Realistic reflection

[JMGIII]

Stealing this from the Talk Gopher Buckets podcast (2/19), but I thought it was spot on. First let me say, I get how fans have been frustrated with the season's W-L, our team's inability to finish off close games early in the BIG, and some loses to teams "we" expected to beat.

Just imaging how frustrating it has to be for the coaches. I think they should be receiving more credit for holding the team together & accomplishing what they have.

Two major factors:
1. Player departures - McNeil & Martin
Both were being counted on to play big roles:
McNeil -potentially being a starter, or at a minimum the guy coach could put in when Morris was not executing up to expectations - read poor defense - being able to use the bench as a deterrent/way to send a message. Instead Buggs, who was not ready or even expected to be a SF was forced into the fire. Give the kid credit though, he has improved. He was supposed to be fighting Martin for the back-up PF. Coach can't control what McNeil did.

Martin -expected to be the back-up PF. Most thought he would be a shoe in to leapfrog Buggs & some thought he may displace King as the starter. This one make me shake my head the most. He didn't even have the backbone to stick with it long enough to prove he was better than he was playing. What a sissy (hate to rip on the kid, but come on).

Under performing returning players:
Little Dre - you've seen it.
Big Dre - early in the BIG when this team really needed his leadership.
Elliot - I thought he & Mo would compliment each other - Coach could play whichever role we needed depending on opponent & game flow.

So, is the team or coaching really a disappointment? The outcome of the season is for sure, but if you knew this at the beginning of the season... What would your expectations have been?


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[GophersInIowa]

I think losing McNeil has really hurt. His offense is iffy, but he was a very good defender last year for a freshman. Plus it really hurt the depth.

 

[Go4]

great win against msu, every way you look at it.

but to give the staff credit for holding it together this year? come on, we're soft and afraid of criticism. we are 6-10 with a very experienced roster. if the staff was expecting big things from Martin, then they did a piss poor job scouting him. he was raw at best. sure he had potential, but we should have known that it would take a few years to tap it.

it's 50% the coaches job to ensure their players don't "under perform" so they certainly dont' get "credit" for overcoming dre and ee stinking it up this year. id much rather they get credit for squeezing every bit of talent out of ee, which we haven't done.

this team should not be 6-10 and we haven't had to over come that much. many gopher teams have had to over come more in previous years and many teams around the country are having to over come more than we are this year and they aren't sitting at 6-10 in the big ten.

 

[Goldteam]

great win against msu, every way you look at it.

but to give the staff credit for holding it together this year? come on, we're soft and afraid of criticism. we are 6-10 with a very experienced roster. if the staff was expecting big things from Martin, then they did a piss poor job scouting him. he was raw at best. sure he had potential, but we should have known that it would take a few years to tap it.

it's 50% the coaches job to ensure their players don't "under perform" so they certainly dont' get "credit" for overcoming dre and ee stinking it up this year. id much rather they get credit for squeezing every bit of talent out of ee, which we haven't done.

this team should not be 6-10 and we haven't had to over come that much. many gopher teams have had to over come more in previous years and many teams around the country are having to over come more than we are this year and they aren't sitting at 6-10 in the big ten.

You don't overcome a lack of athleticism very often.

King and walker are nailed to the floor.

We started a juco for most of the year.

and Mathieu, who we were counting on big, has been poor. He is also a midget.

 

[station19]

I agree with jmg's op. This team isn't all the talented to begin with. There was always going to be little room for error. Not to pick on the guy, but the regression of little dre hurt the most. Part of that has to be attributed to the opponents understanding better how to defend him.

I'm very curious to see what happens with the last three scholarships.

 

[fryguy22]

To me, "holding the team together" means getting them to stay motivated, focused, and playing reasonably well after an 0-5 start that features 4 games we easily could have won. That is incredibly deflating for a team to go from having NCAA aspirations to in the dumps of the B1G in 2 weeks. Since that point, we are 6-5 and still have a chance at NCAA - albeit an extremely slim one (I'd go with the ol' GW standby of a 2% chance).

The staff's done a nice job in the past ~6 weeks of not letting the wheels fall off. That doesn't mean this season isn't a disappointing one overall.

 

[JMGIII]

great win against msu, every way you look at it.

but to give the staff credit for holding it together this year? come on, we're soft and afraid of criticism. we are 6-10 with a very experienced roster. if the staff was expecting big things from Martin, then they did a piss poor job scouting him. he was raw at best. sure he had potential, but we should have known that it would take a few years to tap it.

it's 50% the coaches job to ensure their players don't "under perform" so they certainly dont' get "credit" for overcoming dre and ee stinking it up this year. id much rather they get credit for squeezing every bit of talent out of ee, which we haven't done.

this team should not be 6-10 and we haven't had to over come that much. many gopher teams have had to over come more in previous years and many teams around the country are having to over come more than we are this year and they aren't sitting at 6-10 in the big ten.

If you are trolling for a response. Job well done. If you have better, or different words you'd prefer - just use them and own it.

We're not performing like Nebraska or Rutgers - giving up.
You have no idea of what they are or are not afraid of.
Yes, experienced roster which did not make the NCAA last year either + missing one unexpectedly.
Fans were expecting a lot from Martin - we have no idea of what the coaching staff expected. Everything I read, which was not too much indicated Martin would be able to make the adjustment to major D1 ball.
I will agree it is the coaches job to coach up players & prevent regression. It's not a guarantee & obviously you are looking for anything you can to slam the coach. Thanks captain obvious - I can't speak for others, but I also liked how coach got so much out of many players last year - especially transforming Mo into something more than serviceable.

The last paragraph makes no sense;
Considering what I originally stated... Anything more than 1-2 additional wins would be unrealistic. I just gave you five impactful specifics regarding what this team has had to overcome. We're not comparing to past team, just talking about this team. Please reference the teams you say have had to overcome more & are doing better than our squad. I certainly do not see one in the BIG which fits your description.





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[JMGIII]

To me, "holding the team together" means getting them to stay motivated, focused, and playing reasonably well after an 0-5 start that features 4 games we easily could have won. That is incredibly deflating for a team to go from having NCAA aspirations to in the dumps of the B1G in 2 weeks. Since that point, we are 6-5 and still have a chance at NCAA - albeit an extremely slim one (I'd go with the ol' GW standby of a 2% chance).

The staff's done a nice job in the past ~6 weeks of not letting the wheels fall off. That doesn't mean this season isn't a disappointing one overall.

+1 my point exactly.


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[EG#9]

We can't draw any conclusions on player regression after just one season. That said, it's certainly possible that player regression was on the coaching staff as much as it was on the players. I don't think it's fair to just give Pitino a pass on Elliott(two T's people) and DeAndre's play.

I think losing Daquein McNeil hurt, but some of us were very vocal about going in to this year with just 5 scholarship players for 3 positions. If it wasn't McNeil's legal issue, it easily could have been an injury to someone else that derailed the depth on this roster. I agree with the point that not having McNeil hurt, but Pitino's roster construction was iffy coming in to this year. Illinois has been in a tougher spot than the Gophers with their roster issues and has found a way to stay in the hunt for an NCAA appearance (most picked the Illini behind the Gophers to start the year too).

I give Pitino and his staff credit for the team not packing it in after starting 0-5...but they started 0-5. In absolute worst case scenario, this team is 2-3 after those 5 games. Unfortunately, the combination of choking and terrible luck (and at least a tiny part coaching) put this team in almost a no win situation. Another point: I believe we have two wins as Vegas underdogs all season and 5/6 losses as Vegas favorites, so that's certainly not a positive.

If we knew all about the Gophers absent and under-performing players before the season, would we also know about all the weaknesses throughout the B1G? That's what's really missing from this discussion. Prior to the season, I think everyone expected Michigan State, Nebraska, and Michigan to be better teams. Watching the games this year, the only teams that really stood out as head and shoulders better than Minnesota were Maryland, Indiana, and Indiana. Of those 3, Indiana is certainly beatable and just played a hell of a game. I definitely feel like this season was a big missed opportunity, and would feel the same way if I knew everything about the conference prior to the season. Obviously, If I only knew about the Gophers negatives that would change my opinion...but that's not exactly a fair test.

The one aspect of bad luck that does bother me a bit is how the schedule played out for Minnesota. For example, if we just switched the dates of the Michigan game and the Northwestern game the Gophers probably go 2-0 instead of 0-2. The same could be said if we had the @Nebraska game just a few weeks later in the season. Northwestern is playing better ball now (definitely not excusing the home loss though) than they did earlier in the year and Michigan has been devastated by injuries. Nebraska speaks for itself.

 

[howeda7]

The loss of McNeil hurt, but we have also been incredibly healthy (knock on wood.) Most teams lose someone in their top 8 due to injury or for some other reason. You can't use one player loss as much of an excuse, IMO.

Martin showed no signs of contributing major minutes. At most he might be getting the minutes Diedhou is currently.

 

[gopherhoopsguy]

McNeil hurt more than people think he was a hard nose player like he was on the defensive end.

 

[cjbfbp]

If you are trolling for a response. Job well done. If you have better, or different words you'd prefer - just use them and own it.

We're not performing like Nebraska or Rutgers - giving up.
You have no idea of what they are or are not afraid of.
Yes, experienced roster which did not make the NCAA last year either + missing one unexpectedly.
Fans were expecting a lot from Martin - we have no idea of what the coaching staff expected. Everything I read, which was not too much indicated Martin would be able to make the adjustment to major D1 ball.
I will agree it is the coaches job to coach up players & prevent regression. It's not a guarantee & obviously you are looking for anything you can to slam the coach. Thanks captain obvious - I can't speak for others, but I also liked how coach got so much out of many players last year - especially transforming Mo into something more than serviceable.

The last paragraph makes no sense;
Considering what I originally stated... Anything more than 1-2 additional wins would be unrealistic. I just gave you five impactful specifics regarding what this team has had to overcome. We're not comparing to past team, just talking about this team. Please reference the teams you say have had to overcome more & are doing better than our squad. I certainly do not see one in the BIG which fits your description.


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I see. Your definition of a troll is someone who disagrees with you. I find it laughable that you think the points you offered to support your opinion constitute an incontrovertible argument. I thought his points were every bit as valid as yours.

I will give the coaching staff (and the players too) credit for not packing it in like Nebraska and Rutgers, but you'll notice that Northwestern didn't do that either. I don't agree that uncontrollable circumstances conspired to give us the fate of this season. I do agree with the other poster that this season's adversity hasn't been exceptional and even some recent Gopher teams had experienced more adverse circumstances. Heck, Dayton is having a very good season and they have only 6 scholarship players.

I hope that Pitino has a long enough and successful enough career that he will one day look back at this season and recognize it as not one of his better coaching efforts. A very recent example of this can be seen in the comparison of Minnesota's lopsided loss to Indiana followed by Purdue's victory over them. I watched that game and their players were on Indiana's perimeter shooters like white on rice. Instead of playing off the shooters and waiting to react until the pass was thrown to the perimeter, they denied the perimeter shooters the ball. Indiana shot 32 three pointers against us and made 18 of them. They shot 16 against Purdue and made 5. That game was followed by Northwestern holding Indiana to 20 3P attempts with 8 completions in their victory..

 

[cjbfbp]

McNeil hurt more than people think he was a hard nose player like he was on the defensive end.

There were people on these pages last summer (I wasn't one of them), who expressed some concern that a coach with a guard oriented offense was entering the season with only 5 active roster guards. McNeil could have gotten injured for the season and the result would have been the same. In retrospect these posters concerns were merited. Using that scholarship for guard who wasn't a sit out transfer would have been a prudent decision.

 

[builtbadgers]

The disappointing part id that the conference is as poor as i have ever seen it. The schedule set up for 11-12 victories

 

[cjbfbp]

The disappointing part id that the conference is as poor as i have ever seen it. The schedule set up for 11-12 victories

I've been following Big Ten basketball closely since around 1980 and I don't agree. I remember one year (1995) when 6 of 11 Big Ten teams were picked for the tourney and all but one of them (Purdue) lost their first game. And Purdue advanced by beating Wisconsin Green Bay by one point.

I think the poor quality of the Big Ten this season has been greatly exaggerated by some group thinking on this board. It's not one of the conference's great years but I wouldn't say it's one of its worst either.

 

[SelectionSunday]

The year the Gophers went to the Final Four they were the only Big Ten team that made it to the Sweet 16.

 

[ethomasp31]

I've been following Big Ten basketball closely since around 1980 and I don't agree. I remember one year (1995) when 6 of 11 Big Ten teams were picked for the tourney and all but one of them (Purdue) lost their first game. And Purdue advanced by beating Wisconsin Green Bay by one point.

I think the poor quality of the Big Ten this season has been greatly exaggerated by some group thinking on this board. It's not one of the conference's great years but I wouldn't say it's one of its worst either.

That was when Glen Robinson was playing for Purdue. The B1G probably isn't as bad as it was back then, but I think college basketball was better back then also. Guys leaving early has hurt the level of play. Teams are able to retool very quickly now and back in the 90's teams that were good had more veterans. I know someone is going to bring up the Fab 5, but that team was the 3rd or 4th best team in the B1G that year. tOSU and Indiana were both top 5 teams and Indiana could have beaten Duke in the National Semis that year at the Dome. That was Knights last Final 4 team. All that said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Wisconsin was the only team to make it out of the first weekend, and I think the B1G will lose some teams in the first round.

I'm not a fan of the roster we have coming back next year....but Pitino has done a good job of not losing the team and having them quit on him. Winning at Iowa and MSU were big wins for him.

 

[cjbfbp]

That was when Glen Robinson was playing for Purdue.

It was the year after. Robinson finished in 1994.

After that win over Wisconsin Green Bay, Purdue lost their next game so no Big Ten teams got to the final 16 that year and only 1 of 6 won any game at all.

 

[JMGIII]

I see. Your definition of a troll is someone who disagrees with you. I find it laughable that you think the points you offered to support your opinion constitute an incontrovertible argument. I thought his points were every bit as valid as yours.

I will give the coaching staff (and the players too) credit for not packing it in like Nebraska and Rutgers, but you'll notice that Northwestern didn't do that either. I don't agree that uncontrollable circumstances conspired to give us the fate of this season. I do agree with the other poster that this season's adversity hasn't been exceptional and even some recent Gopher teams had experienced more adverse circumstances. Heck, Dayton is having a very good season and they have only 6 scholarship players.

I hope that Pitino has a long enough and successful enough career that he will one day look back at this season and recognize it as not one of his better coaching efforts. A very recent example of this can be seen in the comparison of Minnesota's lopsided loss to Indiana followed by Purdue's victory over them. I watched that game and their players were on Indiana's perimeter shooters like white on rice. Instead of playing off the shooters and waiting to react until the pass was thrown to the perimeter, they denied the perimeter shooters the ball. Indiana shot 32 three pointers against us and made 18 of them. They shot 16 against Purdue and made 5. That game was followed by Northwestern holding Indiana to 20 3P attempts with 8 completions in their victory..

Um no. The troll reference was for the selective quotes on a couple of my choice of words. I have no problem with disagreement or being challenged on my opinion. In no way do I think my points (actually taken from the podcast as I stated) were the only correct opinion. I noted them because I have read many posts, not many posters going nuts over the team's performance this year. After listening to the podcast, I felt the need to shine a little reality on the situation. In turn my response challenged/refuted some of Go4's statements & actually agreed with one. If you think I over reacted. That's a fair opinion, but my response questioned many of what I believe we're unfounded or inaccurate statements.

Aside from you inaccurate assumption of what I believe, your response is spot on & has examples to back it up. I did not mention NW because I have seen that team continue to fight w/success- incredible after their losing streak earlier in the BIG. You mention Dayton as an example of overcoming problems. While true. Go4's assertion included BIG teams overcoming more than our Goph's was unsubstantiated. I watched Dayton play this last weekend. Not deep, but much better 6 deep. Very poised against VCU. I see Michigan as one who has been challenged in a similar way & they fight hard, but are 2-7 I their last 9.

No doubt we had a bad/terrible defense against Indiana, and their next couple opponents sure learned from our mistakes. I do not know what the game plan was, but I sure would have thought we would have play much tighter on the perimeter & made them beat us inside, or off the dribble. Those guys can shoot. Especially with good looks.

Thanks for you contribution & Go Gophers!


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