Question about due process argument

U2Gopher

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What is the basis for the due process argument? Parallel this with the legal system for a moment. If u r accused of a major crime, say murder or even rape, u could be arrested an jailed until you get your due process to a trial. Yes, you could ask for bail and it could be granted or denied based on the situation. The point is, if denied you could sit in jail and have your life seriously interrupted until your trial. U still get your due process however.

Now let's look at this situation. The guys stand accused and a recommendation of action was given for punishment. The school can't throw u in jail like the legal system can, but their equivalent of that is your suspension from school activities. Just as in the legal system u could have your life interrupted until your trial/appeal.

With this being the case, how r their due process rights being denied? They r still going to have their "day in court." We all may disagree with how that court is held but that is on Obama and/or current political leaders, not the U.

I think the school was in a tough spot. U can argue that Coyle and Kahler have handled the press and players poorly communication wise but I think the school did the best it could. If it is finally proven that these players did commit this act, I would be really upset if I had a daughter attending the U and they allowed her to attend classes with some they new had committed the alleged acts.


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My first post as I signed up looking for a board after the story broke.

After reading the comments, I don’t believe that there is a single person on this board stating that the players are being unfairly because they view the football team through maroon colored glasses which make them instinctively doubt the girl or because they want so see the players on the field to increase our cases of winning the bowl at the expense of minimizing the seriousness of sexual assault. THERE ARE NO RAPE DEFENDERS HERE – PERIOD!

What people are reacting to is what they perceive to be the rank unfairness of the EOAA process with this case being their first exposure to this process. So, it is not that they did not care about this prior to football players being charged, it is that 99% of people had no clue the EOAA even existed previously.

One main issue I have is that the EOAA is putting forth a finding of fact with regard to a CRIMINAL charge – Sexual Assault. They are putting forth this finding of fact using a 51% threshold and arrive at this conclusion despite lacking any true investigatory authority (subpoena power, access to police reports, access to medical files, etc.), investigatory expertise, expectation from the University of the findings being non-biased (as evidenced by the composition and background of the EOAA members) and not providing the accused basic rights such as legal representation. I think this almost makes it to the point of violation of UN charter on human rights. Now, a 51% threshold may be fine for rulings on violations of school policies like plagiarism or cheating - these are not CRIMINAL ACTONS. Further, a ruling against the student for these actions does not have the same life altering consequences of a finding of sexual assault. They don’t put the pictures of plagiarists in the Star Tribune. If the students are so inclined, they simply enroll in another institution and omit any mention of their prior studies at the school which dismissed them. I know of a case where this was done.

However, the finding of the person being guilty of sexual assault – RAPE – cannot simply swept under the rug and the student moved to another institution. It is a stigma that will follow the person for the rest of their life. Rapist is a life altering label that should not be applied by an organization such as the EOAA but should be reserved for the US court system which has the proper authority – both civil and criminal (if you think the 51% threshold is the one that should be used) arms. Regardless of how this plays out moving forward, these players lives and reputations have been unrecoverably damaged. I do hope that they can successfully sue everyone involved and get the financial compensation that they deserve from this injustice done to them by the EOAA and U. Barring the students losing a criminal or civil suit on the rape allegation, the U is 100% in the wrong with how this has been handled.

As for those stating that they have an appeal so there is still due process, I cannot disagree more strongly. They NEVER had the benefit innocent until proven guilty during this entire EOAA ordeal and they definitely don’t have it after the EOAA delivered their finding of facts. Imagine a US court that did not allow you to have a lawyer present during your trial and only allowed them to participate in the appeal. Imagine a US court system where you are unable to face your accuser and cannot compel them to provide available and known evidence that supports innocence. Imagine a US court system where they did not have a trained judge and rules regarding what evidence is relevant to the case at hand and is admissible (such as the non-related text messages). Imagine a court system which ignored the findings of the police as to whether a criminal act took place – instead relying solely on untrained professionals disregarding the trained authority to reach their own conclusions based almost 100% on their determination of ‘credibility’ while ignoring evidence?

I am not a rape defender – no one is. But this process is a joke and should never have been able to implemented in its current form. I don’t have an issue regarding the U making determinations on compliance with the honor code – but CRIMINAL ACTS should not be within their jurisdiction. If they insist on bypassing the entities in a positon with the authority to make rulings on criminal actions – the police and US court system – then their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings. They should be barred from making any public statements and using terms such as “victim” in any public communication. The people condemning the players without hearing all of the evidence – and it is impossible for them to have heard it as the EOAA lacks investigatory power and the police dropped this based on lack of confidence in a chargeable offense prior to completing a thorough investigation – are not true believers in American values.

As a last point – would you think it would be fair for your current employer to brand you a rapist based on your conduct with a co-worker and then publicize that finding in the newspaper and press conferences? Do you think your current employer should have the right to make that ruling or do you think that should be the responsibility of the court system? I don’t think anyone want a private company making that distinction for them – but a lot here have no issue with the U making that distinction.
 

My first post as I signed up looking for a board after the story broke.

After reading the comments, I don’t believe that there is a single person on this board stating that the players are being unfairly because they view the football team through maroon colored glasses which make them instinctively doubt the girl or because they want so see the players on the field to increase our cases of winning the bowl at the expense of minimizing the seriousness of sexual assault. THERE ARE NO RAPE DEFENDERS HERE – PERIOD!

What people are reacting to is what they perceive to be the rank unfairness of the EOAA process with this case being their first exposure to this process. So, it is not that they did not care about this prior to football players being charged, it is that 99% of people had no clue the EOAA even existed previously.

One main issue I have is that the EOAA is putting forth a finding of fact with regard to a CRIMINAL charge – Sexual Assault. They are putting forth this finding of fact using a 51% threshold and arrive at this conclusion despite lacking any true investigatory authority (subpoena power, access to police reports, access to medical files, etc.), investigatory expertise, expectation from the University of the findings being non-biased (as evidenced by the composition and background of the EOAA members) and not providing the accused basic rights such as legal representation. I think this almost makes it to the point of violation of UN charter on human rights. Now, a 51% threshold may be fine for rulings on violations of school policies like plagiarism or cheating - these are not CRIMINAL ACTONS. Further, a ruling against the student for these actions does not have the same life altering consequences of a finding of sexual assault. They don’t put the pictures of plagiarists in the Star Tribune. If the students are so inclined, they simply enroll in another institution and omit any mention of their prior studies at the school which dismissed them. I know of a case where this was done.

However, the finding of the person being guilty of sexual assault – RAPE – cannot simply swept under the rug and the student moved to another institution. It is a stigma that will follow the person for the rest of their life. Rapist is a life altering label that should not be applied by an organization such as the EOAA but should be reserved for the US court system which has the proper authority – both civil and criminal (if you think the 51% threshold is the one that should be used) arms. Regardless of how this plays out moving forward, these players lives and reputations have been unrecoverably damaged. I do hope that they can successfully sue everyone involved and get the financial compensation that they deserve from this injustice done to them by the EOAA and U. Barring the students losing a criminal or civil suit on the rape allegation, the U is 100% in the wrong with how this has been handled.

As for those stating that they have an appeal so there is still due process, I cannot disagree more strongly. They NEVER had the benefit innocent until proven guilty during this entire EOAA ordeal and they definitely don’t have it after the EOAA delivered their finding of facts. Imagine a US court that did not allow you to have a lawyer present during your trial and only allowed them to participate in the appeal. Imagine a US court system where you are unable to face your accuser and cannot compel them to provide available and known evidence that supports innocence. Imagine a US court system where they did not have a trained judge and rules regarding what evidence is relevant to the case at hand and is admissible (such as the non-related text messages). Imagine a court system which ignored the findings of the police as to whether a criminal act took place – instead relying solely on untrained professionals disregarding the trained authority to reach their own conclusions based almost 100% on their determination of ‘credibility’ while ignoring evidence?

I am not a rape defender – no one is. But this process is a joke and should never have been able to implemented in its current form. I don’t have an issue regarding the U making determinations on compliance with the honor code – but CRIMINAL ACTS should not be within their jurisdiction. If they insist on bypassing the entities in a positon with the authority to make rulings on criminal actions – the police and US court system – then their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings. They should be barred from making any public statements and using terms such as “victim” in any public communication. The people condemning the players without hearing all of the evidence – and it is impossible for them to have heard it as the EOAA lacks investigatory power and the police dropped this based on lack of confidence in a chargeable offense prior to completing a thorough investigation – are not true believers in American values.

As a last point – would you think it would be fair for your current employer to brand you a rapist based on your conduct with a co-worker and then publicize that finding in the newspaper and press conferences? Do you think your current employer should have the right to make that ruling or do you think that should be the responsibility of the court system? I don’t think anyone want a private company making that distinction for them – but a lot here have no issue with the U making that distinction.


Your post is a great one and I must say I tend to agree with it. I wasn't arguing one way or another with my post, just wanted to get some more pointed dialogue on the due process argument itself. Again, nice post and good food for thought.


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Well, they have to call it something. "Due process" is probably not exactly the right phrase, but it does help differentiate it from "supporting sexual assault."

I think the players threatened the boycott for two reasons:

1) The five players originally investigated by police had been cleared and they thought that was enough. The were not educated properly on the EOAA investigation and its lower standard for action.

2) They were surprised and angry that the other five guys were suspended (and for so long) when they were never in trouble in the first place.

They didn't know the process, they didn't know the rules, they had no idea this was a real possibility. And now that they've been better educated, they need to call say something. This all stems back to horrific communication from Mark Coyle, in particular. Lee Hutton probably didn't help them much, either.
 



They didn't know the process, they didn't know the rules, they had no idea this was a real possibility.

Granted I graduated a generation ago, but I had no idea that this EOAA existed. I attended a few different universities in my time and the only thing that seems on par with the EOAA would be power wielded by RA's in dorms. In those situations, the student had no real rights and guilt was 100% assumed prior to the hearings.

I think you are right that the entire process shocked everyone - the players, the casual fans, and probably even the girl. Based on player comments that some thought they were just there as witnesse and the fact that they did not INSTANTLY lawyer up and actually engaged in the process at all, it proves to me that the U and athletic department completely dropped the ball. I think part of it again goes back to just how unfair this process is by design - but a big part is the lack of understanding of the process overall.
 

Clearly the EOAA office wanted to throw down the hammer. And maybe rightly so.

The fact that we are all still hungover from pain of Mega-Tongue, B-ball XXX Productions, Wrestling Xanaxgate, etc probably did not help the players' cause (at least some of the periphery players.)

So there may be a bit of "sacrificial lamb" to this all.

Fair? Maybe not.

But on the flip side of the argument, what the F were the players thinking? Even if they thought in their heart of hearts that it was 100% consensual (I have my doubts), what the F were they thinking? They knew about the b-ball tape.

They should be expelled just for being stupid.
 

Along with providing a safe environment for all of their students colleges have to balance the interests of both the accused and the accuser in these kinds of cases. In the criminal justice area everything is stacked against rape victims because of protections given to criminal defendants in the U.S. Constitution. This case is no longer a criminal matter. This is a Student Code of Conduct case with a much lower standard of proof needed for colleges to enforce codes of conduct. For people who want to tilt the student disciplinary process totally against rape victims even though it is not legally required - I am not with you. The overall risk to falsely accused perpetrators of sexual violence is far less than the risk that true victims of sexual violence will have no recourse open to them and they will be left with no protection from further attacks and harassment from their attacker(s).

The EOAA investigation is part of the Title IX disciplinary process used by every college in the country. Furthermore, I think just about every college has an interim suspension policy for sexual harassment and sexual assault cases. This isn't something the U dreamed up by itself. Interim suspensions are necessary for schools to be able to protect victims of sexual harassment and violence from further attacks and violence. With such suspensions there is clearly a risk that students might be falsely accused before they have had a hearing and that would be an injustice if the EOAA investigation gets it wrong. But I think most reasonable people would agree that interim suspensions after EOAA investigations are absolutely necessary for schools to provide a safe environment for their students.

After the EOAA investigation the process now moves to the hearings where the players will be represented by an attorney and will be able to challenge everything in the EOAA report. They will be able to call there own witnesses and cross examine adverse witnesses. If the decision goes against them then they can appeal. If they lose the appeal they can sue the U in federal court. And if they prevail in federal court the players will then be able to bring lawsuits for damages against the U and the girl. Win or lose all 10 players will have had their day in court.

It has been repeated over and over again in GH over the last three days. Because criminal prosecutors did not charge the accused players because of insufficient evidence does not mean they didn't commit the crime. OJ got off on his criminal trial but he lost the civil case against him because of the lower standard of proof for such cases. That is what we are presented with here. Hennepin County declined to prosecute so the U had to investigate the case to determine if the Student Code of Conduct was violated. For colleges not to be able to do this would prevent them from taking necessary action to keep their campuses safe and it would stack the process totally against victims of sexual violence on every campus in America.
 




They should be expelled just for being stupid.

I am 100% for kicking everyone that had sex with this girl off the team. However, if the process was run in a fair manner with legal representation for other players, there would not have been any incriminating statements. While we now know those statements exist (per the EOAA) and cannot be put back in the bottle, any credible legal representation would have stopped those comments from every being made. It is clear that NOTHING the players said in the EOAA hearing helped their cause so the ones that did not have sex would have been much better served by simply remaining silent throughout the process - which would have been their right in a US court as demonstrated by the girl doing just that. Same goes with the 'destruction of evidence'. Unless they were under a subpoena to turn over everything and then went on a mass deletion spree, this allegation has no merit and the U has not legal authority to demand it regardless

That said, and I realize how this is going to come off, but I think the girl should be removed from any athletics functions. She admitted to having sex with a drunk recruit. While the U has determined that not to be a reportable offense as a recruiting violation, I think it placed the U in great danger, and if this is not a violation of the code of conduct, I would be shocked. She should be barred from representing the U and maybe even expelled from the U for that action and I think that would be in motion already had she not claimed she was raped the same night (perhaps even the same incident).

This is a mess all the way due to the way it was handled and tainted the possibility of a fair process. They should restart the EOAA process completely and be limited to the statements made in the police report and any statements made from this point forward. All statements made during the prior EOAA 'investigation' without legal representation present should be tossed out.
 

I am 100% for kicking everyone that had sex with this girl off the team. However, if the process was run in a fair manner with legal representation for other players, there would not have been any incriminating statements. While we now know those statements exist (per the EOAA) and cannot be put back in the bottle, any credible legal representation would have stopped those comments from every being made. It is clear that NOTHING the players said in the EOAA hearing helped their cause so the ones that did not have sex would have been much better served by simply remaining silent throughout the process - which would have been their right in a US court as demonstrated by the girl doing just that. Same goes with the 'destruction of evidence'. Unless they were under a subpoena to turn over everything and then went on a mass deletion spree, this allegation has no merit and the U has not legal authority to demand it regardless

That said, and I realize how this is going to come off, but I think the girl should be removed from any athletics functions. She admitted to having sex with a drunk recruit. While the U has determined that not to be a reportable offense as a recruiting violation, I think it placed the U in great danger, and if this is not a violation of the code of conduct, I would be shocked. She should be barred from representing the U and maybe even expelled from the U for that action and I think that would be in motion already had she not claimed she was raped the same night (perhaps even the same incident).

This is a mess all the way due to the way it was handled and tainted the possibility of a fair process. They should restart the EOAA process completely and be limited to the statements made in the police report and any statements made from this point forward. All statements made during the prior EOAA 'investigation' without legal representation present should be tossed out.

Not a good effort. You just destroyed any credibility you gained with your first post.
 

This is a Student Code of Conduct case with a much lower standard of proof needed for colleges to enforce codes of conduct.

After the EOAA investigation the process now moves to the hearings where the players will be represented by an attorney and will be able to challenge everything in the EOAA report.

2 Points: First, branding someone guilty of sexual assault (Rapist) is a LEGAL/CRIMINAL term and we all know what it means and what it implies. Frankly, I don't want a biased agency outside of the US government making that determination.

Second - if you cannot understand how the ridiculous the process is when you are only given legal representation and protection from self-incrimination AFTER the investigation where your statements WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU, I don't know what to tell you. The actual US court system has these 2 elements as its foundation because they are required for a fair process.
 

No a good effort. You just destroyed any credibility you gained with your post.

I have read all your comments on this topic. You have clearly decided to pass judgement in the absence of all the facts and seem to think the EOAA process is fair based solely on that fact that it exists and other universities have been forced to adopt it. Wrong on both accounts.
 




After the EOAA investigation the process now moves to the hearings where the players will be represented by an attorney and will be able to challenge everything in the EOAA report. They will be able to call there own witnesses and cross examine adverse witnesses. If the decision goes against them then they can appeal. If they lose the appeal they can sue the U in federal court. And if they prevail in federal court the players will then be able to bring lawsuits for damages against the U and the girl. Win or lose all 10 players will have had their day in court.

My issue with the process is why doesn't this occur before any discipline is handed down? All 10 players are now labeled as rapists in the public court of opinion no matter what happens in the appeals process. The process is not equal before the determinations are made.

There was a situation in Colorado recently where the accused wasn't even interviewed by the school before a determination was made. The process sucks.
 


No a good effort. You just destroyed any credibility you gained with your post.

You lost credibility a long time ago when you essentially said young men can't help themselves in these situations so they have to be guilty. Your mind was made up long before you read the report.
 

I have read all your comments on this topic. You have clearly decided to pass judgement in the absence of all the facts and seem to think the EOAA process is fair based solely on that fact that it exists and other universities have been forced to adopt it. Wrong on both accounts.

Thanks for joining and posting. Pay no attention to UpNorth. He represents his thinking alone.


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2 Points: First, branding someone guilty of sexual assault (Rapist) is a LEGAL/CRIMINAL term and we all know what it means and what it implies. Frankly, I don't want a biased agency outside of the US government making that determination.

Second - if you cannot understand how the ridiculous the process is when you are only given legal representation and protection from self-incrimination AFTER the investigation where your statements WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU, I don't know what to tell you. The actual US court system has these 2 elements as its foundation because they are required for a fair process.

What if sexual assault was not the same as rape? What if protection from self-incrimination during the investigation phase was not part of your due process rights in student disciplinary proceedings? What if the students were in fact entitled to have an attorney present if they had been smart enough to bring one?
 

"I am not a rape defender – no one is. But this process is a joke and should never have been able to implemented in its current form. I don’t have an issue regarding the U making determinations on compliance with the honor code – but CRIMINAL ACTS should not be within their jurisdiction. If they insist on bypassing the entities in a position with the authority to make rulings on criminal actions – the police and US court system – then their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings. They should be barred from making any public statements and using terms such as “victim” in any public communication. The people condemning the players without hearing all of the evidence – and it is impossible for them to have heard it as the EOAA lacks investigatory power and the police dropped this based on lack of confidence in a chargeable offense prior to completing a thorough investigation – are not true believers in American values."

Class of 99 well said, this is the part I have struggled with most and what I believe should have happened with the EOAA report. "their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings." None of the information about what these students were suspended for should have been reported by the media, and media organizations. This was a school disciplinary action, handed down because of the school's code of conduct violations. That is all that should have been released and reported on by the media, and no specifics as to why the suspension occured should have been broadcast to the media by anyone, not even the players themselves.
 

I am 100% for kicking everyone that had sex with this girl off the team. However, if the process was run in a fair manner with legal representation for other players, there would not have been any incriminating statements. While we now know those statements exist (per the EOAA) and cannot be put back in the bottle, any credible legal representation would have stopped those comments from every being made. It is clear that NOTHING the players said in the EOAA hearing helped their cause so the ones that did not have sex would have been much better served by simply remaining silent throughout the process - which would have been their right in a US court as demonstrated by the girl doing just that. Same goes with the 'destruction of evidence'. Unless they were under a subpoena to turn over everything and then went on a mass deletion spree, this allegation has no merit and the U has not legal authority to demand it regardless

That said, and I realize how this is going to come off, but I think the girl should be removed from any athletics functions. She admitted to having sex with a drunk recruit. While the U has determined that not to be a reportable offense as a recruiting violation, I think it placed the U in great danger, and if this is not a violation of the code of conduct, I would be shocked. She should be barred from representing the U and maybe even expelled from the U for that action and I think that would be in motion already had she not claimed she was raped the same night (perhaps even the same incident).

This is a mess all the way due to the way it was handled and tainted the possibility of a fair process. They should restart the EOAA process completely and be limited to the statements made in the police report and any statements made from this point forward. All statements made during the prior EOAA 'investigation' without legal representation present should be tossed out.

I agree with UpNorth, you just destroyed any credibility with this post. You think she should be barred from representing the U and maybe even expelled but say nothing of the player that likely gave the recruit alcohol and invited him into the room. Your guise of respect for due process is shattered.
 

So gopherdude, the university shouldn't have any rules that parallel criminal acts? Why not? I don't get that at all. They're not bypassing the police and court system, not even a little bit. There are simply two sets of rules that students live their lives under, not unlike the fact that I could be acquitted of assaulting a co-worker but fired from my job for the exact same conduct because I violated company policy on workplace violence.
 

Here are my main concerns:

1. The standard of evidence is way too low. I understand that's not really something the U had power over, but it's still way too low.

2. As far as I can tell, the players' lawyer didn't get to cross examine the reporting student. I am not too familiar with the process so I may be wrong on this one though.

3. The board was clearly biased. Too many females, too liberal, and not impartial. They know that this decision can impact their future career which leads them towards deciding in favor of the accuser.

4. At least in the leaked report, there are no transcripts of the interviews with the accuser, the accused, or other witnesses, yet they draw conclusions based on those interviews. Not sure if the players got a report with all of the evidence but it seems like they are trying to hide that.

5. They are fine with the inconsistencies in the accuser's story but not in the players'. 10 people are going to be less consistent than 1 even if they are telling the truth.

6. It appears that one of the videos that the police had wasn't included in the investigation, nor was the new piece of electronic evidence.

7. The word "victim" is being used way too early and is painting the players as guilty.

It's clear that the players involved messed up. I don't think anyone is arguing that what happened that night is good. I think it's also clear that the team has an attitude and culture problem and that they aren't controlled as tightly as they should be. Next year, I'd be all for the coach (whether that be TC or someone else) making new team rules that are much stricter. I would be for the coach making rules strict enough that would punish anyone involved in the incident at all, even if it was consensual just given the fact that the girl was drinking. None of that excuses the way this was dealt with though.

Hypothetically, if it never made it to the EOAA, the team could have punished the players, potentially including year long suspensions, and "rape" would have never been tied to their name unless it was brought to a court. I think the problem is in part because the team isn't strict enough about these kinds of things. That doesn't excuse how the EOAA, Kaler, and Coyle dealt with it though.
 

You think she should be barred from representing the U and maybe even expelled but say nothing of the player that likely gave the recruit alcohol and invited him into the room.

Here is a hypothetical for you:

A drug dealer is ripped off by drug buyer that then shoots him in the leg. The drug dealer - after being shot and a victim or robbery, reports this action to the police. Should the police arrest the drug dealer for possession with intent to distribute drugs AND arrest the guy that shot him or simply ignore this fact and focus solely on the guy that shot him?

Whether you realize it or not, this is a similar situation and I don't think you would have the same pity on the drug dealer that you have for the girl. She willingly engaged in an illegal sex act with a minor under the influence of alcohol. Had the situation been reversed, I am sure you stance on this would be quite different. Further, she has already fully admitted to the crime in her police statement. As far as I am aware, not a single player implicated has made a single statement to the POLICE (which is the only legitimate power in a criminal investigation), that the sex was anything but consensual.

To your point, the fact that a player made a video of an underage person performing a sexual act - and this fact is nowhere to be seen in the EOAA report as a violation of the code of conduct (not to mention being clearly against the CRIMINAL LAW), is shocking to me. If I am a prosecutor, I look at what charges are the easiest to prove and this is a no brainer.
 

Class of 99 well said, this is the part I have struggled with most and what I believe should have happened with the EOAA report. "their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings." None of the information about what these students were suspended for should have been reported by the media, and media organizations. This was a school disciplinary action, handed down because of the school's code of conduct violations. That is all that should have been released and reported on by the media, and no specifics as to why the suspension occured should have been broadcast to the media by anyone, not even the players themselves.

If the players had been suspended/expelled with absolutely no justification given whatsoever, this board would have been irate about the lack of transparency.
 

My first post as I signed up looking for a board after the story broke.

After reading the comments, I don’t believe that there is a single person on this board stating that the players are being unfairly because they view the football team through maroon colored glasses which make them instinctively doubt the girl or because they want so see the players on the field to increase our cases of winning the bowl at the expense of minimizing the seriousness of sexual assault. THERE ARE NO RAPE DEFENDERS HERE – PERIOD!

What people are reacting to is what they perceive to be the rank unfairness of the EOAA process with this case being their first exposure to this process. So, it is not that they did not care about this prior to football players being charged, it is that 99% of people had no clue the EOAA even existed previously.

One main issue I have is that the EOAA is putting forth a finding of fact with regard to a CRIMINAL charge – Sexual Assault. They are putting forth this finding of fact using a 51% threshold and arrive at this conclusion despite lacking any true investigatory authority (subpoena power, access to police reports, access to medical files, etc.), investigatory expertise, expectation from the University of the findings being non-biased (as evidenced by the composition and background of the EOAA members) and not providing the accused basic rights such as legal representation. I think this almost makes it to the point of violation of UN charter on human rights. Now, a 51% threshold may be fine for rulings on violations of school policies like plagiarism or cheating - these are not CRIMINAL ACTONS. Further, a ruling against the student for these actions does not have the same life altering consequences of a finding of sexual assault. They don’t put the pictures of plagiarists in the Star Tribune. If the students are so inclined, they simply enroll in another institution and omit any mention of their prior studies at the school which dismissed them. I know of a case where this was done.

However, the finding of the person being guilty of sexual assault – RAPE – cannot simply swept under the rug and the student moved to another institution. It is a stigma that will follow the person for the rest of their life. Rapist is a life altering label that should not be applied by an organization such as the EOAA but should be reserved for the US court system which has the proper authority – both civil and criminal (if you think the 51% threshold is the one that should be used) arms. Regardless of how this plays out moving forward, these players lives and reputations have been unrecoverably damaged. I do hope that they can successfully sue everyone involved and get the financial compensation that they deserve from this injustice done to them by the EOAA and U. Barring the students losing a criminal or civil suit on the rape allegation, the U is 100% in the wrong with how this has been handled.

As for those stating that they have an appeal so there is still due process, I cannot disagree more strongly. They NEVER had the benefit innocent until proven guilty during this entire EOAA ordeal and they definitely don’t have it after the EOAA delivered their finding of facts. Imagine a US court that did not allow you to have a lawyer present during your trial and only allowed them to participate in the appeal. Imagine a US court system where you are unable to face your accuser and cannot compel them to provide available and known evidence that supports innocence. Imagine a US court system where they did not have a trained judge and rules regarding what evidence is relevant to the case at hand and is admissible (such as the non-related text messages). Imagine a court system which ignored the findings of the police as to whether a criminal act took place – instead relying solely on untrained professionals disregarding the trained authority to reach their own conclusions based almost 100% on their determination of ‘credibility’ while ignoring evidence?

I am not a rape defender – no one is. But this process is a joke and should never have been able to implemented in its current form. I don’t have an issue regarding the U making determinations on compliance with the honor code – but CRIMINAL ACTS should not be within their jurisdiction. If they insist on bypassing the entities in a positon with the authority to make rulings on criminal actions – the police and US court system – then their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings. They should be barred from making any public statements and using terms such as “victim” in any public communication. The people condemning the players without hearing all of the evidence – and it is impossible for them to have heard it as the EOAA lacks investigatory power and the police dropped this based on lack of confidence in a chargeable offense prior to completing a thorough investigation – are not true believers in American values.

As a last point – would you think it would be fair for your current employer to brand you a rapist based on your conduct with a co-worker and then publicize that finding in the newspaper and press conferences? Do you think your current employer should have the right to make that ruling or do you think that should be the responsibility of the court system? I don’t think anyone want a private company making that distinction for them – but a lot here have no issue with the U making that distinction.

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If the players had been suspended/expelled with absolutely no justification given whatsoever, this board would have been irate about the lack of transparency.

True, but the university is going to be on the hook for appeasing this message board rather than following correct disclosure procedure.
 

"I am not a rape defender – no one is. But this process is a joke and should never have been able to implemented in its current form. I don’t have an issue regarding the U making determinations on compliance with the honor code – but CRIMINAL ACTS should not be within their jurisdiction. If they insist on bypassing the entities in a position with the authority to make rulings on criminal actions – the police and US court system – then their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings. They should be barred from making any public statements and using terms such as “victim” in any public communication. The people condemning the players without hearing all of the evidence – and it is impossible for them to have heard it as the EOAA lacks investigatory power and the police dropped this based on lack of confidence in a chargeable offense prior to completing a thorough investigation – are not true believers in American values."

Class of 99 well said, this is the part I have struggled with most and what I believe should have happened with the EOAA report. "their rulings should be forever sealed under the strictest of confidences given the magnitude of their rulings." None of the information about what these students were suspended for should have been reported by the media, and media organizations. This was a school disciplinary action, handed down because of the school's code of conduct violations. That is all that should have been released and reported on by the media, and no specifics as to why the suspension occured should have been broadcast to the media by anyone, not even the players themselves.

Look in the bright side; some of these young men will get a big fat check.


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That isn't what my point was at all.

So gopherdude, the university shouldn't have any rules that parallel criminal acts? Why not? I don't get that at all. They're not bypassing the police and court system, not even a little bit. There are simply two sets of rules that students live their lives under, not unlike the fact that I could be acquitted of assaulting a co-worker but fired from my job for the exact same conduct because I violated company policy on workplace violence.

I have never said that and never defended that point.
First my overarching point has always been the University should have suspended the players for violations of team rules indefinitely and that is what should have been announced to the media in the first place, not that they were facing any suspension from school or expulsion just that they have been suspended from the team indefinitely and they really did need to wait until that internal investigation was completed. Not fair, maybe but it is what could have protected confidentiality for all sides.
I say this violation of team rules thing, because I wanted confidentiality for all sides.
None of the players should have ever been reinstated from the first suspensions specifically the initial four. This way not all players would have been lumped together in the same column after this latest group of suspensions was released.
All players and University administration should have been under a no comment rule for anything that caused the suspensions from the football program. Playing for the University of Minnesota and being a scholarship athlete is not a right, it is a privilege and you sign on to those standards when agreeing to the scholarship as well as the school's conduct policy when you sign it. All students sign that and that conduct code should be enforced evenly. It also means that all measures of sealing conduct violations should be in place and all records should be sealed even the investigative finding of that committee. For me it was important that confidentiality should remain in place from all parties(this includes players). That was the intent of releasing these suspensions when it happened other to say they cannot comment beyond the announcement because of privacy reasons. To me the administration wanted to grandstand and make themselves out to be what they are not, pruveyors of all things righteous and to protect funding from the federal government due to Title IX policy. I personally disagree with this preponderance of the evidence and 51% stuff of the title IX investigation, and making press releases that can damage any and all students reputations without a fair hearing.

These suspensions from the title nine investigation should have been left at that, and not announced in a press release reporting on the cause of the suspensions, the reasons for these suspensions should not have been released by anyone. Commenting that they were the result of that Title IX investigation should have waited, because the appeals process had not taken place yet, no details should have been provided whatsoever by players or University of Minnesota administration. There would have been a lot less damage to the University and everyone else. Everyone would have been best served if that was the policy, suspended for violation of team rules and left it at that.
 





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