Record Comparisons

[Johnnyboy18]

The 2020 season all of kill/claeys kids were gone unless there was a random 5th year senior that stayed and played during covid. This year is 100% all PJ recruits. It's not the same situation when kill started. Kill inherited a 1 win team that was bad and went 1-11, 7-6, 6-7, 1-6 in the previous 4 yrs with nobody going to class and the team losing scholarships because of it. PJ inherited a 9 win team that had gone 8-5, 8-5, 6-7, 9-4 in the previous 4 yrs. If PJ is a better recruiter and coach than kill/claeys, then he will win more than 9 games and come in 1st in the west with his kids. Otherwise he is the same or worse than kill/claeys.

We were told PJ was brought in to win championships. When is that going to happen? We were already winning and the team had very good grades. The only thing PJ is better at than kill/claeys is social media because he promotes what all the other coaches did behind the scenes but didn't advertise.

Did something happen in December 2016, I'm having a hard time remembering?

Why did you eliminate 2 wins from the year before Kill took over? Some would say an agenda.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I know exactly the point....Your comparison was silly....A coach that coaches for 10 years and has one great season and 9 average to below average seasons did not create a level of stable success for the program...The jury is still out on PJ....Many coaches before him have tried and failed here to do that.

Your point was stupid. We’re 4 games into year 5, not year 10.

 

[SamSquatch]

The 2020 season all of kill/claeys kids were gone unless there was a random 5th year senior that stayed and played during covid. This year is 100% all PJ recruits. It's not the same situation when kill started. Kill inherited a 1 win team that was bad and went 1-11, 7-6, 6-7, 1-6 in the previous 4 yrs with nobody going to class and the team losing scholarships because of it. PJ inherited a 9 win team that had gone 8-5, 8-5, 6-7, 9-4 in the previous 4 yrs. If PJ is a better recruiter and coach than kill/claeys, then he will win more than 9 games and come in 1st in the west with his kids. Otherwise he is the same or worse than kill/claeys.

We were told PJ was brought in to win championships. When is that going to happen? We were already winning and the team had very good grades. The only thing PJ is better at than kill/claeys is social media because he promotes what all the other coaches did behind the scenes but didn't advertise.

The Kill/Claeys/Leidner term was a disaster. Few if any meaningful wins and extremely boring and often sloppy football.

PJ is a bit of a ham but at least it comes to him honestly. Kill/Claeys presented as aw shucks Charlie Brown shuffle footed good ole boys that, when shown, were actually petty and cringey men.

I don’t know that Fleck will end up being the right answer but we had to move on from these obvious wrong answers.

 

[GophersInIowa]

The 2020 season all of kill/claeys kids were gone unless there was a random 5th year senior that stayed and played during covid. This year is 100% all PJ recruits. It's not the same situation when kill started. Kill inherited a 1 win team that was bad and went 1-11, 7-6, 6-7, 1-6 in the previous 4 yrs with nobody going to class and the team losing scholarships because of it. PJ inherited a 9 win team that had gone 8-5, 8-5, 6-7, 9-4 in the previous 4 yrs. If PJ is a better recruiter and coach than kill/claeys, then he will win more than 9 games and come in 1st in the west with his kids. Otherwise he is the same or worse than kill/claeys.

We were told PJ was brought in to win championships. When is that going to happen? We were already winning and the team had very good grades. The only thing PJ is better at than kill/claeys is social media because he promotes what all the other coaches did behind the scenes but didn't advertise.

Was it the exact same team in 2017 that it was in 2016? He inherited a roster full of recruiting classes that consistently rated in the 50's and 60's nationally. It was a roster that was specific to Kill's system. Some players graduated, some left the program. Fleck inherited part of a team that won 9 games the year before.

We're 4 games into year 5 and you're already saying he won't win more than 9 games again.

 

[GopherGangsta]

Your point was stupid. We’re 4 games into year 5, not year 10.

I think 4 plus years is plenty of time to form an opinion on a particular coaching regime.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Was it the exact same team in 2017 that it was in 2016? He inherited a roster full of recruiting classes that consistently rated in the 50's and 60's nationally. It was a roster that was specific to Kill's system. Some players graduated, some left the program. Fleck inherited part of a team that won 9 games the year before.

We're 4 games into year 5 and you're already saying he won't win more than 9 games again.

yes, I'm saying PJ won't win more than 9 games again and will not win the west ever. If he does, then great and I'll give him an atta boy, but he won't. He's all hat and no cattle.

 

[btowngopher]

The 2020 season all of kill/claeys kids were gone unless there was a random 5th year senior that stayed and played during covid. This year is 100% all PJ recruits. It's not the same situation when kill started. Kill inherited a 1 win team that was bad and went 1-11, 7-6, 6-7, 1-6 in the previous 4 yrs with nobody going to class and the team losing scholarships because of it. PJ inherited a 9 win team that had gone 8-5, 8-5, 6-7, 9-4 in the previous 4 yrs. If PJ is a better recruiter and coach than kill/claeys, then he will win more than 9 games and come in 1st in the west with his kids. Otherwise he is the same or worse than kill/claeys.

We were told PJ was brought in to win championships. When is that going to happen? We were already winning and the team had very good grades. The only thing PJ is better at than kill/claeys is social media because he promotes what all the other coaches did behind the scenes but didn't advertise.

You’re just making stuff up regarding what Brewster left for Kill. Academics were good under Brew, the only one they sucked under was Mason. Brew righted the ship as far as that goes, not Kill. We weren’t losing scholarships. We were told PJ was brought in to win championships? Can’t remember, were we told Kill and Claeys were brought in to win 9 games and Holiday bowls, and we all rejoiced and said sign me up for that?

 

[btowngopher]

And I’m sick of the Fleck won 11 games with talent from Kill/Claeys, well gues who coached a lot more of the Kill/Claeys talent and didn’t win 11 games?

 

[Goldmember]

First 49 games
Fleck 28-21 (35 Conference Games and COVID)
Kill/Claeys 25-24 (31 conference games)
Mason 24-25 (33 conference games)

For Comparison- Matt Campbell was 26-23 through 49 games with 35 Conference games

You are going to make people’s brains melt with your big/picture thinking here when most people who are here this week just want a space where people have to listen to their visceral emotional meltdowns.

Looks like Ferentz was 23-26 in his first 49, and Alverez was 25-24.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

You’re just making stuff up regarding what Brewster left for Kill. Academics were good under Brew, the only one they sucked under was Mason. Brew righted the ship as far as that goes, not Kill. We weren’t losing scholarships. We were told PJ was brought in to win championships? Can’t remember, were we told Kill and Claeys were brought in to win 9 games and Holiday bowls, and we all rejoiced and said sign me up for that?

Per the NCAA, The Academic Progress Rate which is used to monitor every NCAA sport for GPA, credits toward degree, staying at the university and graduating, increased under Kill/Claeys and decreased under PJ. No emotion here, just facts.

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2004-2005	918
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2005-2006	919
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2006-2007	927
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2007-2008	915	Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 3
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2008-2009	934
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2009-2010	935
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2010-2011	932
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2011-2012	955
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2012-2013	962
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2013-2014	975

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2014-2015	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2015-2016	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2016-2017	983
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2017-2018	978
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2018-2019	980

 

[Taji34]

Per the NCAA, The Academic Progress Rate which is used to monitor every NCAA sport for GPA, credits toward degree, staying at the university and graduating, increased under Kill/Claeys and decreased under PJ. No emotion here, just facts.

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2004-2005	918
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2005-2006	919
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2006-2007	927
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2007-2008	915	Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 3
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2008-2009	934
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2009-2010	935
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2010-2011	932
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2011-2012	955
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2012-2013	962
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2013-2014	975

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2014-2015	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2015-2016	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2016-2017	983
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2017-2018	978
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2018-2019	980

The nuance here being, I believe, players leaving for the NFL early hurt this score as well as maybe transfers? This is what the NCAA site had to say in addition:

In addition to developing the APR, the presidents also adopted a new graduation rate methodology that more accurately reflects student-athlete transfer patterns and other factors affecting graduation (the new rate is called the Graduation Success Rate).

Division I Academic Progress Rate (APR)

Division I Academic Progress Rate (APR)

www.ncaa.org

When looking at GSR they focus on 6 year cohorts who were 'freshman' in 2013. When looking at that statistic, the rate has increased almost every year. However, we won't begin to see Fleck's tenure on this rate far another few years.

http://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/gsrsearch if you want to look at the stats yourself. The U released a blurb last year about the most recent data, but they focus on the rate for the entire student athlete body rather than just one sport: https://gophersports.com/news/2020/11/17/athletics-gophers-excel-in-latest-graduation-rate-data.aspx

 

[Taji34]

I think 4 plus years is plenty of time to form an opinion on a particular coaching regime.

yes, I'm saying PJ won't win more than 9 games again and will not win the west ever. If he does, then great and I'll give him an atta boy, but he won't. He's all hat and no cattle.

How would you both assess this coach in the B1G in their first 6 years?:

Overall record	Conference record	Conference Standing	Bowl
1-10	0-8	10th	N/A
5-6	2-6	T-8th	N/A
5-6	3-5	T-6th	N/A
10-1-1	6-1-1	T-1st	Win
8-3-1	5-2-1	4th	Win
4-5-2	3-4-1	T-7th	N/A

These are real numbers. Definitely a dud right? Only one real good season, and trending in the wrong direction the last 2 seasons.

 

[btowngopher]

Per the NCAA, The Academic Progress Rate which is used to monitor every NCAA sport for GPA, credits toward degree, staying at the university and graduating, increased under Kill/Claeys and decreased under PJ. No emotion here, just facts.

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2004-2005	918
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2005-2006	919
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2006-2007	927
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2007-2008	915	Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 3
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2008-2009	934
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2009-2010	935
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2010-2011	932
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2011-2012	955
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2012-2013	962
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2013-2014	975

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2014-2015	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2015-2016	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2016-2017	983
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2017-2018	978
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2018-2019	980

So it might have slightly decreased with Fleck? It’s still really good. Plus this just shows that Brewster turned things around from Mason’s poor performance. It wasn’t Kill. Brew had to deal with the scholarship reduction, not Kill.

 

[Dano564]

The fact PJ has turned around a program that was so far down the drain publicly, is simply amazing.

The fact he already has better winning percentages despite not having an O-line or a QB in 2017 really shows how good of a coach he is.

 

[SanDiegoGopherFan]

PJ has the talent here to win the west.
Now he has to get out of his own way, aka don’t be stubborn and evolve.
If he can do that, MN will become a yearly contender.
It’s ok to bench a player for a few plays or quarter if they are not performing.
It’s ok to look at a coordinators past performance before hiring them.
it’s ok if your players get frustrated because they want to win so bad, you don’t have to bench them (which is what I believe happened with Wright, NO I DONT HAVE PROOF)

 

[JoeSchmoe]

If that was a lower tier big 10 team at the time and this guy knows X's and O's, then that isn't surprising. He won on year 4 and 5 with his seniors and 5th yr seniors that had been coached up and recruited. Then he took a dip on year 6 w/ 4 wins which could've been a fluke. If the same coach was there and he knew how to coach w/ technique and X's and O's...the Years 7, 8, 9 he should have them rolling and should have been able to sustain it.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

How would you both assess this coach in the B1G in their first 6 years?:

Overall record	Conference record	Conference Standing	Bowl
1-10	0-8	10th	N/A
5-6	2-6	T-8th	N/A
5-6	3-5	T-6th	N/A
10-1-1	6-1-1	T-1st	Win
8-3-1	5-2-1	4th	Win
4-5-2	3-4-1	T-7th	N/A

These are real numbers. Definitely a dud right? Only one real good season, and trending in the wrong direction the last 2 seasons.

If that was a lower tier big 10 team at the time and this guy knows X's and O's, then that isn't surprising. He won on year 4 and 5 with his seniors and 5th yr seniors that had been coached up and recruited. Then he took a dip on year 6 w/ 4 wins which could've been a fluke. If the same coach was there and he knew how to coach w/ technique and X's and O's...the Years 7, 8, 9 he should have them rolling and should have been able to sustain it.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I used always defend Glen Mason, so to be true to form I will point out that in ten years of playing cupcakes (and that is a lot of games), his middle of the road and better teams almost always destroyed all BGSU types by huge margins. Even one of his weaker teams (had no running back for the first half of the year,(thank you Gary Russell for flunking out) he still managed to beat NDSU in a wretched game that reminded me of Saturday.

This was supposed be a pretty solid, veteran filled PJF team, if you apply the Mason standard, the score should have been something like 55-10, iwth 3 RBs over 100 yards. Mason's good teams tended to pancake even respectable MWC teams like Colorado State. Of course in his later years the results vs. Iowa and Wisconsin or any tough Big Ten team later in the year were not as impressive.

If you want to compare coaches, Kill's teams often looked like crap vs. weak teams and that awful home game vs. Western MIchigan in 2013? reminded me a lot of Saturday, but Kill found a way to win. Sitting in the stands the game Saturday felt most like that awful WMU game, had we eeked out a win.

I get what you’re saying and I also think that comparing score from 20 years ago can be flawed. The on field gap isn’t what it used to be in college football. Transfers and the exposure G5 programs get, seems to have led to less of a gap.

You are going to make people’s brains melt with your big/picture thinking here when most people who are here this week just want a space where people have to listen to their visceral emotional meltdowns.

Looks like Ferentz was 23-26 in his first 49, and Alverez was 25-24.

And I looked it up today:

Since many older coaches, coached when there was 8 conference games, I took a 32 game or 4 season approach.

Fleck 15-17 (7-2 and Outback Bowl Win in 3rd Year)
Ferentz 15-17 (4th Year 8-0 and Orange Bowl)
Fitzgerald 15-17
Brohm 13-19
Frost 9-19 and is in his 4th season
Jerry Kill 13-19
Alvarez 11-21 (4th year was 6-1-1 and a Rose Bowl win)

 

[Taji34]

If that was a lower tier big 10 team at the time and this guy knows X's and O's, then that isn't surprising. He won on year 4 and 5 with his seniors and 5th yr seniors that had been coached up and recruited. Then he took a dip on year 6 w/ 4 wins which could've been a fluke. If the same coach was there and he knew how to coach w/ technique and X's and O's...the Years 7, 8, 9 he should have them rolling and should have been able to sustain it.

This coach did get them rolling again but it took 4 years from the last "great" season, but sustain? Not really IMO, what do you think?:

Overall Record	Conference Record	Conference Standing	Bowl
8-5	3-5	7th	Win
8-5	5-3	5th	Loss
11-1	7-1	T-1st	Win
10-2	7-1	1st	Win
9-4	4-4	T-5th	Loss
5-7	3-5	T-8th	N/A
8-6	2-6	T-8th	Win
7-6	4-4	T-7	Loss
9-3	6-2	3rd	Loss
10-3	5-3	T-3rd	Win

Overall B1G record: 65–60–3, barely above .500

 

[JoeSchmoe]

take the first year away and that coach went 64-50. Take years 1-3 away while he righted the ship and he went 54-38 w/ his own kids. went to 13 bowl games in 18 yrs and won 70% of them. Unless you are Michigan, Penn State, or Ohio state, this is a very respectable career and I would image he is very respected for this. Unless you are one of those 3 schools, you are getting 3 star kids and have to coach them up and have a very good strength staff to get them compete w/ the helmet schools. A MN, Iowa, Northwestern, etc should be making a run for their side of the division every 4-5 yrs and wining 7-8 games a year otherwise. Brewster, Mason, Lovie Smith, and I'm sure every other coach would love to consistently win 7+ games a year and 9-11 every 4-5 yrs, that's a solid career.

 

[Taji34]

take the first year away and that coach went 64-50. Take years 1-3 away while he righted the ship and he went 54-38 w/ his own kids. went to 13 bowl games in 18 yrs and won 70% of them. Unless you are Michigan, Penn State, or Ohio state, this is a very respectable career and I would image he is very respected for this. Unless you are one of those 3 schools, you are getting 3 star kids and have to coach them up and have a very good strength staff to get them compete w/ the helmet schools. A MN, Iowa, Northwestern, etc should be making a run for their side of the division every 4-5 yrs and wining 7-8 games a year otherwise. Brewster, Mason, Lovie Smith, and I'm sure every other coach would love to consistently win 7+ games a year and 9-11 every 4-5 yrs, that's a solid career.

Take away Fleck's first year and he's currently 23–14 overall and 13-13 in conference. I would take years 1-3 away too, but that literally leaves only 11 games which I think we can agree isn't really enough to draw a conclusion.

The mysterious coach, if you hadn't already figured it out, was Barry Alvarez. Say what you will about Fleck, but the first 5 years of wisconsin under Barry and the first 5 years of Minnesota under Fleck are nearly identical:

1. Horrible first season
2. Improvement
3. Hallmark season
4. Regression

The only difference is Barry took an extra year before the hallmark season. If we're talking no emotion, just facts, those coaching records tell the same story. Barry was able to reach 10+ wins again, so how can you say with certainty Fleck can't? Especially since Fleck's 5th season isn't even half way over yet.

 

[Word]

Per the NCAA, The Academic Progress Rate which is used to monitor every NCAA sport for GPA, credits toward degree, staying at the university and graduating, increased under Kill/Claeys and decreased under PJ. No emotion here, just facts.

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2004-2005	918
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2005-2006	919
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2006-2007	927
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2007-2008	915	Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 3
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2008-2009	934
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2009-2010	935
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2010-2011	932
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2011-2012	955
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2012-2013	962
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2013-2014	975

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2014-2015	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2015-2016	992
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2016-2017	983
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2017-2018	978
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2018-2019	980

It's a rolling average so to speak of the previous several years so the drop when fleck was hired was more of an indicator of the previous regime and/or the turmoil when Claeys was fired (players being kicked off team and/or leaving on their own because of the new coach).

 

[corcorangopher]

I have had public season tickets for 31 years and I had student season tickets for number of years before that. Not one of the coaches discussed here - Mason, Brewster, Kill/Claeys, Fleck has done what they are here to do - win the Big 10 or at least the B1G West. They are all failures. Lucy always pulls the ball away. And yet, here we are.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Take away Fleck's first year and he's currently 23–14 overall and 13-13 in conference. I would take years 1-3 away too, but that literally leaves only 11 games which I think we can agree isn't really enough to draw a conclusion.

The mysterious coach, if you hadn't already figured it out, was Barry Alvarez. Say what you will about Fleck, but the first 5 years of wisconsin under Barry and the first 5 years of Minnesota under Fleck are nearly identical:

1. Horrible first season
2. Improvement
3. Hallmark season
4. Regression

The only difference is Barry took an extra year before the hallmark season. If we're talking no emotion, just facts, those coaching records tell the same story. Barry was able to reach 10+ wins again, so how can you say with certainty Fleck can't? Especially since Fleck's 5th season isn't even half way over yet.

Because Barry can coach and Fleck can’t. Time will tell. If PJ can do it then I’ll give him his due. But it won’t happen. How can you say he will? You have faith. That’s great. Never gonna happen.

 

[Taji34]

Because Barry can coach and Fleck can’t. Time will tell. If PJ can do it then I’ll give him his due. But it won’t happen. How can you say he will? You have faith. That’s great. Never gonna happen.

Barry Alvarez had no HC prior to being hired at wisconsin, I think it's reasonable to say he was unproven as a HC in years 5 and 6 as he started to regress. Should Wisconsin have pulled the plug at that point?

 

[Goldmember]

I’ve heard comparisons steal your joy.
But I am enjoying this thread.

 

[builtbadgers]

You are going to make people’s brains melt with your big/picture thinking here when most people who are here this week just want a space where people have to listen to their visceral emotional meltdowns.

Looks like Ferentz was 23-26 in his first 49, and Alverez was 25-24.

Alvarez won the conference and the Rose Bowl in year 4

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Barry Alvarez had no HC prior to being hired at wisconsin, I think it's reasonable to say he was unproven as a HC in years 5 and 6 as he started to regress. Should Wisconsin have pulled the plug at that point?

No. I have never said PJ should be fired. Barry had 1 fluke year on year 6. Anyone can have a fluke year whether that is 5 wins or 11 wins.

 

[Schnauzer]

He is 5-6 since 2019....He is 17-19 taking out 2019...He is basically the same as Kill and Mason....Above average to below average at times.

I have found it is very common for coaching records/results to suffer when you remove their best season(s)

What does Fleck’s record look like with the Gophers if you take out 2017 and 2020?

How many Super Bowls have the Patriots won if you take out their super bowl years?

 

[btowngopher]

No. I have never said PJ should be fired. Barry had 1 fluke year on year 6. Anyone can have a fluke year whether that is 5 wins or 11 wins.

Why would you not want him fired if you think he will never win 9 or more games again?