Qotd: Minus Scandal, was Clem a better coach for MN than Tubby?

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ruppertflywheel said:
My son went to several of Clems camps at St. Thomas. The kids were given shorts that said "Play Hard" on the seat. That epitomized Clem's team's. At least when you watched or went to the games his players would lay their guts out on the court. Clem also had a great ass't coach in Al Brown. I would take him over anybody Tubby currently has on his staff.
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I went to a bunch of those. They were pretty sweet.
 

Do you think he would still be here is he had never gotten caught?
 


gopherbadgerman said:
Do you think he would still be here is he had never gotten caught?
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Their were many teams/programs/coaches doing that same thing. Clem was caught and the NCAA made an example out of him. I wonder how many programs cleaned up their act do to the stiff price Clem and the Gophers paid.

If another team was caught first, the Gophers would have woke up and Clem would still be leading a very successful program.
 



This reminds me of the old joke: "Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

And aside from the whole cannibalism thing, Jeffrey Dahmer had great table manners.
 




howieramone said:
Take another look. I loved Clem, but Tubby's a better recruiter. Dutcher was head and shoulders above either.
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The top of Clem's classes were better but Tubby has done a better job of filling out the entire roster
 

brucekaupa said:
Don't forget that Clem also had his share of people transfer away or just plain stop playing for whatever reason. This is by no means a complete list:

- Kelvin Smith
- Marlon Maxey
- Junior Graves
- Erik Wilson
- Robert Roe
- Kevin Baker
- David Washington
- Micah Watkins
- Darrell Whaley
- Mark Jones
- Courtney James
- Charles Thomas
- Kevin Loge
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Valid point; the bottom of Clem's classes generally sucked (leaving out the 4 at the bottom of the list). Kelvin Smith was a Dutcher recruit (believe he, along with Kevin, was suspended for a handful of games in relation to Madison). We could have used Maxey, who was a banger in the middle. We ended up facing him at UTEP in an OT game in the first round of the NCAA one of the years.
 

sunnyday2 said:
Clem inherited a pretty good group. Sure, Burton was a green rookie but we had him for 4 years. Richard Coffey was a non-green rookie that year--a freshman but 22 years old after 3 years in the military. Newbern clearly had a big upside. Shik not so much but he played a role. Lynch came the next year so, no, not an inheritance.
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Clem's first team was horrible; I saw most of the home teams in person. The only player (outside of Burton) who would have seen minutes on another Big Ten team was Terence Woods as a 10-15 minute type of guy (believe he was our leading scorer that year). Newbern was a Prop 48 casualty and didn't play that year
 



Clem cheated. Period. Debate over, Tubby wins. No one knows how good Clem really was because he cheated
 

XMan said:
Clem cheated. Period. Debate over, Tubby wins. No one knows how good Clem really was because he cheated
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We can make inferences with his teams not accused of cheating. That was the intent of the OP. He made a sweet 16 and elite 8 without cheating. Yes, the end sucked and we paid dearly for it as a program. Tubby's success elsewhere also cannot be debated, but that's why I asked who was the better coach for MN. Personally, while I want the practice facility because it will help some, I'm not sure it will start top 50 recruits signing here the minute it is built.
 

Dr.Don said:
Due to after the fact with Clem's $hit, I will take Tubby anyday. Lose with the real life, Win with cheaters. I will take real life.
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Glad to see others with that viewpoint. I'd rather lose with good students, good citizens than win with a dirty program. Clem without the scandal is like considering the history of the Titanic without including the iceberg.
 

Clem's Gophers said:
Their were many teams/programs/coaches doing that same thing. Clem was caught and the NCAA made an example out of him. I wonder how many programs cleaned up their act do to the stiff price Clem and the Gophers paid.

If another team was caught first, the Gophers would have woke up and Clem would still be leading a very successful program.
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Clem was the best Gophers coach of all time, wish he was still here.
 

Sparlimb said:
We can make inferences with his teams not accused of cheating. That was the intent of the OP. He made a sweet 16 and elite 8 without cheating.
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Your right he had a lot of success prior to the scandal. He should have had those knuckleheads to do their own god damn homework and we would still be an elite program. The 90's and present would have been amazing for Gophers fans.

From Wikipedia:

Gangelhoff, the manager of the school's academic counseling office, that she had written more than 400 pieces of coursework (including theme papers, homework assignments and take-home tests) for 18 Golden Gophers players from 1994 to 1998

Clem Haskins was hired as the Gopher basketball coach in 1986, expected to clean up and rebuild the Gopher program which had been torn apart by the Madison sexual assault allegations (of which the players were later acquitted) during the final year of coach Jim Dutcher.[32] Though wins did not come easily in the first couple years of Haskins regime, by the 1988–89 season he had the Gophers in the NCAA tournament as a #11 seed, and directed a Cinderella run into the Sweet 16. In the 1989–90 season Haskins led the Gophers to the Elite Eight, and the team came within a basket of reaching their first ever Final Four. Though Haskins led the Gophers to post-season success in his first three seasons, the 1990 Elite Eight appearance would be the last time under Haskins the Gophers would "officially" appear in the NCAA tournament
 

I have always had mixed feelings about this subject. Clem certainly brought a lot of fame to the Gopher program in the 90's. Most loved him in Minnesota. My nephew went to several of his camps and thought both he and his wife were the greatest. A very good friend of mine was an assistant coach under him in the 80's through the mid 90's and had nothing but great things to say about Clem. I have listened to Walter Bond speak a couple of times and was able to talk with him about Clem. He still thinks very highly of him. I got to meet Clem before a game at Kansas State in 1990 or so down on the floor, spent 10 minutes talking to me. None of that changes the fact that he cheated and Gopher basketball has never been the same since. I don't care if other teams were doing the same thing, it didn't make it right. We have been paying the price ever since.
 

Thread Title: Minus Scandal, was Clem a better coach for MN than Tubby?


How can you address this as Minus Scandal. That's like saying, according to Doogie, that Iowa wins in the past do not count.
 

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