Qotd: Minus Scandal, was Clem a better coach for MN than Tubby?

Sparlimb

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I never thought I'd hear myself saying this, but Clem clearly had more success with his early teams than Tubby has had. I know most of us can't ignore the scandal and that alone will always make Clem one of the worst coaches we've had, but prior to those years he did still have a lot of success. He got us to a sweet sixteen and an elite eight. Believe it or not, but Clem inheirited a worse team than Tubby. I think most fans here are used to moderate success and I'm not sure we'll see positive daylight in the final Big Ten standings in the next few years. Anyway, opine away...
 

Due to after the fact with Clem's $hit, I will take Tubby anyday. Lose with the real life, Win with cheaters. I will take real life.
 

You can't separate his success from the scandal since a lot of the players likely would not have been eligible.
 

Once Russ Arschambeau (spelling) lost his scholarship, he reported what he had been using to remain eligible, and *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ed over the U. Class act, bull*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#.
 

Sparlimb said:
I never thought I'd hear myself saying this, but Clem clearly had more success with his early teams than Tubby has had. I know most of us can't ignore the scandal and that alone will always make Clem one of the worst coaches we've had, but prior to those years he did still have a lot of success. He got us to a sweet sixteen and an elite eight. Believe it or not, but Clem inheirited a worse team than Tubby. I think most fans here are used to moderate success and I'm not sure we'll see positive daylight in the final Big Ten standings in the next few years. Anyway, opine away...

Depends what you consider "early years" tubby was more successful in his first two years than Clem was.

Year 3 is kind of a wash.

Year 4 Clem finishes much better (elite 8).

Year 5 has a drop for Clem (as its looking for tubby as well)

Years 6 and 7 are NIT.

Then the cheating begins.
 


Depends what you consider "early years" tubby was more successful in his first two years than Clem was.

Year 3 is kind of a wash.

Year 4 Clem finishes much better (elite 8).

Year 5 has a drop for Clem (as its looking for tubby as well)


Years 6 and 7 are NIT.

Then the cheating begins.

Year 3 was a wash? A Sweet 16 appearance certainly beats a 1st round exit?
 

howeda7 said:
Year 3 was a wash? A Sweet 16 appearance certainly beats a 1st round exit?

My mistake, wiki shows year 3 as "2nd round" compared to "1st round" for tubby.

But you're right, MN did appear in the sweet 16 that year.
 

Setting the academic fraud aside, I have to say that Clem's teams were more entertaining, and seemed to play with more intensity then Tubby's teams. Clem seemed to have a knack for getting production out of average players - something we have yet to see from Tubby. Clem also, IMHO, did a better job of recruiting for the B1G style of play- with bangers in the middle and 3-point shooters on the perimiter.

Teams often take on the personality of their coach - Clem's teams were fiesty and pugnacious - Tubby's teams just don't seem to have the same fire - that sense of "I'm going to win this bleeping game if I have to run through a wall to do it."

Bottom line - in Clem's era, I sat down to watch a game thinking that the Gophs would find a way to win. Now, I sit down to watch a game thinking that the Gophs will find a way to lose. Sad, but true.
 

Actually I see some similarities to our current situation. Clem's first year was the worst I recall, but we knew Burton, Newburn, and Shikenjanski were all on campus. That was before the "One and Done Generation" and anonymous boards. The fanbase understood the difference between our beloved program and the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world. The fans were patient because we could see the good times were just around the corner. That was the nature of Gopher fans back then. 2013 we make the dance. 2014 and 2015 we make a deep run in the NCAA.
 



My son went to several of Clems camps at St. Thomas. The kids were given shorts that said "Play Hard" on the seat. That epitomized Clem's team's. At least when you watched or went to the games his players would lay their guts out on the court. Clem also had a great ass't coach in Al Brown. I would take him over anybody Tubby currently has on his staff.
 

Setting the academic fraud aside,


I can't.

I thought I loved Clem at the time and those were awesome times to be a Gopher fan. However, due to Clem, I guess those times and awesome players never existed.
 

Depends what you consider "early years" tubby was more successful in his first two years than Clem was.

Year 3 is kind of a wash.

Year 4 Clem finishes much better (elite 8).

Year 5 has a drop for Clem (as its looking for tubby as well)

Years 6 and 7 are NIT.

Then the cheating begins.

Clem inherited the worst lineup in the history of U of M buckets.

Holmgren's knees were shot
Hanson was slow but could shoot
K. Smith was a head case with potential
Burton was a green rookie
Newbern was prop 48
Schik couldn't play a lick
and so on.

He had no chance with that first group.

Tubby got a decent core in Tollackson, Coleman, Hoff, Nolen, Westbrook and Johnson
 

Clem inherited the worst lineup in the history of U of M buckets.

Holmgren's knees were shot
Hanson was slow but could shoot
K. Smith was a head case with potential
Burton was a green rookie
Newbern was prop 48
Schik couldn't play a lick
and so on.

He had no chance with that first group.

Tubby got a decent core in Tollackson, Coleman, Hoff, Nolen, Westbrook and Johnson

+1
 




And minus the bullet in the head, Lincoln enjoyed Ford's Theater immensely.

Clem inherited a pretty good group. Sure, Burton was a green rookie but we had him for 4 years. Richard Coffey was a non-green rookie that year--a freshman but 22 years old after 3 years in the military. Newbern clearly had a big upside. Shik not so much but he played a role. Lynch came the next year so, no, not an inheritance.

I agree that teams take on the personality of their coach. That team was colorful, they oozed personality. Coffey, Burton, Newbern. They were guys you could really love, you felt like you knew them personally.

Today the Gophers are more like a football or hockey team, it's as if they are wearing helmets in that you don't see any emotion on their faces, they don't reveal themselves and their personalities nearly as much as kids used to do. I don't feel like I know any of them personally.

Maybe it's just me.
 


Setting the academic fraud aside, I have to say that Clem's teams were more entertaining, and seemed to play with more intensity then Tubby's teams. Clem seemed to have a knack for getting production out of average players - something we have yet to see from Tubby. Clem also, IMHO, did a better job of recruiting for the B1G style of play- with bangers in the middle and 3-point shooters on the perimiter.

Teams often take on the personality of their coach - Clem's teams were fiesty and pugnacious - Tubby's teams just don't seem to have the same fire - that sense of "I'm going to win this bleeping game if I have to run through a wall to do it."

Bottom line - in Clem's era, I sat down to watch a game thinking that the Gophs would find a way to win. Now, I sit down to watch a game thinking that the Gophs will find a way to lose. Sad, but true.


In the Clem era I would go to games knowing the Gophers would win, no matter who we were playing or how talented we were. Now I go to the games expecting a loss.
 

My son went to several of Clems camps at St. Thomas. The kids were given shorts that said "Play Hard" on the seat. That epitomized Clem's team's. At least when you watched or went to the games his players would lay their guts out on the court. Clem also had a great ass't coach in Al Brown. I would take him over anybody Tubby currently has on his staff.

i still have my "Play Hard" shorts but changes in societal norms precludes me from wearing them anymore. or so my wife and kids tell me. Apparently too much thigh showing
 

I agree that teams take on the personality of their coach. That team was colorful, they oozed personality. Coffey, Burton, Newbern. They were guys you could really love, you felt like you knew them personally.

Today the Gophers are more like a football or hockey team, it's as if they are wearing helmets in that you don't see any emotion on their faces, they don't reveal themselves and their personalities nearly as much as kids used to do. I don't feel like I know any of them personally.

Maybe it's just me.

go to the HP Summer league- great way to get to know them a little better. I have found the last couple of years of kids very approachable and nice.
 

I still have my 'play hard' towel. I use it to wipe my dog's feet off when she comes in.

A fair and intriguing question. A few thoughts:

1. In retrospect, Clem was a remarkable coach and program leader. He really knew what he was doing. His bottom-line success speaks for itself, even though tainted/expunged by scandal.

2. That said, his teams were not the same team on the road. They played with so much less savvy, intelligence and confidence on the road. It was remarkable in a strange way. It was like they had kryptonite in their shorts. Then they came home and were Superman again.

3. He cared so much about the program and the community. He intended to come in here and make this a basketball town. Not just coach the program but build interest and support for hoops in the city and state. I would say that the improvement we've seen in local basketball in the last quarter century was sparked by the buzz he created in the program and the effect it had on the community. This doesn't get talked about much, partially because of the scandal, but I expect the history books to reflect this in due time. This is where Tubby pales in comparison. He just works here.

4. I consider the above bullet to have ultimately led to Clem's downfall. He felt he could win a national championship at Minnesota, and he was going to work toward accomplishing that if it were the last thing he did. He got his first taste when he almost landed Chris Webber. I heard him say once that, had Webber signed here, we could have won the national title. He said it with enough bitterness that I knew he was driven to eventually get over that hump. I might be speculating too much, but that's about the timing of when the major corner cutting and violations started to occur. They went from doing things right at Minnesota to doing things wrong at some point, and I think that was the point.

5. Someone said it, but I have to repeat it - he had some outstanding assistant coaches. The product dipped a bit when they lost Al Brown but then improved again when he hired Bill Brown for X's and O's. Larry Davis was an outstanding recruiter who could sell refrigerators to eskimos. I feel that, at the point when it all came crashing down, Clem and his staff were hitting new heights of coaching prowess.
 

Clem-coached Gophers who played in the NBA:
- Walter Bond
- Willie Burton
- Richard Coffey
- Bobby Jackson
- Sam Jacobson
- Voshon Lenard
- Quincy Lewis
- Kevin Lynch
- Bob Martin
- Marlon Maxey (that one was news to me..and yes, he did xfer out first)
- Melvin Newbern
- John Thomas
- Trevor Winter

Tubby-coached Gophers who played in the NBA:
 

Clem-coached Gophers who played in the NBA:
- Walter Bond
- Willie Burton
- Richard Coffey
- Bobby Jackson
- Sam Jacobson
- Voshon Lenard
- Quincy Lewis
- Kevin Lynch
- Bob Martin
- Marlon Maxey (that one was news to me..and yes, he did xfer out first)
- Melvin Newbern
- John Thomas
- Trevor Winter

Tubby-coached Gophers who played in the NBA:

Don't forget:

Mark Jones
Joel Pryzbilla
Kevin Burleson*

*redshirt season

Note: Clem recruited all of them except Burton and Newbern
 

Holy cripes! Mark Jones too?!?!? That calls for updating the list...

Clem-coached Gophers who played in the NBA:
- Walter Bond
- Kevin Burleson
- Willie Burton
- Richard Coffey
- Bobby Jackson
- Sam Jacobson
- Mark Jones
- Voshon Lenard
- Quincy Lewis
- Kevin Lynch
- Bob Martin
- Marlon Maxey (that one was news to me..and yes, he did xfer out first)
- Melvin Newbern
- Joel Pryzbilly
- * Miles Tarver
- John Thomas
- Trevor Winter

Tubby-coached Gophers who played in the NBA:
...


* - denotes players who did not play in the NBA, but knew someone in high school who won an NBA championship
 

bga1 said:
Clem inherited the worst lineup in the history of U of M buckets.

Holmgren's knees were shot
Hanson was slow but could shoot
K. Smith was a head case with potential
Burton was a green rookie
Newbern was prop 48
Schik couldn't play a lick
and so on.

He had no chance with that first group.

Tubby got a decent core in Tollackson, Coleman, Hoff, Nolen, Westbrook and Johnson

And McKenzie. Three sold senior starters.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I still have my 'play hard' towel. I use it to wipe my dog's feet off when she comes in.

A fair and intriguing question. A few thoughts:

1. In retrospect, Clem was a remarkable coach and program leader. He really knew what he was doing. His bottom-line success speaks for itself, even though tainted/expunged by scandal.

2. That said, his teams were not the same team on the road. They played with so much less savvy, intelligence and confidence on the road. It was remarkable in a strange way. It was like they had kryptonite in their shorts. Then they came home and were Superman again.

3. He cared so much about the program and the community. He intended to come in here and make this a basketball town. Not just coach the program but build interest and support for hoops in the city and state. I would say that the improvement we've seen in local basketball in the last quarter century was sparked by the buzz he created in the program and the effect it had on the community. This doesn't get talked about much, partially because of the scandal, but I expect the history books to reflect this in due time. This is where Tubby pales in comparison. He just works here.

4. I consider the above bullet to have ultimately led to Clem's downfall. He felt he could win a national championship at Minnesota, and he was going to work toward accomplishing that if it were the last thing he did. He got his first taste when he almost landed Chris Webber. I heard him say once that, had Webber signed here, we could have won the national title. He said it with enough bitterness that I knew he was driven to eventually get over that hump. I might be speculating too much, but that's about the timing of when the major corner cutting and violations started to occur. They went from doing things right at Minnesota to doing things wrong at some point, and I think that was the point.

5. Someone said it, but I have to repeat it - he had some outstanding assistant coaches. The product dipped a bit when they lost Al Brown but then improved again when he hired Bill Brown for X's and O's. Larry Davis was an outstanding recruiter who could sell refrigerators to eskimos. I feel that, at the point when it all came crashing down, Clem and his staff were hitting new heights of coaching prowess.

This is just a fantastic post.
 

Don't forget that Clem also had his share of people transfer away or just plain stop playing for whatever reason. This is by no means a complete list:

- Kelvin Smith
- Marlon Maxey
- Junior Graves
- Erik Wilson
- Robert Roe
- Kevin Baker
- David Washington
- Micah Watkins
- Darrell Whaley
- Mark Jones
- Courtney James
- Charles Thomas
- Kevin Loge
 

3. He cared so much about the program and the community. He intended to come in here and make this a basketball town. Not just coach the program but build interest and support for hoops in the city and state. I would say that the improvement we've seen in local basketball in the last quarter century was sparked by the buzz he created in the program and the effect it had on the community. This doesn't get talked about much, partially because of the scandal, but I expect the history books to reflect this in due time. This is where Tubby pales in comparison. He just works here.

I love #3. What I loved most about Clem was his passion for the team, but mostly his players. Really seemed like a father figure to them. Ever since, been wondering if that did him in. I don't think he would have ever intended to hurt "his" kids, but ultimately, he did.

The Clem years are tough for me because I liked him so much, but was so let down.
 

When Clem was around, I used to go with my dad to the monthly Backcourt Club meetings at Jax Cafe. Those were great times. Clem was usually there (sometimes Milt came in his place) and would talk for a while and give updates on things like Walton's knees.

I could tell it was a chore for him to do those meetings, but the fact that he did them was great. The last meeting of Kolander, et al's, senior year, he actually handed out resumes for each of the seniors. To me, that said a lot.

Monson put the k-bosh on that club.
 

Ulmer I agree with Sunnyday all of those guys were a treat to watch and you did feel like you knew them but I have to wonder with the advent of websites that can drag a kids dick in the dirt for sloppy play,and lack of hustle within minutes of the games end, would they have been so open?
 





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