared or open the public I believe so that’s why there are not any options for television/attendance.
 

jovs said:
I didn't see Kalschuer being as productive as a freshman so who knows, one of them may surprise.
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I think that's the central question. Can Payne do a reasonable imitation of the freshman Oturu and can Carrington or Henley do a reasonable imitation of the freshman Kalschuer of the 2019 team? It's reasonable to envision Garcia being about as productive as the senior Murphy on that team and Battle being as productive as the junior Coffey. The 2019 team had no true point guard other than Washington (who Pitino played little, or not at all, through much of the season) so this team, with two true point guards, should have better point guard play.

Then we go to the backups. I can't imagine Treyton Thompson being as good of a backup as Matz although he'll probably hit more outside shots. As to Ola-Joseph, one of Henley/Carrington, and Betts, I haven't a clue. I suppose it is possible that Johnson could start both of the transfer point guards instead of starting one of the freshman guards OR that both of those guards (whether starting or not) would have more minutes than either of the freshman guards.
 


cjbfbp said:
I think that's the central question. Can Payne do a reasonable imitation of the freshman Oturu and can Carrington or Henley do a reasonable imitation of the freshman Kalschuer of the 2019 team? It's reasonable to envision Garcia being about as productive as the senior Murphy on that team and Battle being as productive as the junior Coffey. The 2019 team had no true point guard other than Washington (who Pitino played little, or not at all, through much of the season) so this team, with two true point guards, should have better point guard play.

Then we go to the backups. I can't imagine Treyton Thompson being as good of a backup as Matz although he'll probably hit more outside shots. As to Ola-Joseph, one of Henley/Carrington, and Betts, I haven't a clue. I suppose it is possible that Johnson could start both of the transfer point guards instead of starting one of the freshman guards OR that both of those guards (whether starting or not) would have more minutes than either of the freshman guards.
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Battle and Garcia need to account for about 40% - 45% of our scoring to be competitive. Having a true PG in Ta'lon will be massive in getting them open looks.

We struggled with offensive sets later in the season last year. I felt that Willis not being a true PG hurt us, especially when teams started doing the overly aggressive ball screen hedge at the top of the key. It really stalled the offense, and clean looks were hard to come by. Willis was also gassed, and the defensive effort was often lax (I can't blame him). A true backup PG in Samuels will be huge, even if it is only 8 - 10 minutes per game. We didn't have that luxury last year.

Having a physical presence like Payne will lead to 4-6 garbage points per game and take away 6 - 8 garbage points from the opposing team. This swing alone would have won us multiple games last year.

Scouting reports will be all about limiting Battle and Garcia. All we need from our #2 guard is to hit open shots and play defense. That's what Gabe did his freshman year. It can be one of Carrington/Henley doing this or working as a platoon. From what I've seen of Carrington, he's a high-IQ player, a pure shooter, and puts the team first. I haven't seen much of Henley, but he has some unique physical tools and was reported to get after defensively as a high schooler.

Finally, I think Matz is a good comp for Treyton. If you remember, Matz didn't get any run until later in the season.

Matz: Poor rebounder, non-existent shot, good defensive instincts/shot-blocking prowess
TT: Poor rebounder, decent shot for a big, poor defensive instincts/shot-blocking prowess

If TT can improve to a serviceable rebounder and defender this year, a role similar to Matz is likely, playing spot duty at the 4/5.
 


topos said:
Battle and Garcia need to account for about 40% - 45% of our scoring to be competitive. Having a true PG in Ta'lon will be massive in getting them open looks.

We struggled with offensive sets later in the season last year. I felt that Willis not being a true PG hurt us, especially when teams started doing the overly aggressive ball screen hedge at the top of the key. It really stalled the offense, and clean looks were hard to come by. Willis was also gassed, and the defensive effort was often lax (I can't blame him). A true backup PG in Samuels will be huge, even if it is only 8 - 10 minutes per game. We didn't have that luxury last year.

Having a physical presence like Payne will lead to 4-6 garbage points per game and take away 6 - 8 garbage points from the opposing team. This swing alone would have won us multiple games last year.

Scouting reports will be all about limiting Battle and Garcia. All we need from our #2 guard is to hit open shots and play defense. That's what Gabe did his freshman year. It can be one of Carrington/Henley doing this or working as a platoon. From what I've seen of Carrington, he's a high-IQ player, a pure shooter, and puts the team first. I haven't seen much of Henley, but he has some unique physical tools and was reported to get after defensively as a high schooler.

Finally, I think Matz is a good comp for Treyton. If you remember, Matz didn't get any run until later in the season.

Matz: Poor rebounder, non-existent shot, good defensive instincts/shot-blocking prowess
TT: Poor rebounder, decent shot for a big, poor defensive instincts/shot-blocking prowess

If TT can improve to a serviceable rebounder and defender this year, a role similar to Matz is likely, playing spot duty at the 4/5.
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Actually, Matz got good minutes off the bench earlier in the season but saw his time diminish to very little when Pitino opted to play Curry after returning from the injury. Later in the season Curry was shut down again and Matz's playing time increased. Matz was a so-so rebounder per minute that season; his 7.7 per 40 minutes figure was well behind Murphy and Oturu but good enough for 3rd place on the team. Treyton's number was 5.8; below Sutherlin's and not much above Willis.
 

leib0039 said:
so back to the "secret" scrimmages, why again are these a thing? I am all for putting them on BTN+ type thing, let people in for $5, give the money to charity. I am sure the coaches dont want it but i think it would be kind of fun to see them stop the game and go hey this is the play or we want you here type thing. Would be a little more than you see in the game.
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It's a practice for the benefit of players and coaches, not fans.
 

to be sure, I am not suggesting that Henley is a bust. just commenting on the fact that, according to the scrimmage notes, he "struggled."

going from HS to a major D1 Conference is a big adjustment. some players will adjust more easily or more quickly than others. if a FR had some stage fright in his first time facing college opponents, that would not be shocking.

I would certainly not be surprised to see Cooper and Samuels starting, or at least see Samuels getting more run at SG early just due to his greater experience. bring the FR along in the non-conference schedule so hopefully, they can be contributors by the time the conference season starts.
from all accounts, Henley is a good athlete. Carrington is supposed to be a very smart player. now it's up to the Coaches to get them ready to play.
 

leib0039 said:
so back to the "secret" scrimmages, why again are these a thing? I am all for putting them on BTN+ type thing, let people in for $5, give the money to charity. I am sure the coaches dont want it but i think it would be kind of fun to see them stop the game and go hey this is the play or we want you here type thing. Would be a little more than you see in the game.
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Chances are that they have more than 3 officials and they are rotating for practice. Also they likely have certain rules in place for these scrimmages. And it costs $$ to have people come to the arena. They are all different and have no rules to follow.

It's meant to be an extension of practice and something they aren't necessarily interested in the public seeing.
 

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