Realization

[ilovethebarn]

This team really only needs 2 more wins the rest of the way to be a lock for the NCAA. We aren't going to fire a coach that makes the NCAA tournament. What happens then? I am serious too. What happens? We as fans see the regression season after season. On a macro level you can't get rid of a coach that makes the tourney. My hope is that Norwood "reviews and discuss the terms of this agreement" after the season to reduce this buy-out.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

People on this board will say Teague is going to fire him. In reality he won't and will follow with constant complaining again on this board until next season.

 

[Pewterschmidt]

Mason went to a bowl game in '06 and it was absolutely the right decision to fire him (the absolute wrong decision was hiring the eventual replacement but nonetheless firing Mason was the right decision). Going to a crappy bowl game is relatively on-par with backing into the tourney and losing in the opening round IMO so that's why I'm going with the comparison.

Vince Lombardi couldn't have coached the '07 Gopher FB team to a bowl game. That team was so devoid of talent that Mason would have been run out of town after that season anyways. He had completely mailed in recruiting. The '05 thru '07 classes where possibly the worst in the history of the program. Mason was f'd. The program was f'd. The writing was on the wall. It was the perfect time to tell Mason to take a hike (again, Maturi should have never been allowed to find his replacement because that nose-breathing Badger lover should never have been trusted to do anything other than push papers. It's easier to tell when something is wrong (i.e. Mason continuing as coach) than to find the thing that's right (hire the correct replacement). Maturi was absolutely the wrong person for the latter).

Next year's BB team given who is coming in and expected to return is anything but a tourney team on paper and we all know how well Tubby can coach teams up (HEAVY SARCASM). If he's not fired this year, he certainly will be next year. Why wait? The writing is on the wall. The '14 class is so important that to have a chance at any of them you have to cut bait now and get a coach that those players will know will be coaching there in '14 and beyond.

The difference between firing Mason and Tubby is I have some faith in Norwood finding a suitable replacement.

 

[bga1]

This team really only needs 2 more wins the rest of the way to be a lock for the NCAA. We aren't going to fire a coach that makes the NCAA tournament. What happens then? I am serious too. What happens? We as fans see the regression season after season. On a macro level you can't get rid of a coach that makes the tourney. My hope is that Norwood "reviews and discuss the terms of this agreement" after the season to reduce this buy-out.

I'm not so sure on 2 more wins anymore. Up until the last week it was a local secret how abysmal this team had become. Now these last two embarrassing losses show all the hallmarks of a squad and coach that don't give a rip. I'm not so sure that the committee would look at that fondly- regardless of our gaudy RPI. I'd say 2 wins and an first round win in the BTT would do it, but our first round opponent might be NW. I hear that they play the 1-3-1 zone.....

 

[UofMdad]

No one knows what Norwood is going to do or not do with regard to Tubby. That said, the overall direction of the basketball program as perceived by Norwood is going to be the underlying factor. IMO

 

[Ron Johnson Super Fan]

This team really only needs 2 more wins the rest of the way to be a lock for the NCAA. We aren't going to fire a coach that makes the NCAA tournament. What happens then? I am serious too. What happens? We as fans see the regression season after season. On a macro level you can't get rid of a coach that makes the tourney. My hope is that Norwood "reviews and discuss the terms of this agreement" after the season to reduce this buy-out.

Why would Tubby voluntarily take a reduction of his buy-out, which would make it easier to fire him? I don't see that happening.

 

[ilovethebarn]

No one knows what Norwood is going to do or not do with regard to Tubby. That said, the overall direction of the basketball program as perceived by Norwood is going to be the underlying factor. IMO

That is a great point UofMdad. I have a lot of faith in Norwood.

 

[GopherCountry]

I'm all for Tubby being fired. However, if he could land 2 of the big 3 recruits in the 2014 class, we should keep him. Timing is another factor. If someone new comes in, this new coach still has time to land these recruits. However, if Teague thinks there is a good chance we land these recruits with Tubby we may be stuck with Tubby for another 2 years even if he doesn't land these recruits.

 

[#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat]

Honestly, it's ridiculous to say that if a coach makes it to the NCAA tournament that they can't or won't get fired!!!

Coaches in the pros or at the top sports programs in the country get fired despite moderate success all the time.


If Tubby's not getting us where we need to get to, and his replacement can get us there, and we can afford to replace him, then I wouldn't care if he won us a Natl Title this year, I'd still support his being fired. IF its the right move to make. I'd also be ok with him getting one more year if he won us a title or got us to a FF. But JUST ONE MORE year. I would give him a chance to show us that he could build off the momentum. And the Big 3 might think highly of him if he did accomplish such a thing.


My only problem with the Tubby Bashers is HOW they bash him, and some of the reasons they give to not like him, they are lacking hard evidence to back them up. Comparing him to Dutcher or the good ole days, well, the good ole days weren't as good as you all remember.

But what we can all see with our very own eyes out on the court is too obvious to ignore. I just wish the Tubby Bashers would concentrate on those things, for they are undeniable. There are so many legitimate things you can bash Tubby for, stick to those things, and you'll be far more convincing.

 

[dpodoll68]

Going to a crappy bowl game is relatively on-par with backing into the tourney and losing in the opening round IMO so that's why I'm going with the comparison.

Going to a bowl game is much easier than making the tournament, whether you "back in" or not.

 

[Pewterschmidt]

Going to a bowl game is much easier than making the tournament, whether you "back in" or not.

I agree. That's why I prefaced "on-par" with "relatively." In a vacuum, it's apples to oranges.

However, the timing the firings is similar in that neither is some great feat when taking into my account that this should have been Tubby's best team in his 6 years (i.e. his high water mark). Losing in the 1st round of the tourney with your best team in 6 years is appropriate time to fire a coach just like firing a FB coach on a sinking ship that just lost a crappy bowl game.

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

Another consideration that Teague will need to make is fundraising for a new practice facility. I think, barring some sort of miracle NCAA run, that Norwood is going to have a VERY difficult time fundraising with the current staff in place. Confidence in Tubby is at an all-time low and people just don't open their wallets for something/someone they don't believe in. Of course, if he should decide to keep Tubby, maybe he can take that 2.5 million and put it toward the new facility instead of the coach's buyout? We could call it The Tubby Smith Absolution Facility.

 

[GophersInIowa]

There's still a lot of basketball to be played.

Scenario A: We get blown out by Indiana, and lose at Purdue. Then win the last two games and squeak by in the first round of the BT tourney before getting blown out by a top team in the 2nd round. We make it to the tourney before losing by 10+ in the first round.

Scenario B: We play Indiana close, and then win the next three. Win the first game in the BT tourney before losing a close one to a top team in the 2nd. Play tough in the 1st round of the tourney but lose in the end.

In scenario A, I think he has to be fired. Scenario B can go either way in my opinion. Way too many things can still happen. What if Scenario A happens but instead we go to the Sweet 16? Unless things get even worse than they are now, I don't see anything happening until after the season.

 

[dpodoll68]

I agree. That's why I prefaced "on-par" with "relatively." In a vacuum, it's apples to oranges.

But it's not relatively on-par. It's not even remotely on-par. No coach has ever made the tournament, in any conference, with a conference winning percentage even close to .250. It happens in football all of the time.

However, the timing the firings is similar in that neither is some great feat when taking into my account that this should have been Tubby's best team in his 6 years (i.e. his high water mark). Losing in the 1st round of the tourney with your best team in 6 years is appropriate time to fire a coach just like firing a FB coach on a sinking ship that just lost a crappy bowl game.

Now this, I agree with.

 

[tmvander]

I can't see him getting fired. That buyout is too expensive. We are looking to spend money on a practice facility and can't afford to worry about that buyout. I know there are countless threads about it, but honestly, who would our next coach be anyway? It won't be Shaka or Flip meaning it will probably be somebody few of us have ever heard of. Will spending 2.5 million dollars and getting some no namer in here fix the problem AND make us all happy when we hear the news? I doubt it.

I'm not very high on Tubby right now, but I just don't see a firing any time soon.

 

[DuggieD]

Ultmatey, It is not just making the NCAA's, It is about how the team fares in conference play. By any measure You care to look at, Coach Smith has not been abel to compete in the big ten. As the season winds down, and The AD looks at the program, My guess is tht BIG changes will be made. so here are my best guesses

1. Practice facility will be announced- Like Masons constant figh tfor a new fooball stadium came to pass after his depature. So will a practice facility for the team after Tubby.
2. Unless Flip decides to come back to coach the team- The Big Three are gone. I believe that only an alum with Flips coaching creds. could possible land Tyus, Rashad, and company.... Tyus comes with the package of Jahil. The man who coached KG at 18 years of age might be enough to intrigue the Chicago product that playing at Minnesota might be a very good thing.
3. If no Flip, Then Woody will make a surprise hire( I.E.an Assitant and big time recruiter at some other school). Teague is conneted with
those in the know in the talent department. He is is the man who hired an unknown Shaka Smart. If He truly believes that he has a great young talent that could build a long term succesful program, He will make the move. ( and Yes... I know that Brewster, came along the same thought process).
4. The program will be in better shape 4 years from now.

 

[bleedgold]

I personaly think the scenario comes down to two things....1) Tubby has to make the NCAA tourney and 2) He has to win at least one game. We brought him in to not only get us to the tourney which he has done twice in 5 years but but to also win a game or two. If he gets us to the tourney and we lose first round I feel confident he is gone.

The hard part for MN fans is we can talk about Flip and Shaka all day long. Of course we all think they want and or should take the job but what if they dont?

Most people dont know this but Tubby has more Overal wins and Big Ten wins in his first five and a half years then Monson and Clem had after their first 6. Neither one of those coaches got fired after year 6. Monson only had sanctions for 3 years and was NEVER barred from tournament appearences either.

Clem - 89-90 in first 6 years. Big Ten Record 39-69
Monson - 100-86 in first 6 years Big Ten Record 39-57
Tubby - 121-75 in five and a half years (this is his 6th year) Big Ten Record 44-59

 

[Wouldn't You like to Know]

Publicly bashing your team, bashing individual players, NOT holding himself accountable, horrible substitution patterns, getting blown out, no preparation, and the list goes on and on and on.....

HE HAS TO GO!!!

 

[station19]

There's still a lot of basketball to be played.

Scenario A: We get blown out by Indiana, and lose at Purdue. Then win the last two games and squeak by in the first round of the BT tourney before getting blown out by a top team in the 2nd round. We make it to the tourney before losing by 10+ in the first round.

Scenario B: We play Indiana close, and then win the next three. Win the first game in the BT tourney before losing a close one to a top team in the 2nd. Play tough in the 1st round of the tourney but lose in the end.

In scenario A, I think he has to be fired. Scenario B can go either way in my opinion. Way too many things can still happen. What if Scenario A happens but instead we go to the Sweet 16? Unless things get even worse than they are now, I don't see anything happening until after the season.

No matter what happens the rest of the season or in tournament play, Tubby has to go.

The basketball program is in total free-fall. There is no way any of the 2014 recruits will want to come aboard and join this mess with the present leadership of the program. Without a coaching change the Barn will be a ghost town next year.

Tubby has had ample time to show something and failed.

What will be the higher cost, keep Tubby or get rid of Tubby?

 

[Wouldn't You like to Know]

^^^^ This

 

[station19]

The last no-name coach Teague hired seemed to do okay.

Let's not underestimate the 'costs' of keeping Tubby.

 

[bga1]

I personaly think the scenario comes down to two things....1) Tubby has to make the NCAA tourney and 2) He has to win at least one game. We brought him in to not only get us to the tourney which he has done twice in 5 years but but to also win a game or two. If he gets us to the tourney and we lose first round I feel confident he is gone.

The hard part for MN fans is we can talk about Flip and Shaka all day long. Of course we all think they want and or should take the job but what if they dont?

Most people dont know this but Tubby has more Overal wins and Big Ten wins in his first five and a half years then Monson and Clem had after their first 6. Neither one of those coaches got fired after year 6. Monson only had sanctions for 3 years and was NEVER barred from tournament appearences either.Clem - 89-90 in first 6 years. Big Ten Record 39-69
Monson - 100-86 in first 6 years Big Ten Record 39-57
Tubby - 121-75 in five and a half years (this is his 6th year) Big Ten Record 44-59

bleedgold- you can't be seriously comparing the situations. Clem was handed the worst roster in Gopher history and had to start completely over with new guys. He was 6-30 with those guys over his first two years but then he MADE PROGRESS by getting to the Elite Eight in year four and having two upper division finishes. Get the difference?

Monson never had a chance. He came into this with a huge scandal, the loss of 6 schollys and other recruiting restrictions. the hill to climb was massive. By the time the probation was over the damage was done and people were already looking fo rthe next coach.

 

[coolhandgopher]

I personaly think the scenario comes down to two things....1) Tubby has to make the NCAA tourney and 2) He has to win at least one game. We brought him in to not only get us to the tourney which he has done twice in 5 years but but to also win a game or two. If he gets us to the tourney and we lose first round I feel confident he is gone.

The hard part for MN fans is we can talk about Flip and Shaka all day long. Of course we all think they want and or should take the job but what if they dont?

Most people dont know this but Tubby has more Overal wins and Big Ten wins in his first five and a half years then Monson and Clem had after their first 6. Neither one of those coaches got fired after year 6. Monson only had sanctions for 3 years and was NEVER barred from tournament appearences either.

Clem - 89-90 in first 6 years. Big Ten Record 39-69
Monson - 100-86 in first 6 years Big Ten Record 39-57
Tubby - 121-75 in five and a half years (this is his 6th year) Big Ten Record 44-59

Context, context, context. Both Clem and Monson stepped into their own separate pits of despair, while Tubby stepped into a program that was certainly down but not with sanctions or the black cloud that surrounded the "U" at those respective times. Plus, and this is a point that I think gets too often overlooked when people compare Tubby to Clem and/or Monson, is the reputation and expectations that Tubby Smith brought to the "U".

As for the "what if we don't get Flip or Shaka?", I would be quite surprised if either is the next coach at the "U". I am quite impressed with the track record Teague and Ellis had while at VCU and through the Villa 7 program and I would expect that they have a fairly strong list of candidates, some of who will be way off the radar for most fans in name recognition. There are no guarantees that the next coach, whoever that is and whenever it happens, will have any more success than Tubby or Monson or Clem, but what do you do? Keep watching a sink ship because bailing it out might not work out the way you hope?

 

[minny01]

No matter what happens the rest of the season or in tournament play, Tubby has to go.

The basketball program is in total free-fall. There is no way any of the 2014 recruits will want to come aboard and join this mess with the present leadership of the program. Without a coaching change the Barn will be a ghost town next year.

Tubby has had ample time to show something and failed.

What will be the higher cost, keep Tubby or get rid of Tubby?

I agree. If Norwood can find the cash for the buyout, he has no choice but to make the move. There are plenty of good candidates out there that he could bring in that would put the program in better shape than it is today.

 

[jmag21]

Why do people think Flip would be such a rock star coach? He wasn't an exceptional NBA coach, he doesn't have recent experience with the rough and tumble recruiting game, and he's been out of it for a few years. Why is he all of a sudden the savior? It's not like he's Tony Dungy.

 

[Hates Monikers]

I personaly think the scenario comes down to two things....1) Tubby has to make the NCAA tourney and 2) He has to win at least one game. We brought him in to not only get us to the tourney which he has done twice in 5 years but but to also win a game or two. If he gets us to the tourney and we lose first round I feel confident he is gone.

The hard part for MN fans is we can talk about Flip and Shaka all day long. Of course we all think they want and or should take the job but what if they dont?

Most people dont know this but Tubby has more Overal wins and Big Ten wins in his first five and a half years then Monson and Clem had after their first 6. Neither one of those coaches got fired after year 6. Monson only had sanctions for 3 years and was NEVER barred from tournament appearences either.

Clem - 89-90 in first 6 years. Big Ten Record 39-69
Monson - 100-86 in first 6 years Big Ten Record 39-57
Tubby - 121-75 in five and a half years (this is his 6th year) Big Ten Record 44-59

You conveniently forgot about Clem reaching the Sweet 16 AND Elite 8 during those first six years (in just his third and fourth years, by the way, after his first two years really impacted that overall record). And Monson ONLY had three years of sanctions? Come on. And he still had two seasons above .500 in the conference.

I think Tubby is in the same spot as Mason was at the end in that he's lost the fan base. People are already starting to get past the surprise, anger and disappointment and are moving on to acceptance, and it appears that includes the team. The past two games have looked an awful lot like Monson's last game against Clemson. If the cost wasn't so high, I think there would be very little question about Tubby's fate.

 

[Dr.Don]

I agree. If Norwood can find the cash for the buyout, he has no choice but to make the move. There are plenty of good candidates out there that he could bring in that would put the program in better shape than it is today.

AD Norwood Teague, right now, will have more success finding donors to buy out Tubby than he can for a new practice facility. Big bucks have a way of filtering to the biggest need, and right now, even you good old Dr.Don, submits to defeat, and it is time for a change in our basketball leadership.

I supported Tubby because he was our coach. I know when to flip-flop. I submit.

 

[ilovethebarn]

This whole situation sucks to be in right now. We are debating firing a coach who has won a national title or keeping the same coach whose teams constantly fade down the stretch. I personally don't even think we should keep him if he makes the tournament. It should be interesting no matter what. I just want wins.

 

[BleedGopher]

The last no-name coach Teague hired seemed to do okay.

Let's not underestimate the 'costs' of keeping Tubby.

Bingo! People often cite the buy-out cost, but the cost of keeping Tubby could be equally as costly. I have to imagine the season ticket numbers will drop some, but the big cost of keeping him (assuming the season doesn't dramatically turn around) is on the fundraising side. If this season continues on its trajectory and next season isn't much better, I have to think we'd take a $2.5MM hit/delay on the practice facility fundraising. Donors/corporations want to be associated with a winner. This entire situation would be a heck of a lot easier if Tubby could just win big here!

Go Gophers!!

 

[BleedGopher]

This whole situation sucks to be in right now. We are debating firing a coach who has won a national title or keeping the same coach whose teams constantly fade down the stretch. I personally don't even think we should keep him if he makes the tournament. It should be interesting no matter what. I just want wins.

Totally agree, it does suck. And if we make a move Teague and the fan base will need thick skin for a news cycle or two. We will get hammered nationally and applauded locally if a move is made.

The safe move is keeping Tubby and forcing a staff shake-up, the bold move is making a change in leadership. We will learn a lot about our new AD in the next month or so.

Go Gophers!!