Scoggins/Kill Article

[Some guy]

3.
After taking over a wrecked program, Kill fielded a better team each year he was at Minnesota*, except in his final season, when his health collapsed and he was forced to retire. (*win totals: 3, 6, 8, 8, and 4 in a partial season)

After taking over a winning program, Fleck peaked in his third season, winning 11 games with a number of the previous regime's players still on his roster. Since then he has endured two seasons with a losing record, and since 2021 has only presided over a season-upon-season improvement once (2024).

lol. Kill quit during a losing season and didn’t stick around long enough to ever have a season with zero holdovers from the last coach…wait he did. And the team went 5-7 and he quit mid season.
You’re faulting fleck for fielding a losing season with all his players but not going to fault kill for never even finishing a season with all his players?

Kill fielded a better team every time except 20% of the time.
-Brian Fantana

They’re both good coaches

 

[everybody knows my name]

They’re both good coaches
They both win less than I would prefer

This is a great post.

 

[Gophers1992]

A few observations.

1.
Kill took over a program that had gone 3-9 (2-6) in the previous season, and made it better.
Fleck took over a program that had gone 9-4 (5-4) in the previous season, and made it worse.

2.
Kill was named Big Ten Coach of the Year in 2014.
Fleck was named co-Coach of the Year in 2019, sharing the honor with Ryan Day.

3.
After taking over a wrecked program, Kill fielded a better team each year he was at Minnesota*, except in his final season, when his health collapsed and he was forced to retire. (*win totals: 3, 6, 8, 8, and 4 in a partial season)

After taking over a winning program, Fleck peaked in his third season, winning 11 games with a number of the previous regime's players still on his roster. Since then he has endured two seasons with a losing record, and since 2021 has only presided over a season-upon-season improvement once (2024).

4.
Kill's run at Minnesota was cut short due to intractable health problems, but his overall record as a head coach is 175-115 for a winning percentage of .603.

Fleck has now had nine years at Minnesota, making him the second-longest tenured coach in the Big Ten, and his overall record as a head coach is 93-64 for a winning percentage of .592.

5.
A lot of Gopher fans are dicks. Some of them are reading observation 5 right now.

Surely you understand what a disingenuous statement this is.

 

[everybody knows my name]

lol. Kill quit during a losing season and didn’t stick around long enough to ever have a season with zero holdovers from the last coach…wait he did. And the team went 5-7 and he quit mid season.
You’re faulting fleck for fielding a losing season with all his players but not going to fault kill for never even finishing a season with all his players?

Kill fielded a better team every time except 20% of the time.
-Brian Fantana

I'm not finding fault with Fleck. I'm merely comparing. Draw your own stupid conclusions.

It's stupid to characterize Kill's forced retirement as "quitting during a losing season"

 

[btowngopher]

A few observations.

1.
Kill took over a program that had gone 3-9 (2-6) in the previous season, and made it better.
Fleck took over a program that had gone 9-4 (5-4) in the previous season, and made it worse.

2.
Kill was named Big Ten Coach of the Year in 2014.
Fleck was named co-Coach of the Year in 2019, sharing the honor with Ryan Day.

3.
After taking over a wrecked program, Kill fielded a better team each year he was at Minnesota*, except in his final season, when his health collapsed and he was forced to retire. (*win totals: 3, 6, 8, 8, and 4 in a partial season)

After taking over a winning program, Fleck peaked in his third season, winning 11 games with a number of the previous regime's players still on his roster. Since then he has endured two seasons with a losing record, and since 2021 has only presided over a season-upon-season improvement once (2024).

4.
Kill's run at Minnesota was cut short due to intractable health problems, but his overall record as a head coach is 175-115 for a winning percentage of .603.

Fleck has now had nine years at Minnesota, making him the second-longest tenured coach in the Big Ten, and his overall record as a head coach is 93-64 for a winning percentage of .592.

5.
A lot of Gopher fans are dicks. Some of them are reading observation 5 right now.

My observation is it’s hard to find good data to support the idea that Kill is a better coach than Fleck.

 

[Gophers1992]

A few observations.

1.
Kill took over a program that had gone 3-9 (2-6) in the previous season, and made it better.
Fleck took over a program that had gone 9-4 (5-4) in the previous season, and made it worse.

2.
Kill was named Big Ten Coach of the Year in 2014.
Fleck was named co-Coach of the Year in 2019, sharing the honor with Ryan Day.

3.
After taking over a wrecked program, Kill fielded a better team each year he was at Minnesota*, except in his final season, when his health collapsed and he was forced to retire. (*win totals: 3, 6, 8, 8, and 4 in a partial season)

After taking over a winning program, Fleck peaked in his third season, winning 11 games with a number of the previous regime's players still on his roster. Since then he has endured two seasons with a losing record, and since 2021 has only presided over a season-upon-season improvement once (2024).

4.
Kill's run at Minnesota was cut short due to intractable health problems, but his overall record as a head coach is 175-115 for a winning percentage of .603.

Fleck has now had nine years at Minnesota, making him the second-longest tenured coach in the Big Ten, and his overall record as a head coach is 93-64 for a winning percentage of .592.

5.
A lot of Gopher fans are dicks. Some of them are reading observation 5 right now.

Another way of saying this is that PJ has had 3 seasons where he won more games than any season JK had.

 

[everybody knows my name]

My observation is it’s hard to find good data to support the idea that Kill is a better coach than Fleck.

If I was trying to support the idea that Kill is the better coach, I would have written that post differently.

My aim is to show that Fleck isn't worthy of bootlicking and Kill doesn't deserve the criticism and mockery that he gets here.

 

[btowngopher]

If I was trying to support the idea that Kill is the better coach, I would have written that post differently.

My aim is to show that Fleck isn't worthy of bootlicking and Kill doesn't deserve the criticism and mockery that he gets here.

90% of the criticism and mockery is brought on by those saying how he’s better than Fleck and by Kill himself.

 

[maroonfive]

He lost me when he said it wasn't manly to take his medication.

 

[GopherVotary]

listed as they're divorced on his wiki page for what that's worth

I wonder if Kill has any comments now on Fleck’s failed first marriage.

 

[Gophers1992]

If I was trying to support the idea that Kill is the better coach, I would have written that post differently.

My aim is to show that Fleck isn't worthy of bootlicking and Kill doesn't deserve the criticism and mockery that he gets here.

I didn't realize PJ had his boot on any of us.

Whether Kill deserves criticism and mockery is up for debate.

 

[everybody knows my name]

90% of the criticism and mockery is brought on by those saying how he’s better than Fleck and by Kill himself.

Which is how you misinterpreted my comments.

So who actually says that Kill was better than Fleck?

 

[Some guy]

I'm not finding fault with Fleck. I'm merely comparing. Draw your own stupid conclusions.

It's stupid to characterize Kill's forced retirement as "quitting during a losing season"

Kill did quit during a losing season
He had had the same issues before and didn’t quit.
He coached again after this.

Unless you have some hard information he was forced into retirement I can’t say he was. Kill has never even claimed anyone said he had to go.

Im not saying he quit like he has a character flaw or anything.
Im saying he removed himself from the job.


You are merely comparing. I’m merely pointing out it’s kind of a ridiculous comparison.
Fleck had two losing seasons after he built the whole thing compared to kill who got better each year. Meanwhile his last year was his second worst year and he stopped coaching before he ever finished a single season with all his own guys.

 

[#2Gopher]

I wonder if Kill has any comments now on Fleck’s failed first marriage.

I'm sure he does and realizes he made a mistake. As the article said he was going a few different directions. Trying to raise money for the Athletic Village that still isn't paid for, recruiting, trying to change the program for the better, all the while battling health issues. Through it all he took some or all of his frustrations out on Rebecca who was a great lady. He didn't quit. He had to resign and take care of himself.

Now that he is healthier, more relax, he is able to look back and acknowledge the good and the bad within his heart.

 

[Some guy]

I'm sure he does and realizes he made a mistake. As the article said he was going a few different directions. Trying to raise money for the Athletic Village that still isn't paid for, recruiting, trying to change the program for the better, all the while battling health issues. Through it all he took some or all of his frustrations out on Rebecca who was a great lady. He didn't quit. He had to resign and take care of himself.

Now that he is healthier, more relax, he is able to look back and acknowledge the good and the bad within his heart.

That’s all well and good. Happy for him. He did good things for the program.

 

[everybody knows my name]

Unless you have some hard information he was forced into retirement I can’t say he was. Kill has never even claimed anyone said he had to go.

You're splitting hairs. He couldn't do the job and he couldn't take care of himself. His health forced him into retirement, and at the time, he believed he would never coach again.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

Fair. Kinda like trading shit for piss though…
Mason was not here in 96 and was 12-20 from 1997-2000 in B10 and was 20-28 after…neither was a great run but better than Wacker for sure

That’s a line from Moneyball also?

 

[Some guy]

If I was trying to support the idea that Kill is the better coach, I would have written that post differently.

My aim is to show that Fleck isn't worthy of bootlicking and Kill doesn't deserve the criticism and mockery that he gets here.

Imo none of the mockery kill gets has anything to do with his on field results and everything to do with acting like a middle schooler in the 2-3 years after fleck was hired.

 

[Some guy]

You're splitting hairs. He couldn't do the job and he couldn't take care of himself. His health forced him into retirement, and at the time, he believed he would never coach again.

Yes. So he quit coaching mid year.
But in your comparison you rewarded him for not ever coaching a team he fully recruited for a full season.
You even said he got better and better every year when his last season was his second worst.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

JK is a real peach. Ask Rebecca Kill.

 

[everybody knows my name]

Yes. So he quit coaching mid year.
But in your comparison you rewarded him for not ever coaching a team he fully recruited for a full season.
You even said he got better and better every year when his last season was his second worst.

You don't comprehend, but maybe that isn't your fault.

Daily seizures meant Kill couldn't do the job, and trying to do the job meant he couldn't take care of himself.

If you showed up at work impaled on a length of rebar, I wouldn't complain about the quality of your burger flipping.

 

[everybody knows my name]

JK is a real peach. Ask Rebecca Kill.

You ask her, and let us all know what she says.

 

[Some guy]

You don't comprehend, but maybe that isn't your fault.

Daily seizures meant Kill couldn't do the job, and trying to do the job meant he couldn't take care of himself.

If you showed up at work impaled on a length of rebar, I wouldn't complain about the quality of your burger flipping.

I didn’t complain about the job he did?

 

[Some guy]

You're splitting hairs. He couldn't do the job and he couldn't take care of himself. His health forced him into retirement, and at the time, he believed he would never coach again.

He stopped coaching mid season.
Is that better?

And because he stopped coaching mid season he avoided having his second worst season year 5
He also never coached a roster that was ever all his own at Minnesota for a full season.

If I change the word quit to stopped does it help?

 

[everybody knows my name]

He stopped coaching mid season.
Is that better?

And because he stopped coaching mid season he avoided having his second worst season year 5
He also never coached a roster that was ever all his own at Minnesota for a full season.

If I change the word quit to stopped does it help?

I made my original point, which is that Kill wasn't a bad coach and Fleck isn't a great one. You supposedly agree with that, but everyone knows somebody who loves to create and prolong disputes by nitpicking, deflecting, and arguing semantics.

I'll make a further point: all these people who love Fleck and despise Kill today, are going to hate Fleck once he's gone, whether he deserves it or not. That's an ugly truth about Minnesota sports fans.

 

[Gophers1992]

All of these things are true:

1. Jerry Kill did an excellent job elevating our program and is a very good coach.
2. PJ Fleck is a better coach.
3. Gopher fans should all have some appreciation for Jerry, but also have plenty of reason to dislike him as a person.
4. Saying Jerry Kill quit on the program is unfair.
5. Saying that PJ inherited a 9-4 team, while factually true, is incredibly disingenuous.
6. Jerry Kill has the maturity level of a teenage girl.
7. Both Jerry and PJ have/had very successful tenures overall at the U.
8. PJ Fleck elevated this program to another level post Kill/Claeys.

 

[Gophers1992]

I made my original point, which is that Kill wasn't a bad coach and Fleck isn't a great one. You supposedly agree with that, but everyone knows somebody who loves to create and prolong disputes by nitpicking, deflecting, and arguing semantics.

I'll make a further point: all these people who love Fleck and despise Kill today, are going to hate Fleck once he's gone, whether he deserves it or not. That's an ugly truth about Minnesota sports fans.

I dislike Kill but wouldn't say I despise him. That said the only way I will hate PJ is if he does something awful on the way out, or leaves for Wisconsin or Iowa.

 

[everybody knows my name]

All of these things are true:

6. Jerry Kill has the maturity level of a teenage girl.

I did business with a man who was reputed to be a great guy, knowledgeable, capable, and unfailingly polite and friendly. But when I met him, I found him rude, obnoxious, distasteful, and unreliable. He was a nightmare to deal with, but due to business arrangements beyond my control, I was stuck with him for about a year.

About five years later I got a call from a polite, articulate, soft-spoken man. When he introduced himself I couldn't believe it was the same guy. He explained that when I knew him before, he was going through a health crisis, he was taking a variety of powerful drugs, and he was in a bad place emotionally. He apologized for the way he had behaved. He said, in hindsight, he knew that people had been patient and kind with him and he regretted his behavior. He couldn't believe he had ever acted that way. We ended up being friendly for about ten years, until he passed away.

You should read the article linked in the original post.

 

[Some guy]

I made my original point, which is that Kill wasn't a bad coach and Fleck isn't a great one. You supposedly agree with that, but everyone knows somebody who loves to create and prolong disputes by nitpicking, deflecting, and arguing semantics.

I'll make a further point: all these people who love Fleck and despise Kill today, are going to hate Fleck once he's gone, whether he deserves it or not. That's an ugly truth about Minnesota sports fans.

I don’t really think anyone hates either of them. But plenty love to complain.

 

[Gophers1992]

I did business with a man who was reputed to be a great guy, knowledgeable, capable, and unfailingly polite and friendly. But when I met him, I found him rude, obnoxious, distasteful, and unreliable. He was a nightmare to deal with, but due to business arrangements beyond my control, I was stuck with him for about a year.

About five years later I got a call from a polite, articulate, soft-spoken man. When he introduced himself I couldn't believe it was the same guy. He explained that when I knew him before, he was going through a health crisis, he was taking a variety of powerful drugs, and he was in a bad place emotionally. He apologized for the way he had behaved. He said, in hindsight, he knew that people had been patient and kind with him and he regretted his behavior. He couldn't believe he had ever acted that way. We ended up being friendly for about ten years, until he passed away.

You should read the article linked in the original post.

Would like to read it but I don't have Strib access. Your story is a good one and very relevant though, I will grant that. My main problem is I've never heard Jerry apologize or show any remorse for the things he said. Maybe he did so in the article, but that's really my main issue with him.