Reusse: P.J. Fleck's sustained success with Gophers separates him from Lou Holtz's legacy

[Some guy]

Agree, best to ignore history cuz that way you don't have to, like learn or think or anything.

Maybe Ohio state writers should compare everyone to Wes Fesler leaving.
Maybe Michigan writers should talk about Fielding Yost in columns 3 times a year.

half the fan base wasn’t alive when Lou Holtz was a gopher coach.

ignoring history and not hyper focusing on a blip in history are two different things

 

[Tommyboy]

What? You are comparing a coach that won a national title to a coach that won 3 s%%t bowls and every year looses to a Bowling Green team?

 

[FanSinceTheFifties]

Agree, best to ignore history cuz that way you don't have to, like learn or think or anything.

Well told, PG.

 

[MGGopher]

What? You are comparing a coach that won a national title to a coach that won 3 s%%t bowls and every year looses to a Bowling Green team?

 

[fair]

What? You are comparing a coach that won a national title to a coach that won 3 s%%t bowls and every year looses to a Bowling Green team?

It’s honestly impressive how quickly you made 2 blatantly untrue statements to try to say Fleck is bad. He has some shortcomings that you could bring up to make a decent counterpoint, but instead you chose garbage. Well done.

 

[PhillyGopher]

What? You are comparing a coach that won a national title to a coach that won 3 s%%t bowls and every year looses to a Bowling Green team?

Still feeling jilted that he didn't offer a certain superstar quarterback?

 

[Some guy]

Holtz was also the one who went to the Board of Regents when they were debating what to do with Memorial Stadium and recommended they blow it up and commit permanently to the Metrodome. He was gone within a year of that and we were stuck with an albatross for the next 20+ years.

Holtz left us with sanctions, a broken fanbase and a lousy stadium. It's hard to believe considering how bad the Gophers were in 1983 but he ended up setting the program back further due to his tenure here.

AND contrary to what is said,

to younger fans holtz isn’t some what if.
To younger fans (under 40…life expectancy is 80) this either took place before birth or before active memories. To younger fans this is ancient history (sorry to those of you in your 40s and 50s who I just called old)


Coach who once went 6-5 when the program was just 6 wins or more in 6/11 seasons preceding his arrival. Whatever will we do?

a better what if question is what if we offered mike Shanahan the job instead of Lou Holtz?
What if we hired Bobby Ross instead of gutekunst?
What if we had convinced Bud Wilkinson to come back?
What if we offered the job to 30 year old Tony dungy in 1985?


What if Lou holtz stayed is an absolute worthless question .

 

[Some guy]

Well told, PG.

Okay boomer

 

[FanSinceTheFifties]

Okay boomer ]

I dig it. But I thought his post was pretty groovy. Anyway, far out, Man. Stay mellow.

 

[Some guy]

I dig it. But I thought his post was pretty groovy. Anyway, far out, Man. Stay mellow.

when it is 2045 do you think you’ll still be longing for Lou Holtz?

“let it go”
-some movie from the past 40 years

 

[Go4Broke]

What? You are comparing a coach that won a national title to a coach that won 3 s%%t bowls and every year looses to a Bowling Green team?

No, he was comparing a Gopher's coach with a 10-12 overall record, 7-10 conference record, 0 bowl games, several NCAA recruiting violations/sanctions, and who jumped ship after 2 seasons - to a Gopher's coach with a 35-23 overall record, 21-22 conference record, 3 bowl game victories, 0 recruiting violations, and who after 5 seasons signed a long-term extension with the Gophers and professed his family's undying love for Minnesota and their desire to stay here forever.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Cheatin' Carpet Bagger Lou, Medal of Freedom winner. What a joke.

Luther Darville disagrees

 

[Gold Rush]

Holtz was also the one who went to the Board of Regents when they were debating what to do with Memorial Stadium and recommended they blow it up and commit permanently to the Metrodome. He was gone within a year of that and we were stuck with an albatross for the next 20+ years.

Holtz left us with sanctions, a broken fanbase and a lousy stadium. It's hard to believe considering how bad the Gophers were in 1983 but he ended up setting the program back further due to his tenure here.

This is not really true. Before he came they were a 1-10 team that was the laughingstock of the NCAA - they were blown out nearly every game. They were outscored 518-181 including the 84-13 debacle to Nebraska. Holtz came in and upgraded the facilities - (the indoor practice facility was dubbed the Taj Ma Holtz) but inspired hope in an absolutely demoralized fanbase. They sold out the Dome and turned the program around in a big way and fast. The big mistake was hiring John Gutekunst as his successor instead of Bobby Ross who wanted the job. Ross would go on aand win a national championship just a few years later at Georgia Tech. Gutey had several years of .500 ball but the program was definitely much better off than when Holtz took over. Back then there was probably as much excitement for Gopher football that I have ever seen even though they weren't winning 9 games like this year. Memorial Stadium was in shambles and there is no way you could have saved that at that point. Short ornery Norwegian had a good take on this....it was a very unique time. When Holtz left it was absolutely crushing to a very pumped up fanbase.

 

[Ope3]

What if we offered the job to 30 year old Tony dungy in 1985?

I don't think in 1985 that would that would have worked well, but when it came time to hiring Wacker (fall 1992) I was really disappointed that Dungy didn't get the gig.

Short ornery Norwegian had a good take on this....it was a very unique time. When Holtz left it was absolutely crushing to a very pumped up fanbase.

Had Fleck left Jan 2, 2020 the Gopher newbies would have had an identical reaction those of us in 1985 all had.

 

[USAF]

Okay boomer

The King Of Bad Takes is also a Richard.

That tracks.

 

[Some guy]

I don't think in 1985 that would that would have worked well, but when it came time to hiring Wacker (fall 1992) I was really disappointed that Dungy didn't get the gig.



Had Fleck left Jan 2, 2020 the Gopher newbies would have had an identical reaction those of us in 1985 all had.

a more valid comparison would be if fleck had left after the Georgia tech game and then won a national title at his next stop

 

[Ope3]

a more valid comparison would be if fleck had left after the Georgia tech game and then won a national title at his next stop

True, on the field results at that point were pretty much identical. However, I don't think Fleck really captured the fervor of the Gopher fanbase on par with the Holtz level until after the 2019 campaign.

Case in point, Holtz's 2nd year the Gophers were playing to Sold Out (or nearly) crowds at the HHH Dome. The last 3 Big 10 game in 2018 at the Bank, actual attendance was less than 20,000. That changed in 2019.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Before my time but holtz must have had the entire town and media pumped!

 

[FanSinceTheFifties]

when it is 2045 do you think you’ll still be longing for Lou Holtz?

“let it go”
-some movie from the past 40 years

when it is 2045 do you think you’ll still be longing for Lou Holtz?

“let it go”
-some movie from the past 40 years

Did I even mention Holtz? And as to 2045, I'm pretty sure I won't have an opinion on anything then.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

I don’t get the obsession with Lou holtz

It was kind of like a instant boost of energy and immediate improvement when Lou was hired. We found out shortly after he left that Lou was a win at all costs type of coach though.
I appreciate Mr Reusse finally coming around to Fleck being a solid program improver.

 

[btowngopher]

Fleck has stayed and has been good. Ruesse should be saying that Holtz might have had as much success as Fleck had he stayed. Instead he is saying Fleck has a chance to be as good as Holtz would have been, which is ridiculous as no one knows how well Holtz would have done. Don’t downplay Fleck’s accomplishments by measuring them against another’s hypothetical accomplishments.

 

[RememberMurray]

Fleck has stayed and has been good. Ruesse should be saying that Holtz might have had as much success as Fleck had he stayed. Instead he is saying Fleck has a chance to be as good as Holtz would have been, which is ridiculous as no one knows how well Holtz would have done. Don’t downplay Fleck’s accomplishments by measuring them against another’s hypothetical accomplishments.

Absolutely correct.

I'm a Boomer, I remember the Holtz "era" fairly well. To my knowledge, the only person who sees any similarities between Holtz and Fleck is Reusse.

Fleck and Holtz are opposites in many ways, with different personalities and coaching styles. Fleck himself actually believes in what he's doing, in his slogans and the 'culture' he's building. He isn't trying to con or fool anyone. Reusse has always been way off base on that.

If you look at Reusse's complete history with Gopher football coaches, you can detect an obvious pattern:

— Reusse styled Holtz as "The Music Man". To a certain extent he was right about that.

— Reusse tried to portray Jerry Kill as some sort of a phony, pretend country boy. Pat never got any traction with that lame take.

— Now Reusse appears to be giving Fleck weird, backhanded compliments while drawing flimsy parallels between Fleck and Lou Holtz. Again, he's dredged up a slightly modified version of his worn-out 'con man' theme.

Patrick seems to want us to believe that it falls on him — in his role as the sage, world-weary columnist — to pry the scales from the eyes of us poor innocent yokels, who are too often fooled by the long parade of 'con men' hired as Gopher football coaches.

In point of fact, there have been good and bad and downright incompetent Gopher football coaches in my long life, but Lou Holtz is the only 'con man' in the bunch. Reusse is trying way too hard to recycle that bit.

 

[Ope3]

Absolutely correct.

I'm a Boomer, I remember the Holtz "era" fairly well. To my knowledge, the only person who sees any similarities between Holtz and Fleck is Reusse.

Fleck and Holtz are opposites in many ways, with different personalities and coaching styles. Fleck himself actually believes in what he's doing, in his slogans and the 'culture' he's building. He isn't trying to con or fool anyone. Reusse has always been way off base on that.

If you look at Reusse's complete history with Gopher football coaches, you can detect an obvious pattern:

— Reusse styled Holtz as "The Music Man". To a certain extent he was right about that.

— Reusse tried to portray Jerry Kill as some sort of a phony, pretend country boy. Pat never got any traction with that lame take.

— Now Reusse appears to be giving Fleck weird, backhanded compliments while drawing flimsy parallels between Fleck and Lou Holtz. Again, he's dredged up a slightly modified version of his worn-out 'con man' theme.

Reusse never insinuated anything "phony" or "pretend" with respect to Kill. "Country Jer" was not a slight.

I also don't think he deems Fleck as a "con man" but instead more as a goofy self-promoter.

 

[FormerFatOL]

Absolutely correct.

I'm a Boomer, I remember the Holtz "era" fairly well. To my knowledge, the only person who sees any similarities between Holtz and Fleck is Reusse.

Fleck and Holtz are opposites in many ways, with different personalities and coaching styles. Fleck himself actually believes in what he's doing, in his slogans and the 'culture' he's building. He isn't trying to con or fool anyone. Reusse has always been way off base on that.

If you look at Reusse's complete history with Gopher football coaches, you can detect an obvious pattern:

— Reusse styled Holtz as "The Music Man". To a certain extent he was right about that.

— Reusse tried to portray Jerry Kill as some sort of a phony, pretend country boy. Pat never got any traction with that lame take.

— Now Reusse appears to be giving Fleck weird, backhanded compliments while drawing flimsy parallels between Fleck and Lou Holtz. Again, he's dredged up a slightly modified version of his worn-out 'con man' theme.

Patrick seems to want us to believe that it falls on him — in his role as the sage, world-weary columnist — to pry the scales from the eyes of us poor innocent yokels, who are too often fooled by the long parade of 'con men' hired as Gopher football coaches.

In point of fact, there have been good and bad and downright incompetent Gopher football coaches in my long life, but Lou Holtz is the only 'con man' in the bunch. Reusse is trying way too hard to recycle that bit.

I agree with most of your take, but I don't think Holtz was a con man. His motivational principles rang true and were very effective. To be a con man, you need to lie and cover up. If Holtz had a downside, it was the potential recruiting violations. Maybe you can correct me with facts, but I don't think Holtz ever portrayed himself as super clean rule follower. Otherwise, that would be a con.

 

[FormerFatOL]

Reusse never insinuated anything "phony" or "pretend" with respect to Kill. "Country Jer" was not a slight.

I also don't think he deems Fleck as a "con man" but instead more as a goofy self-promoter.

Here's what I simply don't understand about the curmudgeonly criticism of Fleck's style. A place like Minnesota circa 2017, without a recent strong history of college football (no, a handful of decent seasons under Kill/Mason don't equate to a strong program) and pro team competition for fans, needs more than just a good coach to elevate the program.

To attract top talent, the Gophers need some point of differentiation from the hundreds of other good college coaches. Fleck knows this. So, he builds and promotes a healthy lifestyle and culture as the core marketing tenet along with other typical college sports branding (videos, cool uniforms, etc.). When Fleck is sitting at the dining room table of a recruit's house in Georgia and trying to convince the mom to send her kid 1,000+ miles north, he can point to the culture as a differentiator (high GPAs, high social standards, community service, motivational skills, etc.). Without these, Minneapolis is just some cold ass winter landscape in a weird city that had gigantic riots the summer of 2020.

I'm just as much a curmudgeon as anyone, but I can see what's right in front of my eyes regarding Fleck.

 

[RememberMurray]

I agree with most of your take, but I don't think Holtz was a con man. His motivational principles rang true and were very effective. To be a con man, you need to lie and cover up. If Holtz had a downside, it was the potential recruiting violations. Maybe you can correct me with facts, but I don't think Holtz ever portrayed himself as super clean rule follower. Otherwise, that would be a con.

To me the Holtz feature that smacked most of a dishonest con was pretending he was thrilled to be at Minnesota, all the while he was waiting to skip to a higher-profile job.

 

[RememberMurray]

I don't recall GPA being mentioned during the Holtz era; maybe I missed it.

 

[btowngopher]

Reusse never insinuated anything "phony" or "pretend" with respect to Kill. "Country Jer" was not a slight.

I also don't think he deems Fleck as a "con man" but instead more as a goofy self-promoter.

I never understood the self promoter stuff. It seems pretty rare Fleck ever talks about his own accomplishments. He is a fantastic promoter of the program.

 

[Ope3]

I never understood the self promoter stuff. It seems pretty rare Fleck ever talks about his own accomplishments. He is a fantastic promoter of the program.

If Fleck was coaching me, I would not be able to take the persona, schtick or whatever you want to call it.

However, as a Gopher fan I do buy in that he's sincere about it and truly believes in his methodology as the way to reach success. Most importantly the guys he's coaching buy it. In that respect, sure I will row the boat. Whatever works.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

As I read it, the key point of Reusse's column was this:

some people have tried to compare Fleck to Brewster, because both coaches had very outgoing public personas.

Reusse is saying Fleck is NOT like Brewster, because Brewster was all talk, while Fleck can actually coach.

Instead, Reusse is saying that Fleck has more in common with Holtz - because both were good talkers, and Holtz also showed an ability to win games.

from there, the comparison becomes hypothetical. We don't know what Holtz might have done if he had stayed at MN, but Holtz did win a National Championship at ND. We will get to see what Fleck does during his tenure at MN - however long that lasts.