Schooled:The Price of College Sports (student athlete or unpaid employees)

[Deleted_User]

If you have not seen this 2013 film on the NCAA's control of the college athlete, then you are missing out on a very interesting story. In light of the Northwestern players, you will find this is not a new story.

If you have seen it, what did you find interesting or detestable about the documentary?


For me, it shows how much of a cartel the NCAA has always been and how they use restraint of trade as their primary weapon in keeping players in line time and again. If you look up the NCAA in Google.com/scholar and select case law, you will find the NCAA a member of dozens of lawsuits against them, and almost all of them come down to cases of restraint of trade and the definition of employee.

Considering that the Minnesota championships occurred in the era of under the table pay for athletes, maybe we should encourage that model since it worked so well for us in the past. The whole issue of pay intrigues me more and more and doesn't diminish the sport at all. The whole idea that there even are amateur athletes with commercial sponsors, donors, gate receipts, brand merchandise, and television contracts makes it sort of laughable that they are amateurs. And, to see that so many students can hardly afford a box of Ramon noodles for dinner and have to ask coaches for a meal tells me that these athletes are not directly benefiting during their playing years. Seems to me to be another form of plantation with "da man" running the show and dictating benefits.

First see the movie. Then make a comment.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

How did those lawsuits turn out?

If i want to be a little bit facetious, there is nothing barring the players from forming their own league. Who would show up to watch? The product is something the schools and NCAA provide and the athletes are not bound to play by their rules.

They are eligible for the nfl after 3 years out of high school. They could go to the arena league and get paid. afl players are eligible for the nfl, ergo, no cartel.

It will be interesting to see how these lawsuits turn out. I already know, but it will be interesting to see the reaction.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

If i want to be a little bit facetious, there is nothing barring the players from forming their own league. Who would show up to watch? The product is something the schools and NCAA provide and the athletes are not bound to play by their rules.

The concept of "the athlete can go play somewhere else" is over simplistic. The NCAA is an member organization that has a monopoly at the D-1 level for athletics that feed into football and basketball for men. Unlike the baseball & hockey where an athlete can enter the league at 18, both football and NBA basketball have restrictions that force kids to play in the NCAA (99+%) to gain entry into their leagues.

This monopoly creates different standards as it relates specifically to these two men's sports. The schools in league with the NCAA collude to set prices (value of scholarships), restrict wages, bargaining both individually and collectively, and continue to make significant revenue off the names & likeness of the student athletes that far exceed the value of their scholarships and this collusion has created an environment where the value of a scholarship is significantly below the total cost of going to school and NCAA rules prevent student athletes from earning income to cover the costs outside of their scholarship.

The argument that the revenue goes to support sports that don't support themselves has no bearing on the unfair practices by the NCAA and its members.

I was on academic scholarship in college, but still was able to work as a teaching assistant, work as a tutor, work at an outside job. If I was a D-1 athlete at the same school, I wouldn't have been able to any of these things...even though my scholarship covered 100% of my tuition, room & board just like a student athlete. How is this fair, reasonable and acceptable in this FREE country of ours? Oh, and I also owned the research I did, any patents I would have produced, etc. And Johnny Football can't sign come ****ing autographs and get paid? Idiotic BS IMO.

 

[gopherhoopsguy]

I guess we should pay high school kids to... I mean the school collects the gate, booster clubs, sponsors for the school, pictures on programs this is so stupid I can't stand it.. Go play overseas.. no one is making these kids take a scholarship from a college.. Who made these kids except a scholarship? Who? ?? answer that? No one is forced to play college sports!!! That is a choice!!

 

[Gopherguy0723]

I guess we should pay high school kids to... I mean the school collects the gate, booster clubs, sponsors for the school, pictures on programs this is so stupid I can't stand it.. Go play overseas.. no one is making these kids take a scholarship from a college.. Who made these kids except a scholarship? Who? ?? answer that? No one is forced to play college sports!!! That is a choice!!

That is a rather big strawman you knocked over. You aren't forced to work, yet their are laws governing work conditions. By your logic, workers should shut up and work in any conditions their bosses subject them to. No one forces you to go to work, it is your choice.

We regulate businesses to prevent exploitation of workers, create a safe work environment, promote a healthy economy, and for other reasons despite what you characterize as a choice. The NCAA has gotten away with all sorts of law breaking for decades. Luckily, the legal system has caught on. The NCAA will be toast within a decade.

 

[Deleted_User]

So, I take it some of you didn't see the documentary!

 

[FreakyDeke]

That is a rather big strawman you knocked over. You aren't forced to work, yet their are laws governing work conditions. By your logic, workers should shut up and work in any conditions their bosses subject them to. No one forces you to go to work, it is your choice. We regulate businesses to prevent exploitation of workers, create a safe work environment, promote a healthy economy, and for other reasons despite what you characterize as a choice. The NCAA has gotten away with all sorts of law breaking for decades. Luckily, the legal system has caught on. The NCAA will be toast within a decade.

The legal system has caught on? Hmmm, I remember you claiming that laws come before markets on this very message board.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

The legal system has caught on? Hmmm, I remember you claiming that laws come before markets on this very message board.

Laws against price fixing and such existed before the NCAA. The laws were simply ignored. Moreover, the point wasn't that all always exist before every market is created. It is plainly obvious that some laws are created in reaction to unwanted outcomes. The point was law in general came before markets.

You're not bright enough to keep. Go try to play gotcha with someone else who doesn't realize you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

As to the OP to get this back on track, where did you see the documentary? I would like to check it out.

 

[FreakyDeke]

Laws against price fixing and such existed before the NCAA. The laws were simply ignored. Moreover, the point wasn't that all always exist before every market is created. It is plainly obvious that some laws are created in reaction to unwanted outcomes. The point was law in general came before markets. You're not bright enough to keep. Go try to play gotcha with someone else who doesn't realize you have no clue as to what you're talking about. As to the OP to get this back on track, where did you see the documentary? I would like to check it out.

It is plainly obvious. I know exactly how bright I am and how bright you are. You think effects happen before causes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were saying there were laws about price fixing before there were "price fixers"?

How about clarify your point rather than insult? By "legal system catching up" I think you mean enforcement of existing laws, but that's not the legal system catching up. If you are a serial killer and you are finally arrested, I wouldn't say the "legal system finally caught up", because murder already was against the law. But the enforcement of that law caught up with you. What I thought you meant was creating new laws to fit a new situation, similar to laws about new technologies etc.

You can find the documentary on netflix, but someone with your intellect surely knows to look there.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

This thread has been needlessly hijacked. Mods please delete the last few posts.

 

[Deleted_User]

Laws against price fixing and such existed before the NCAA. The laws were simply ignored. Moreover, the point wasn't that all always exist before every market is created. It is plainly obvious that some laws are created in reaction to unwanted outcomes. The point was law in general came before markets.

You're not bright enough to keep. Go try to play gotcha with someone else who doesn't realize you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

As to the OP to get this back on track, where did you see the documentary? I would like to check it out.

I saw it over the internet on Amazon Prime.

 

[saintpaulguy]

Try baseball as your model. Major League is great to watch. College, just ok. Minor league, ok to watch, subsistence living for players.

Let football have farm teams in Fresno and Spokane.

 

[Deleted_User]

One of the takeaways from Schooled was that the NCAA in the 1950's had 1 part time employee setting up meets and championships. Obviously, the mission statement broadened out. But, between the early 1900's and the 50's, the NCAA was not interested in amateur athletics. They were interested in allowing free markets to function and competition for players to be wide open. So, the whole mantra about preserving the amateur status of sports doesn't ring true to the history. Schooled covers the evolution of the term "student athlete" as a means of keeping workers compensation away from the colleges.

I thought Schooled was very well done. Certainly it has a bias against the NCAA and supported the athletes cause. Fundamentally, it cast the whole issue as a human rights franchise that got eroded over time. Now, we have an indoctrinated culture that believes that the scholarship is the limit to compensation, which as a free market perspective is just so evil and vile. It gives me the heebie jeebies.

 

[Word]

Try baseball as your model. Major League is great to watch. College, just ok. Minor league, ok to watch, subsistence living for players.

Let football have farm teams in Fresno and Spokane.

Agreed - or even hockey for that matter (junior leagues, minor leagues). College product is still fun but if you don't want to go to college you can go play in a junior league or minor leagues. Seems like the NCAA is ok with it in those sports.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

The concept of "the athlete can go play somewhere else" is over simplistic. The NCAA is an member organization that has a monopoly at the D-1 level for athletics that feed into football and basketball for men. Unlike the baseball & hockey where an athlete can enter the league at 18, both football and NBA basketball have restrictions that force kids to play in the NCAA (99+%) to gain entry into their leagues.

This monopoly creates different standards as it relates specifically to these two men's sports. The schools in league with the NCAA collude to set prices (value of scholarships), restrict wages, bargaining both individually and collectively, and continue to make significant revenue off the names & likeness of the student athletes that far exceed the value of their scholarships and this collusion has created an environment where the value of a scholarship is significantly below the total cost of going to school and NCAA rules prevent student athletes from earning income to cover the costs outside of their scholarship.

The argument that the revenue goes to support sports that don't support themselves has no bearing on the unfair practices by the NCAA and its members.

I was on academic scholarship in college, but still was able to work as a teaching assistant, work as a tutor, work at an outside job. If I was a D-1 athlete at the same school, I wouldn't have been able to any of these things...even though my scholarship covered 100% of my tuition, room & board just like a student athlete. How is this fair, reasonable and acceptable in this FREE country of ours? Oh, and I also owned the research I did, any patents I would have produced, etc. And Johnny Football can't sign come ****ing autographs and get paid? Idiotic BS IMO.

There is NO requirement to play at NCAA level to play in NFL.

The courts will not find for a player that says he finds going the arena league or JUCO route less palatable than "slaving" for the NCAA.

You guys are letting your emotions about the money cloud the issue. There might be a judge here or there that might agree with you but most judges wont be as charitable.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

That is a rather big strawman you knocked over. You aren't forced to work, yet their are laws governing work conditions. By your logic, workers should shut up and work in any conditions their bosses subject them to. No one forces you to go to work, it is your choice.

We regulate businesses to prevent exploitation of workers, create a safe work environment, promote a healthy economy, and for other reasons despite what you characterize as a choice. The NCAA has gotten away with all sorts of law breaking for decades. Luckily, the legal system has caught on. The NCAA will be toast within a decade.

Ill be charitable for a moment and allow you to dream that this will come to pass. When the schools go the Ivy route and drop athletic scholarships and give only aid based on financial need will you pat yourselves on the back?

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Btw I have in fact seen the first 25 minor the doc (on Epix) and it watered down to my school made some money so I deserve a bigger share of the pie.

The case law on employee-employer is old ground and has been for decades.

IF changes need to be made to employee-employer relationships re college football...
The changes instituted to void any such relationship they might surprise some of you. You read it here first.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

There is NO requirement to play at NCAA level to play in NFL.

The courts will not find for a player that says he finds going the arena league or JUCO route less palatable than "slaving" for the NCAA.

You guys are letting your emotions about the money cloud the issue. There might be a judge here or there that might agree with you but most judges wont be as charitable.

It is a defacto requirement when over 99% of all players come from the NCAA into both leagues. There is more than one way to create a rule in legal terms. And my emotions are fully checked.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

The NCAA will the way of the AAU, only it won't be congress that does it, it will be the courts.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Ill be charitable for a moment and allow you to dream that this will come to pass. When the schools go the Ivy route and drop athletic scholarships and give only aid based on financial need will you pat yourselves on the back?

Nope. I simply want equal treatment and enforcement of the law. The NCAA is not exempt from the law. It has been operating in clear violation of it. It needs to end. I'd rather see the current system end and justice be issued than the current system remain and exploitation continue. Call me crazy, I know.

 

[Ski-U-Mah24]

My thoughts have always been at a MINIMUM, the NCAA should cover all injuries and medical expenses related to any athlete that signs on the dotted line to play for that school. I watched this film and I find it ridiculous that students within the school can get paid for their academics but athletes cannot be paid a dime for their athletics while playing for that school. The fact that the NCAA made millions off of video games using these same athletes is sickening to me. Im not saying these guys should be making thousands off of it but all athletes at the D1 level should be given something outside of the scholarship and I think they should at least start by paying for any and all medical expenses for their athletes, especially life altering injuries and disabilities for God's sake!

 

[highwayman]

This thread has been needlessly hijacked. Mods please delete the last few posts.

And there are three "posters" who are on these thread themes like flies on crap. Literally.

 

[Deleted_User]

Pompous, I love how your moniker fits your online personality. Good times!!

You are so in line with the colleges, are you an employee of an NCAA college. I think full disclosure if you are is in order. In fact, if you post, please disclose if you are a college employee or not.

I am not a college employee. I am in the HR world. I dislike very much how the NCAA is interfering with student life. Especially since it was the students who originally organized college sports and not the colleges. Time for the student to regain control over their franchise. I think alumni should support this view.

 

[Deleted_User]

And there are three "posters" who are on these thread themes like flies on crap. Literally.

Have you seen the documentary and what are your thoughts around it? Otherwise, I invite you to leave the discussion and save your attacks for a different thread. Would you be willing to do that?

 

[CrocShots]

I saw it over the internet on Amazon Prime.

On Netflix too. Interesting doc, but nothing new.

 

[Killjoy]

This thread has been needlessly hijacked. Mods please delete Gopherguy0723 and all his posts.

FIFY

 

[Pompous Elitist]

If you guys are arguing the athletic department revenue is primarily a business and the players are employees then...tax exempt status in doubt. IRS can make all kinds of good arguments, courtesy of CAPA, that the AD revenue and player schollies should be taxable. If you do your own taxes one quickly understands the tax code is essentially for sale to the highest and loudest bidders...

Athletic departments become taxable entitities, donations then lose tax-deductible status. There are all kind of inane implications to what you guys are arguing for. And there are tax experts that can "argue" both sides.

Ultimately it could come down to a congressional action to rule on this issue. Ultimately these things can be subject to legislative actions as well as legal. The NLRB has political appointees, after all.

Sorry Highwayman if this is a tiresome issue. I do make a lot of "pompous" arguments...not all of them are good or informed but it is fun...

Excerpt from excellent paper on NCAA tax exempt status:

So, the next question is, what does all this have to do with Division I athletics and the NCAA? The answer is as follows. If Division I football and basketball have really become primarily commercial entertainment activities, then the operation of these commercial businesses potentially could affect the exempt status of the NCAA (and universities undertak- ing these activities) if (1) the activities are considered “substantial,” and (2) the activities are not “in furtherance of” an exempt purpose. How this analysis would come out is unclear, although there are substantial hurdles to attacking either the NCAA’s or universities’ tax exemption in this manner.
The “substantiality” part is probably easy: Division I football and basketball programs are pretty clearly “substantial” under any definition of the word. For the NCAA, the Division I men’s basketball tournament television revenues are the bulk of its budget;100 for individual universi- ties, football and basketball programs often involve tens of millions in revenues and expenditures, employ dozens if not hundreds of people, and are used by universities as major generators of alumni interest and donations.101
The problem is with the “in furtherance of” piece. On the one hand, one could argue that modern Division I football and basketball programs are indeed “imbued with a commercial hue”: they compete generally with other entertainment dollars (though perhaps not with professional sports102), tickets are certainly priced to earn a profit (and in fact a number of Division I football and basketball programs do have revenue

nues in excess of expenditures with ticket prices that rival professional alternatives),103 and both the NCAA and participating universities engage in extensive advertising using commercial advertising methods.104 Even Myles Brand has been quoted recently stating that college athletics should be run in a more businesslike fashion, as the NCAA promotes (or at least sanctions) the use of college athletes’ physical appearance in vid- eo games and other commercial ventures.105 One could also argue that these programs are not functionally related to the educational mission of universities or the promotion of amateur athletics by the NCAA. The arguments here would track those made under the UBIT and examined more fully in Part IV below:106 Division I football and basketball have be- come largely minor leagues for the pros, they benefit only a tiny propor- tion of any university’s student body, they are actually detrimental to the overall education of the athlete given the amount of time they consume, and so forth.

http://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/ilr-content/articles/2010/1/Colombo.pdf[/I]

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Also from the review, the author makes the same argument I do: mandate all revenue be rolled back into education and a salary cap on coaching staffs.

The Article then turns to a brief examination of some potential poli- cy responses. While I leave the question of what the exact scope of regu- lation should be to a future article by experts in college sports law and management, I note that tax law has in the past employed three kinds of regulation that might be peculiarly appropriate to college athletics: (1) requiring revenues from certain athletic programs (e.g., football and basketball) to be spent on specific policy goals, such as other educational or athletic opportunities; (2) imposing expenditure limits, such as salary caps on coaches; and (3) requiring additional disclosure via the Form 990.

 

[50PoundHead]

On Netflix too. Interesting doc, but nothing new.

Watched it on Netflix. The audio and video didn't stay in sync at a number of junctures, but that's probably on the Netflix end. Agree with crocshots. Interesting, but not a whole lot new if someone has been following this even at arm's length. I think there's some pretty compelling math that shows the amount of scholarship awarded to a player doesn't cover the full cost of the education at an institution. Also touching (and damning) story on TCU running back Ken Waldrep and the shabby treatment of him by TCU after he was injured.

This whole issue could get solved in a day if the NCAA had any interest in truly striking a deal. Instead, they go straight to the "we'll be paying players" card, which truly distorts the issue. I just see the tired old white jock sniffers and bean counters down at the NCAA being totally willing to drive this baby off the cliff.

 

[DLguy]

I have gotten thru the first 15 minutes so far, and I think a lot of it is laughable. Arian Foster claims he was not able to eat because he couldnt afford groceries. A full ride covers not just your schooling, but also room and board. You are given a full meal plan. You are given money for food, clothing and entertainment. If you choose to waste that money on other crap, that is your fault. The Franklin kid from UCLA is from South Central. He comes from a very poor family. His room had a new tv, XBOX, and many games. Looks like we see where he is spending his extra money. His choice, but dont complain. I had many friends on full rides at the U. They were way better off than any of us normal students. Also funny how these guys complain about their daily schedule, and how tough it is. Welcome to the real world. Some of us had to work jobs during college to make it thru.