Question about due process argument

Look in the bright side; some of these young men will get a big fat check.


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Yes but they will never get the tarnished nature of their names back from being tied to this story. If you have ever been wrongfully accused of something, and had to defend and repair your reputation you know that they will go through a lot. Even at work going through the discipline process is beyond stressful even when you know you were in the right. Even when you win your case, with good character and more believable witnesses it sucks to be accused wrongfully of something you know that you didn't and would not do. Try explaining to a parent how this stuff happens, and how your good name becomes tarnished, sometimes no matter what you do or didn't do your going to get tarred feathered, and kicked to the curb. Because of this story, there will be people that will be unjustly dealing with this for perpetuity.
 

Here is a hypothetical for you:

A drug dealer is ripped off by drug buyer that then shoots him in the leg. The drug dealer - after being shot and a victim or robbery, reports this action to the police. Should the police arrest the drug dealer for possession with intent to distribute drugs AND arrest the guy that shot him or simply ignore this fact and focus solely on the guy that shot him?

Whether you realize it or not, this is a similar situation and I don't think you would have the same pity on the drug dealer that you have for the girl. She willingly engaged in an illegal sex act with a minor under the influence of alcohol. Had the situation been reversed, I am sure you stance on this would be quite different. Further, she has already fully admitted to the crime in her police statement. As far as I am aware, not a single player implicated has made a single statement to the POLICE (which is the only legitimate power in a criminal investigation), that the sex was anything but consensual.

To your point, the fact that a player made a video of an underage person performing a sexual act - and this fact is nowhere to be seen in the EOAA report as a violation of the code of conduct (not to mention being clearly against the CRIMINAL LAW), is shocking to me. If I am a prosecutor, I look at what charges are the easiest to prove and this is a no brainer.

The fact that you would throw out this arbitrary hypothetical further exposes your hypocrisy. The way I read the report is that the woman did not know the recruit was a minor until after. The way the report reads is she was surprised when told he was in high school. So no, she did not willingly engage in an illegal sex act with a minor. Again, do you take issue with the player(s) seemingly getting a recruit drunk and encouraging him to participate in group sex? Or is it just the girl's fault?
 

The fact that you would throw out this arbitrary hypothetical further exposes your hypocrisy. The way I read the report is that the woman did not know the recruit was a minor until after. The way the report reads is she was surprised when told he was in high school. So no, she did not willingly engage in an illegal sex act with a minor. Again, do you take issue with the player(s) seemingly getting a recruit drunk and encouraging him to participate in group sex? Or is it just the girl's fault?

As the adult that was put in charge as a recruit host, any player that willingly had this under age recruit at this party was in the wrong. This was enough for me to have an indefinite suspension. This was a clear violation of team and program rules.
 

The way I read the report is that the woman did not know the recruit was a minor until after.

So, as long as you think the person is not a minor - it is okay to have sex with them? I don't think you want to try that defense in a court of law.

As to the player, I think this should have formed the bulk of the U complaint against him. Producing child porn, participating in a sex act with a minor, and providing a minor with alcohol are all EASILY provable - especially given the player willingly turned over all the evidence the police needed. I think they should charge him with distribution of child pornography in fact.
 

So, as long as you think the person is not a minor - it is okay to have sex with them? I don't think you want to try that defense in a court of law.

As to the player, I think this should have formed the bulk of the U complaint against him. Producing child porn, participating in a sex act with a minor, and providing a minor with alcohol are all EASILY provable - especially given the player willingly turned over all the evidence the police needed. I think they should charge him with distribution of child pornography in fact.

16 is the age of consent in Minnesota, correct?
 


16 is the age of consent in Minnesota, correct?

Depends if she would be considered an authority figure given the circumstances of the recruiting visit. Also, the child porn still stands - cannot give consent for that.
 


There is a caveat to that rule of law, it is the age of the adult and the difference in age of the parties involved.

But only if she's in a position of authority over him (if he's truly 17 as reported). Think we can pretty much cross that possibility off the list. You guys might reluctantly need to focus your efforts on other ways to trash her.
 

But only if she's in a position of authority over him (if he's truly 17 as reported). Think we can pretty much cross that possibility off the list. You guys might reluctantly need to focus your efforts on other ways to trash her.

I'm not interested in trashing the alleged victim and I didn't imply she was an autority figure, my only point was someone that was an adult better not from the other groups at the apartment, filmed this recruit with the other person. Filming a minor in a sexual act even if it was by one of the observers or someone flashing lights on and off, would be a problem for the person with the phone that filmed it if they are an adult. Deleting that evidence would also possibly be a problem.
 



So, as long as you think the person is not a minor - it is okay to have sex with them? I don't think you want to try that defense in a court of law.

As to the player, I think this should have formed the bulk of the U complaint against him. Producing child porn, participating in a sex act with a minor, and providing a minor with alcohol are all EASILY provable - especially given the player willingly turned over all the evidence the police needed. I think they should charge him with distribution of child pornography in fact.

No. It's a strict liability crime. You don't need to mens rea (knowledge that you're committing a crime) to commit statutory rape.

That said, in MN, the age of consent for sex is 16.
 

I'm not interested in trashing the alleged victim and I didn't imply she was an autority figure, my only point was someone that was an adult better not from the other groups at the apartment, filmed this recruit with the other person. Filming a minor in a sexual act even if it was by one of the observers or someone flashing lights on and off, would be a problem for the person with the phone that filmed it if they are an adult. Deleting that evidence would also possibly be a problem.

If anything, the players would be a in a position of authority over the recruit and they would have contributed to the delinquency of a minor if he felt pressured to do it. States that have an age of consent under 18 have bizarre situations.

Either way, neither the girl nor the students are really an authority figure. They just don't want teachers, pastors, and coaches to go there. There have been some weird cases that have stretched the limits of the "person of authority" exception (city congressman (the kid didn't even know), friend of the parent). So it isn't entirely settled, but I don't think the girl would ever be considered to be a person of authority.
 

Depends if she would be considered an authority figure given the circumstances of the recruiting visit. Also, the child porn still stands - cannot give consent for that.

Was it on her phone? I thought the players recorded it. That crime is on them.
 

What if sexual assault was not the same as rape? What if protection from self-incrimination during the investigation phase was not part of your due process rights in student disciplinary proceedings? What if the students were in fact entitled to have an attorney present if they had been smart enough to bring one?

What if you quit making new monikers and just stuck with the one you had before this all started...amazing how much you say and then support yourself with monikers that have been created in the last week with less than 20 posts...get a life.
 




Excellent read for up north and Dean who seem to think these guidelines are law.

From the article:
en. (and former Education Secretary) Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., grilled Education Department officials about its letters, noting that although the department told the Senate its “guidance” wasn’t legally binding, it was simultaneously telling colleges and universities that they faced loss of all federal funding if they didn’t comply. But that didn’t change anything.
 

What if you quit making new monikers and just stuck with the one you had before this all started...amazing how much you say and then support yourself with monikers that have been created in the last week with less than 20 posts...get a life.

I'm confused, who are you saying I am/was? Regardless, I don't see how it matters. Sorry to ask you to think about the conclusions you're drawing. As to the post you responded to those are all rhetorical questions designed to make the previous poster think about the "facts" on which he is basing his outrage. I'm not flaming or saying anything unreasonable. If anything I'm middle of the road. I always leave open the possibility that the whole thing is a massive hoax a la Duke Lacrosse. I haven't made up my mind on it. But I also feel like calling people who are saying patently unreasonable things because this forum is so one-sided. That's as open as I can be.
 

Clearly the EOAA office wanted to throw down the hammer. And maybe rightly so.

The fact that we are all still hungover from pain of Mega-Tongue, B-ball XXX Productions, Wrestling Xanaxgate, etc probably did not help the players' cause (at least some of the periphery players.)

So there may be a bit of "sacrificial lamb" to this all.

Fair? Maybe not.

But on the flip side of the argument, what the F were the players thinking? Even if they thought in their heart of hearts that it was 100% consensual (I have my doubts), what the F were they thinking? They knew about the b-ball tape.

They should be expelled just for being stupid.

You'd be expelling a lot of students then...everything you just posted applies to most students attending the U.
 

Along with providing a safe environment for all of their students colleges have to balance the interests of both the accused and the accuser in these kinds of cases. In the criminal justice area everything is stacked against rape victims because of protections given to criminal defendants in the U.S. Constitution. This case is no longer a criminal matter. This is a Student Code of Conduct case with a much lower standard of proof needed for colleges to enforce codes of conduct. For people who want to tilt the student disciplinary process totally against rape victims even though it is not legally required - I am not with you. The overall risk to falsely accused perpetrators of sexual violence is far less than the risk that true victims of sexual violence will have no recourse open to them and they will be left with no protection from further attacks and harassment from their attacker(s).

The EOAA investigation is part of the Title IX disciplinary process used by every college in the country. Furthermore, I think just about every college has an interim suspension policy for sexual harassment and sexual assault cases. This isn't something the U dreamed up by itself. Interim suspensions are necessary for schools to be able to protect victims of sexual harassment and violence from further attacks and violence. With such suspensions there is clearly a risk that students might be falsely accused before they have had a hearing and that would be an injustice if the EOAA investigation gets it wrong. But I think most reasonable people would agree that interim suspensions after EOAA investigations are absolutely necessary for schools to provide a safe environment for their students.

After the EOAA investigation the process now moves to the hearings where the players will be represented by an attorney and will be able to challenge everything in the EOAA report. They will be able to call there own witnesses and cross examine adverse witnesses. If the decision goes against them then they can appeal. If they lose the appeal they can sue the U in federal court. And if they prevail in federal court the players will then be able to bring lawsuits for damages against the U and the girl. Win or lose all 10 players will have had their day in court.

It has been repeated over and over again in GH over the last three days. Because criminal prosecutors did not charge the accused players because of insufficient evidence does not mean they didn't commit the crime. OJ got off on his criminal trial but he lost the civil case against him because of the lower standard of proof for such cases. That is what we are presented with here. Hennepin County declined to prosecute so the U had to investigate the case to determine if the Student Code of Conduct was violated. For colleges not to be able to do this would prevent them from taking necessary action to keep their campuses safe and it would stack the process totally against victims of sexual violence on every campus in America.

You really need to get off the "lower standard of proof" stance. It is lower than that to charge and arrest. As posted multiple times in the unbelievably numerous threads on this subject, DAs often arrest and charge to help uncover more evidence and to compel those with information to talk. It is a practice used to gather evidence in pursuit of the standard they need to attain to successfully prosecute.
 

My first post as I signed up looking for a board after the story broke.

After reading the comments, I don’t believe that there is a single person on this board stating that the players are being unfairly because they view the football team through maroon colored glasses which make them instinctively doubt the girl or because they want so see the players on the field to increase our cases of winning the bowl at the expense of minimizing the seriousness of sexual assault. THERE ARE NO RAPE DEFENDERS HERE – PERIOD!

What people are reacting to is what they perceive to be the rank unfairness of the EOAA process with this case being their first exposure to this process. So, it is not that they did not care about this prior to football players being charged, it is that 99% of people had no clue the EOAA even existed previously.

One main issue I have is that the EOAA is putting forth a finding of fact with regard to a CRIMINAL charge – Sexual Assault. They are putting forth this finding of fact using a 51% threshold and arrive at this conclusion despite lacking any true investigatory authority (subpoena power, access to police reports, access to medical files, etc.), investigatory expertise, expectation from the University of the findings being non-biased (as evidenced by the composition and background of the EOAA members) and not providing the accused basic rights such as legal representation. I think this almost makes it to the point of violation of UN charter on human rights. Now, a 51% threshold may be fine for rulings on violations of school policies like plagiarism or cheating - these are not CRIMINAL ACTONS. Further, a ruling against the student for these actions does not have the same life altering consequences of a finding of sexual assault. They don’t put the pictures of plagiarists in the Star Tribune. If the students are so inclined, they simply enroll in another institution and omit any mention of their prior studies at the school which dismissed them. I know of a case where this was done.

However, the finding of the person being guilty of sexual assault – RAPE – cannot simply swept under the rug and the student moved to another institution. It is a stigma that will follow the person for the rest of their life. Rapist is a life altering label that should not be applied by an organization such as the EOAA but should be reserved for the US court system which has the proper authority – both civil and criminal (if you think the 51% threshold is the one that should be used) arms. Regardless of how this plays out moving forward, these players lives and reputations have been unrecoverably damaged. I do hope that they can successfully sue everyone involved and get the financial compensation that they deserve from this injustice done to them by the EOAA and U. Barring the students losing a criminal or civil suit on the rape allegation, the U is 100% in the wrong with how this has been handled.

As for those stating that they have an appeal so there is still due process, I cannot disagree more strongly. They NEVER had the benefit innocent until proven guilty during this entire EOAA ordeal and they definitely don’t have it after the EOAA delivered their finding of facts. Imagine a US court that did not allow you to have a lawyer present during your trial and only allowed them to participate in the appeal. Imagine a US court system where you are unable to face your accuser and cannot compel them to provide available and known evidence that supports innocence. Imagine a US court system where they did not have a trained judge and rules regarding what evidence is relevant to the case at hand and is admissible (such as the non-related text messages). Imagine a court system which ignored the findings of the police as to whether a criminal act took place – instead relying solely on untrained professionals disregarding the trained authority to reach their own conclusions based almost 100% on their determination of ‘credibility’ while ignoring evidence?

I am not a rape defender – no one is. But this process is a joke and should never have been able to implemented in its current form. I don’t have an issue regarding the U making determinations on compliance with the honor code – but CRIMINAL ACTS should not be within their jurisdiction. If they insist on bypassing the entities in a positon with the authority to make rulings on criminal actions – the police and US court system – then their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings. They should be barred from making any public statements and using terms such as “victim” in any public communication. The people condemning the players without hearing all of the evidence – and it is impossible for them to have heard it as the EOAA lacks investigatory power and the police dropped this based on lack of confidence in a chargeable offense prior to completing a thorough investigation – are not true believers in American values.

As a last point – would you think it would be fair for your current employer to brand you a rapist based on your conduct with a co-worker and then publicize that finding in the newspaper and press conferences? Do you think your current employer should have the right to make that ruling or do you think that should be the responsibility of the court system? I don’t think anyone want a private company making that distinction for them – but a lot here have no issue with the U making that distinction.

Always good to get new voices on here. Appreciate the post, but do disagree with many points.

1) There are no criminal charges. It is still a school disciplinary issue. A serious one, but the school has no ability to punish them criminally. As you said, the school does not have the same threshold for finding guilt as a criminal court does. I don't think this is a bad thing. Any DA will tell you that rape is so difficult to prove when you consider the reasonable doubt qualifier. The DA not bringing charges against these players is not a confirmation that they are innocent, it is an indication that the case will be very difficult to win at trial which is very different than saying no crime occurred. And remember, the players all agreed to the student code of conduct when they became students. It is not like this is all of a sudden being forced on them.

2) Being branded a rapist is absolutely a stigma, and it is unfortunate that there are so many in our society who see someone charged with rape and immediately think they are guilty. This is a societal issue, not a problem that someone should think about when trying to discipline someone who may be guilty of a horrific act.

3) You are correct that the U did identify these players as being suspended. That is it. No one at the U said anything about why they were suspended. The players own lawyer is the one who said it was related to a school sexual harassment investigation -- it is their own lawyer who is responsible for them being painted with the sex offender brush.

4) I understand that no one here condones rape. And I'm fine with people who want to have group sex. Heck, if everyone is consenting then go ahead and go wild. I don't care. But when you are given the privilege of being a scholarship athlete, maybe think twice before you are the fourth guy in an hour to go at it with a drunk girl. I don't expect 19 year olds to have all of their moral bearings figured out yet, but I do expect leaders to hold them accountable when they don't make the best decisions so that they don't make the same mistakes in the future.

5) I have no idea if this was a rape. Reasonable people are on both sides. I see why the DA didn't want to go forward with the case, but I also see why the school takes major issue with the situation. I think the punishments for some of them sound harsh, but these guys will get their day to appeal their punishments and I hope that both sides can come to a consensus as to the proper discipline. I realize that the players were not defending rapists when they boycotted (though they should have realized that it would look that way), but they also should have done their homework. They get due process, it is just a different process than the legal version.

6) This is a sad situation that was magnified by poor handling all around. Everyone from the president to the players to the players' parents. And everyone in between. No one looks good.
 

You really need to get off the "lower standard of proof" stance. It is lower than that to charge and arrest. As posted multiple times in the unbelievably numerous threads on this subject, DAs often arrest and charge to help uncover more evidence and to compel those with information to talk. It is a practice used to gather evidence in pursuit of the standard they need to attain to successfully prosecute.

Think of the amount of crimes that would never be charged if a prosecutor had to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt before filing charges?
 

Think of the amount of crimes that would never be charged if a prosecutor had to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt before filing charges?

No kidding. It is a bit frustrating that this keeps coming up as the reasonable explanation for differing outcomes in this situation...but, alas, this is GH.
 

If a doctor does not meet the standard of care in treating a patient, and the patient is injured by the Doctors actions, the patient can sue the doctor. That suit will provide all of contain due process protections provided by a court of law.

However there may be other ramifications for the Doctors misconduct. A state medical review board could look into the doctors act if a complaint is filed. The state board could decide to pull the doctors license. The license is property protected by due process rights, and the doctor can appeal to a court of law. The due process protections of the medical board do not have to be exactly the same as the protections afforded in a court of law. Due process can be fulfilled in forums without matching the process in a court room.
 

If a doctor does not meet the standard of care in treating a patient, and the patient is injured by the Doctors actions, the patient can sue the doctor. That suit will provide all of contain due process protections provided by a court of law.

However there may be other ramifications for the Doctors misconduct. A state medical review board could look into the doctors act if a complaint is filed. The state board could decide to pull the doctors license. The license is property protected by due process rights, and the doctor can appeal to a court of law. The due process protections of the medical board do not have to be exactly the same as the protections afforded in a court of law. Due process can be fulfilled in forums without matching the process in a court room.

Plucked this from another thread...you should probably read this and put yourself in the position being of the accused during this process.

http://www.rollbamaroll.com/2016/12/19/14013744/longform-inside-the-star-chamber
 

Plucked this from another thread...you should probably read this and put yourself in the position being of the accused during this process.

SOMEHOW IT LOOKS LIKE THE POST FORMATTING GOT MESSED UP


This is Gogogopher's Post: I am not saying the process is perfect; I get the shortcomings with the process, even the criminal justice system with all of its due process guarantees sometimes punishes innocent people. Maybe the courts will change the process, but there is, to some degree, due process in the current system. The point of my post was to demonstrate that there are other areas where due process plays out without a courtroom. Some on this board have been using the term "due process" as a mantra hoping it will deliver them to the promised land. It was an interesting read, though. I picked out some tidbits (quoted below) for others that didn't read it. The lack of protections normally afforded in a criminal investigation may have helped produce a more accurate picture of what happened on that fateful night. But so many on this board challenge the report anyway. People just don't want to accept the report. They have faith that there was consent, as if it were a religion- evidence to the contrary is not considered.

http://www.rollbamaroll.com/2016/12/19/14013744/longform-inside-the-star-chamber

Minnesota's case is a particularly trying one, even for those like the authors with formal legal education. You and I collectively want a just, fair outcome, and that speaks to our inherent sense of decency and outrage: Here we have a very sympathetic, credible victim; we have a true question as to whether consent was obtained from the first two alleged offenders; we have a bevy of physical evidence; we have witnesses who may or may not have statements and testimony that meet the constitutional and procedural safeguards of admissibility; we have a University who has followed its own rules and the OCR's mandates to the absolute letter. Worse, given the inaction by Twin Cities prosecutors, the school may represent the only real justice available to this victim.

The University of Minnesota has by all accounts acted thoroughly, diligently, fairly; it has followed the letter of the law and the very spirit of the OCR's "Dear Colleague' directives.
 

Minnesota's case is a particularly trying one, even for those like the authors with formal legal education. You and I collectively want a just, fair outcome, and that speaks to our inherent sense of decency and outrage: Here we have a very sympathetic, credible victim; we have a true question as to whether consent was obtained from the first two alleged offenders; we have a bevy of physical evidence; we have witnesses who may or may not have statements and testimony that meet the constitutional and procedural safeguards of admissibility; we have a University who has followed its own rules and the OCR's mandates to the absolute letter. Worse, given the inaction by Twin Cities prosecutors, the school may represent the only real justice available to this victim.


The University of Minnesota has by all accounts acted thoroughly, diligently, fairly; it has followed the letter of the law and the very spirit of the OCR's "Dear Colleague' directives.
I question the U's legal authority to investigate an off campus incident. State agencies need a specific grant of authority to investigate, the incident occurred off campus, what specific authority does the U have to investigate?
 

Minnesota's case is a particularly trying one, even for those like the authors with formal legal education. You and I collectively want a just, fair outcome, and that speaks to our inherent sense of decency and outrage: Here we have a very sympathetic, credible victim; we have a true question as to whether consent was obtained from the first two alleged offenders; we have a bevy of physical evidence; we have witnesses who may or may not have statements and testimony that meet the constitutional and procedural safeguards of admissibility; we have a University who has followed its own rules and the OCR's mandates to the absolute letter. Worse, given the inaction by Twin Cities prosecutors, the school may represent the only real justice available to this victim.

The University of Minnesota has by all accounts acted thoroughly, diligently, fairly; it has followed the letter of the law and the very spirit of the OCR's "Dear Colleague' directives.

Not sure what you are getting at here...that it's OK to just disregard the huge lack of Constitutional safeguards based on the perceived credibility of the accuser and an apparent large amount of potential evidence?

Couple that with the low threshold for burden of proof, the fact that these offices were never set up to handle complicated criminal situations, and you have a recipe for disaster. If you were accused under these circumstances and constraints on you but not the accuser, would you be comfortable with your ability to defend yourself?
 

I said above that I don't think the criminal justice system always gets it right. The higher burden of proof in criminal cases is because someone's freedom is at risk. If I was innocent and accused in the U system I would sure as hell hope to have a good attorney so I could win the appeal. But I would be comforted by the fact that the U could not put me in prison.

BTW, what i was getting at was the fact that the lawyers who wrote the article you quote THINK THE VICTIM IS CREDIBLE and they think the school is her only avenue for justice. They don't seem to think this is necessarily a great test case against the unjust process. Somany posters disagree with the authors of the article. They don't think she is credible, they think the report was thorough,diligent and fair. These guys are more against the system, not the way it was applied at the U.

Again from the article:
"But, it is the hard cases that make the worst precedent. When we try to achieve what we think approximates a just outcome, we set the stage for an abuse of the system, for administrators not quite so diligent as Minnesota, for evidence that isn't quite as credible, or, in many cases, doesn't exist beyond bare allegation or a notice of the charge -- if the accused is lucky."
 

I said above that I don't think the criminal justice system always gets it right. The higher burden of proof in criminal cases is because someone's freedom is at risk. If I was innocent and accused in the U system I would sure as hell hope to have a good attorney so I could win the appeal. But I would be comforted by the fact that the U could not put me in prison.

BTW, what i was getting at was the fact that the lawyers who wrote the article you quote THINK THE VICTIM IS CREDIBLE and they think the school is her only avenue for justice. They don't seem to think this is necessarily a great test case against the unjust process. Somany posters disagree with the authors of the article. They don't think she is credible, they think the report was thorough,diligent and fair. These guys are more against the system, not the way it was applied at the U.

Again from the article:
"But, it is the hard cases that make the worst precedent. When we try to achieve what we think approximates a just outcome, we set the stage for an abuse of the system, for administrators not quite so diligent as Minnesota, for evidence that isn't quite as credible, or, in many cases, doesn't exist beyond bare allegation or a notice of the charge -- if the accused is lucky."

Got it. You are OK with them finding you guilty without the ability to rebut any of the accuser's allegations. I'm not. Depending on the accusations, it's not prison, but you better believe the stakes can be very high for the accused...especially if they can't afford to mount a vigorous appeal.

The article rightly called the process a Kangaroo Court. The accused essentially start in a position of guilt. Diligence on any school's part can not overcome that fact.
 

My first post as I signed up looking for a board after the story broke.

After reading the comments, I don’t believe that there is a single person on this board stating that the players are being unfairly because they view the football team through maroon colored glasses which make them instinctively doubt the girl or because they want so see the players on the field to increase our cases of winning the bowl at the expense of minimizing the seriousness of sexual assault. THERE ARE NO RAPE DEFENDERS HERE – PERIOD!

What people are reacting to is what they perceive to be the rank unfairness of the EOAA process with this case being their first exposure to this process. So, it is not that they did not care about this prior to football players being charged, it is that 99% of people had no clue the EOAA even existed previously.

One main issue I have is that the EOAA is putting forth a finding of fact with regard to a CRIMINAL charge – Sexual Assault. They are putting forth this finding of fact using a 51% threshold and arrive at this conclusion despite lacking any true investigatory authority (subpoena power, access to police reports, access to medical files, etc.), investigatory expertise, expectation from the University of the findings being non-biased (as evidenced by the composition and background of the EOAA members) and not providing the accused basic rights such as legal representation. I think this almost makes it to the point of violation of UN charter on human rights. Now, a 51% threshold may be fine for rulings on violations of school policies like plagiarism or cheating - these are not CRIMINAL ACTONS. Further, a ruling against the student for these actions does not have the same life altering consequences of a finding of sexual assault. They don’t put the pictures of plagiarists in the Star Tribune. If the students are so inclined, they simply enroll in another institution and omit any mention of their prior studies at the school which dismissed them. I know of a case where this was done.

However, the finding of the person being guilty of sexual assault – RAPE – cannot simply swept under the rug and the student moved to another institution. It is a stigma that will follow the person for the rest of their life. Rapist is a life altering label that should not be applied by an organization such as the EOAA but should be reserved for the US court system which has the proper authority – both civil and criminal (if you think the 51% threshold is the one that should be used) arms. Regardless of how this plays out moving forward, these players lives and reputations have been unrecoverably damaged. I do hope that they can successfully sue everyone involved and get the financial compensation that they deserve from this injustice done to them by the EOAA and U. Barring the students losing a criminal or civil suit on the rape allegation, the U is 100% in the wrong with how this has been handled.

As for those stating that they have an appeal so there is still due process, I cannot disagree more strongly. They NEVER had the benefit innocent until proven guilty during this entire EOAA ordeal and they definitely don’t have it after the EOAA delivered their finding of facts. Imagine a US court that did not allow you to have a lawyer present during your trial and only allowed them to participate in the appeal. Imagine a US court system where you are unable to face your accuser and cannot compel them to provide available and known evidence that supports innocence. Imagine a US court system where they did not have a trained judge and rules regarding what evidence is relevant to the case at hand and is admissible (such as the non-related text messages). Imagine a court system which ignored the findings of the police as to whether a criminal act took place – instead relying solely on untrained professionals disregarding the trained authority to reach their own conclusions based almost 100% on their determination of ‘credibility’ while ignoring evidence?

I am not a rape defender – no one is. But this process is a joke and should never have been able to implemented in its current form. I don’t have an issue regarding the U making determinations on compliance with the honor code – but CRIMINAL ACTS should not be within their jurisdiction. If they insist on bypassing the entities in a positon with the authority to make rulings on criminal actions – the police and US court system – then their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings. They should be barred from making any public statements and using terms such as “victim” in any public communication. The people condemning the players without hearing all of the evidence – and it is impossible for them to have heard it as the EOAA lacks investigatory power and the police dropped this based on lack of confidence in a chargeable offense prior to completing a thorough investigation – are not true believers in American values.

As a last point – would you think it would be fair for your current employer to brand you a rapist based on your conduct with a co-worker and then publicize that finding in the newspaper and press conferences? Do you think your current employer should have the right to make that ruling or do you think that should be the responsibility of the court system? I don’t think anyone want a private company making that distinction for them – but a lot here have no issue with the U making that distinction.

This is the absolute best it could be put. If you don't agree with this, you pretty much are saying that the truth is not really what we after.
 

I have never said that and never defended that point.
First my overarching point has always been the University should have suspended the players for violations of team rules indefinitely and that is what should have been announced to the media in the first place, not that they were facing any suspension from school or expulsion just that they have been suspended from the team indefinitely and they really did need to wait until that internal investigation was completed. Not fair, maybe but it is what could have protected confidentiality for all sides.
I say this violation of team rules thing, because I wanted confidentiality for all sides.
None of the players should have ever been reinstated from the first suspensions specifically the initial four. This way not all players would have been lumped together in the same column after this latest group of suspensions was released.
All players and University administration should have been under a no comment rule for anything that caused the suspensions from the football program. Playing for the University of Minnesota and being a scholarship athlete is not a right, it is a privilege and you sign on to those standards when agreeing to the scholarship as well as the school's conduct policy when you sign it. All students sign that and that conduct code should be enforced evenly. It also means that all measures of sealing conduct violations should be in place and all records should be sealed even the investigative finding of that committee. For me it was important that confidentiality should remain in place from all parties(this includes players). That was the intent of releasing these suspensions when it happened other to say they cannot comment beyond the announcement because of privacy reasons. To me the administration wanted to grandstand and make themselves out to be what they are not, pruveyors of all things righteous and to protect funding from the federal government due to Title IX policy. I personally disagree with this preponderance of the evidence and 51% stuff of the title IX investigation, and making press releases that can damage any and all students reputations without a fair hearing.

These suspensions from the title nine investigation should have been left at that, and not announced in a press release reporting on the cause of the suspensions, the reasons for these suspensions should not have been released by anyone. Commenting that they were the result of that Title IX investigation should have waited, because the appeals process had not taken place yet, no details should have been provided whatsoever by players or University of Minnesota administration. There would have been a lot less damage to the University and everyone else. Everyone would have been best served if that was the policy, suspended for violation of team rules and left it at that.

I can't say I agree with everything you note here. However, what I am in complete support of is your perspective on managing a very difficult situation as elegantly as possible to minimize collateral damage to the University and all involved in the situation. Essentially, not allowing it to blow up and take on a life of its own. MC and EK are exceedingly negligent in this respect. And, thus, the entire situation has spiraled completely out of control.
 

Plucked this from another thread...you should probably read this and put yourself in the position being of the accused during this process.

http://www.rollbamaroll.com/2016/12/19/14013744/longform-inside-the-star-chamber

That article lays out the legal ground very well. It is interesting to contrast the Alabama SB nation article and the intelligent comments section to the Daily Gopher site, which seems to be comprised of students and recent grads where most are primarily horrified at the gang bang behavior and less so about the obliteration of civil rights. What kind of education is the U giving these days?

From the article:

Civil standards applied to serious criminal matters

What does the change of this evidentiary threshold mean? "Preponderance of the evidence", the standard applied to civil matters is a much lower hurdle to clear, as you would expect. Essentially, one looks at the evidence, and if there's 50.1% in favor of a finding against the accused, then there is a finding against the accused. "Clear and convincing" means that the evidence has to be much more heavily weighted in favor of a finding against the accused. It is not all the way to "beyond a reasonable doubt," but the two are close neighbors.

Other changes set forth by the OCR are a restriction of the role of counsel for the respondent -- a lawyer can be present but may not represent the accused; the requirement that the complainant be permitted to appeal the decision of the college -- not just the accused; and, that the definition of sexual harassment has been broadened dramatically. That definition has taken on a life of its own that is so broad as to lack any meaning, "any unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature… including verbal conduct."

The problem with the preponderance standard in this specific setting is that there’s no right of cross-examination, no right to perform an investigation on one’s behalf if accused. Let's compare this with civil trials. Those also have a "preponderance" standard, but when I'm doing a civil trial, I have the right to cross-examine witnesses, to issue my own subpoenas and compel a witness to attend in person, the right to pre-trial hearings on whether or not certain evidence is to be admitted.

In OCR cases, there's not only no constitutional protections for the accused, there are not even evidentiary protections in place: The accused can not call witnesses. The accused cannot question or enter into the record evidence of a complainant's mental state. The accused cannot enter into evidence previous statements of the complainant or previous specific actions which may indicate consent. As a practical matter of fact, there is a bias in the campus process against the accused.

Why is that so bad? If the bar to clear for a finding against the accused is only 50.1%, and there is an inherent bias against the accused from the start, how likely do you think that it is that the accused will get a fair, unbiased hearing?

In many instances, the colleges don't tell you with any specificity what you've been accused of doing. In one case I handled, the accused was charged with "possible sexual misconduct on [X date]." That was the sum total of the charges against him. What the heck does that even mean? If you don't know what you're being charged with, then how can you possibly mount a defense? This is particularly relevant in a charge where, by all accounts, there was sexual conduct- he says it was consensual, she says it wasn't...sorta. Some of it was. Some of it wasn’t, she said. What specific acts were not consented to? Who knows, and the schools may insist on interviewing the accused before any specific details become known.

By attending a University that receives federal funding, students have unknowingly signed away their Constitutional protections.
 




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