Pulley Day 3

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Can someone post their observations? I wasn't there and would appreciate it.
 

It was my first night there and only watched the first game. Nothing groundbreaking to report, but I liked the way Hollins was playing. Consistently picked the other team's guard up fullcourt on defense and didn't seem to take any plays off. I'd be surprised if Welch starts at point guard unless he's a monster on defense. I think Tubby and fans will like the way Hollins plays. Pushes the tempo offensively, can hit shots and find open teammates. Will have to focus on taking care of the ball, but I'm very excited about him. Coleman was playing his normal aggressive style of play and took it to the rim a lot. He will get to the free throw line a lot for the Gophers and he usually does a good job of hitting free throws, so that's a good combo. Hit at least one three pointer, but missed a handful of others. Not a phenomenal three point shooter obviously, but if he's set and has time he's fairly reliable. I bet he'll be a good three point shooter before it's all said and done. His form is more than adequate IMO. Oto hit some shots which is to be expected at this point. Hard for me to get a read on how he will translate to the Big Ten though since this is just Pulley League, but I'm intrigued. Not expecting him to be a go to guy, but I could see him knocking down some shots occasionally off the bench this year. Looking forward to see him more so I can get a better feel for him.
 

Thanks GOTR. I think you're right on Hollins, from what I've seen. He'll make freshman mistakes, but he's got all the tools.
 

The thing with Coleman is pretty much finding consistent balance on his shot. I think someone has mentioned this before, but his base is all over the place and isn't consistent jumper to jumper. If he can get that straight, he'll become more reliable I think.
 

Saw only part of the 2nd game and left at halftime. Only Gopher playing was Coleman (must have been loaned out to El Amin's team for the night. I missed the Salvation Army gym a lot. The court is crammed in between small bleachers on both sides - feels like going to where kids play tournaments in 8th grade, etc... As for Coleman, he reminds alot like his brother Dan. An athlete's build and speedy, etc.. but he couldn't make even a short jump shot. Gophers must have some shooters to contend next year!
 


book said:
I missed the Salvation Army gym a lot. The court is crammed in between small bleachers on both sides - feels like going to where kids play tournaments in 8th grade, etc...
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+1, I am not a fan of the new venue.

Only observation I will make (others have made it as well) Austin Hollins ball handling was outstanding. I couldn't believe the full speed, switching directions and cross-overs this kid displayed last night. Hit some nice threes, went hard to the hoop and finished with contact against a very strong/athletic Brandon Smith. He has got to be close to 6'-6" and adding a little muscle. He is on a terrible team and was forced to take over, maybe that's a good thing for his development. Troy Bell couldn't have played worse.
 

coleman

I'm excited to get down there and watch a few game... bummer about the venue change though. I often read about people's concerns about the Gophers shooting after watching Coleman play. I know he was not recruited to be a shooter which is fine and by the looks of it we have many more options this year in terms of guys that can shoot (Oto, Andre, J.Welch). I have a feeling that this years team will be just fine in terms of shooting.. pehaps not top of the Big Ten, but middle of the pack. Middle of the pack could be good enough when you factor our above average front court.

Hope springs eternal and I am looking forward to the upcoming season!
 

NurumbiCongo said:
+1, I am not a fan of the new venue.

Only observation I will make (others have made it as well) Austin Hollins ball handling was outstanding. I couldn't believe the full speed, switching directions and cross-overs this kid displayed last night. Hit some nice threes, went hard to the hoop and finished with contact against a very strong/athletic Brandon Smith. He has got to be close to 6'-6" and adding a little muscle. He is on a terrible team and was forced to take over, maybe that's a good thing for his development. Troy Bell couldn't have played worse.
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I was really impressed with Austin last night. He looks much more confident and his motor has improved! The second game i was really excited for. It was pretty hard to watch the same mistakes over and over again, i felt like i was at the Barn again. Rodney's jump shot looked awful, Mav has no ability to get to the rim and finish, and Chip looked disinterested. Rodney had a bunch of dunks pretty impressive. It was really hard to watch the Wofford guys playing way harder and much more effective than the Gophers. Cameron and Jamar played really aggressive and had a lot of passion. Chip barely played in the second half. Getting benched in a summer league game not a good sign.
 

Mick_Ryan said:
It was really hard to watch the Wofford guys playing way harder and much more effective than the Gophers. Cameron and Jamar played really aggressive and had a lot of passion.
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If you have not attended Mick is right. I'd say 90%+ of the players go hard on both ends of the floor the entire game.

Mick_Ryan said:
Rodney's jump shot looked awful
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I don't see any improvement. People keep saying once he gets a jump shot he's on his way. It's not that easy.
 



NurumbiCongo said:
If you have not attended Mick is right. I'd say 90%+ of the players go hard on both ends of the floor the entire game.

I don't see any improvement. People keep saying once he gets a jump shot he's on his way. It's not that easy.
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Rodney and young Coleman have been practicing shooting since they were 3 and it's unlikely they will ever get better. If your eyes/brain don't measure distance right or your body doesn't respond with the right arm motion/strength shooting is real tough to improve on. These guys have been too numerous camps and have had coaches go over shooting with them many times and it hasn't helped. Because they are gifted athlete's doesn't mean they are gifted basketball players.
 

You can use that logic for anything. They've been practicing more than just shooting since they first started playing basketball. Does that mean that they won't get better at anything? Do players not improve between high school and the end of their NBA careers? I guess every player just stays the same. Every player in the NBA must have had the exact same skill set since they were 15. :rolleyes:
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
You can use that logic for anything. They've been practicing more than just shooting since they first started playing basketball. Does that mean that they won't get better at anything? Do players not improve between high school and the end of their NBA careers? I guess every player just stays the same. Every player in the NBA must have had the exact same skill set since they were 15. :rolleyes:
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Even though you're trying to act cute you are actually right. Players rarely improve their shooting past high school. Some do but not many.:rolleyes:
 

Mother Vandelay said:
Even though you're trying to act cute you are actually right. Players rarely improve their shooting past high school. Some do but not many.:rolleyes:
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Time for my best Friend of Tubby impression.

Kevin Love: Rookie year made 2 3s and shot 10%. Second year made 35 while shooting 33%. Last year he made 85 and shot 42%

Michael Beasley: Made 61 3s in his first two seasons combined shooting 33%. Last year he made 60 and shot 37%.

Derrick Rose: Made 16 3's in each of his first 2 seasons. Last year he made 128. That's 8 times as many as the previous year and he shot a higher percentage too.

Richard Jefferson: shot 34.8% from 3 from 2001-2010 and made an average of 40 per season. Last season he shot 44% and made 135.

Dorell Wright: Made 73 total 3s from 2004-2010. Last season alone he made 194.

Jodie Meeks: Made a combined 42 3's in his first two seasons. Made 138 last year and did so while shooting a higher percentage than either of his first 2 years.

Austin Daye: Rookie year made 29 3s on 30% shooting. Last year made 69 while shooting 40%.

Shawne Williams: First three years averaged 31 3s on 33% shooting. Last year made 85 on 40% shooting.

In college two players that immediately come to mind are Jordan Taylor and Matt Howard. Jordan Taylor went from making 5 3s on 19% shooting, to 35 on 33%, to 75 on 43% shooting. Matt Howard made a grand total of 5 three pointers in his first three seasons. He made 53 last season and shot about 40%.

These are just players off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more. You severely underestimate how often players improve their shooting.
 



GophersOnTheRise said:
Time for my best Friend of Tubby impression.

Kevin Love: Rookie year made 2 3s and shot 10%. Second year made 35 while shooting 33%. Last year he made 85 and shot 42%

Michael Beasley: Made 61 3s in his first two seasons combined shooting 33%. Last year he made 60 and shot 37%.

Derrick Rose: Made 16 3's in each of his first 2 seasons. Last year he made 128. That's 8 times as many as the previous year and he shot a higher percentage too.

Richard Jefferson: shot 34.8% from 3 from 2001-2010 and made an average of 40 per season. Last season he shot 44% and made 135.

Dorell Wright: Made 73 total 3s from 2004-2010. Last season alone he made 194.

Jodie Meeks: Made a combined 42 3's in his first two seasons. Made 138 last year and did so while shooting a higher percentage than either of his first 2 years.

Austin Daye: Rookie year made 29 3s on 30% shooting. Last year made 69 while shooting 40%.

Shawne Williams: First three years averaged 31 3s on 33% shooting. Last year made 85 on 40% shooting.

In college two players that immediately come to mind are Jordan Taylor and Matt Howard. Jordan Taylor went from making 5 3s on 19% shooting, to 35 on 33%, to 75 on 43% shooting. Matt Howard made a grand total of 5 three pointers in his first three seasons. He made 53 last season and shot about 40%.

These are just players off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more. You severely underestimate how often players improve their shooting.
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Fact: Tubby Smith is a great coach. Fact: Tubby Smith is an excellent freethrow shooter. Fact: Our teams have sucked at shooting with the exception of those that were already excellent shooters. Fact: Shooters are recruited and rarely are coached up in the art of shooting.
 

Mother Vandelay said:
Fact: Tubby Smith is a great coach. Fact: Tubby Smith is an excellent freethrow shooter. Fact: Our teams have sucked at shooting with the exception of those that were already excellent shooters. Fact: Shooters are recruited and rarely are coached up in the art of shooting.
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In exception to the players I mentioned and probably a long list of others.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
In exception to the players I mentioned and probably a long list of others.
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You make the stats fit your arguement. I only got as far as Kevin Love and quit reading. Love was an excellent shooter all his life, Of course his and almost everbody else's first year in the Pro's will be their worst as shooters, trying to get used to playing against men but then after a year or two they're back to where they were as shooters. If shooting can be easily taught why can't Tubby and coaches do it? I think shooters are recruited. What do you think and who's fault is it our guys are poor shooters and have shown little improvement during college.
 

I agree with you for the most part, I just thought it was premature to say Coleman and Rodney are unlikely to ever get better at shooting. To me that's a stupid and baseless comment. When it comes to improving your shot I think it has a lot more to do with the player than the coach. Coaching can help to an extent depending on the situation, but for the most part it's all about how much time you're willing to put in. Shooting ability has a lot to do with natural ability obviously, but if you put in enough work you'll see results.
 

It has been said many times if Rodney could shoot he would be a lottery pick and if he can't he better be studing. I can't believe he would leave 2,3,4, million dollars slip away within the next 12 months because he is to lazy to practice shooting. I believe he just doesn't have the ability to improve. Maybe he can if nerves were a problem(read possibility of Tubby screaming) and the 2 years of expirence might make that easier in the confidence department. Hope so. By the way your FOT imitation was excellent and I mean that in a good way.
 

To be fair, Randy Wittman would not let Love shoot the three ball the entire time he was here. Hire Rambis, and Love is knocking jumpers out all around the court.

P.S. I am drunk and way past my nighty night time.
 

I have always been one of those who have said they didn't like Rodney's jump shot, ever since watching him in High School. But to be fair, he has improved since then. He may never be a great shooter but, he has gotten better.
 



Mother Vandelay said:
I read his mind.
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There are plenty of examples of players in the NBA who have become very competent shooters later in their careers when they were not thought of as good shooters before. The fact that there are a lot of exceptions to your statement kind of destroys your argument.

Not everyone improves their shooting (clearly), but some do.
 

centerofmn said:
There are plenty of examples of players in the NBA who have become very competent shooters later in their careers when they were not thought of as good shooters before. The fact that there are a lot of exceptions to your statement kind of destroys your argument.

Not everyone improves their shooting (clearly), but some do.
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There are several Gopher players who became dramatically better shooters in their career here- Arob, Eric Harris and Willie Burton are three that come to mind. It takes a ton of work but it can be done.
 

I think there are many examples of players that become better shooters once they get to the NBA. I think because he played inside in high school, it slowed his jump shot development. It looks like a good form to me though. He is an extremely gifted athlete and he could get drafted on that alone, he knows, everyone in the big 10 knows it.

I think he needs to be more agressive/assertive off the dribble. He needs to be a little more confident. It seems he doesn't know what's going on out there sometimes which is a result of being the man in high school, the focus of the offense and transitioning to fit a role in college. He won't be the man at the next level either, though you never know, so he needs to find a niche or 2 on both ends of the floor.
 

So the question you should all be asking then is why can't Tubby recruit players that care enough to practice shooting to help the team or in Rodneys case to make 3 million dollars next year. Their is a reason we have been such a poor shooting team and most seem to thinks it's because of lazy players. I am not one of them.
 

Mick_Ryan said:
Rodney's jump shot looked awful, Mav has no ability to get to the rim and finish, and Chip looked disinterested.
It was really hard to watch the Wofford guys playing way harder and much more effective than the Gophers. Cameron and Jamar played really aggressive and had a lot of passion. Chip barely played in the second half. Getting benched in a summer league game not a good sign.
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When I first read this I didn't think Chip really got benched... Talked to a friend that was there that night and he said the same thing. I hope he takes it seriously, playing against competition such as Euro-pros and Wofford guys is a good opportunity to work on your game.
 

katze019 said:
When I first read this I didn't think Chip really got benched... Talked to a friend that was there that night and he said the same thing. I hope he takes it seriously, playing against competition such as Euro-pros and Wofford guys is a good opportunity to work on your game.
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I believe he was benched. He never once took the ball to the paint shot about four 3's in the first half didn't make any. He was guarding Jefferson Mason from Mankato, he was posting up effectively against Chip, scoring quite easily. I'm a huge Chip support and fan. He looked so bored even in warm ups and when the game started nothing changed he had no desire to be on the court... Does he always act so nonchalant? Anyone going to watch this week? Is Khalid El-Amin playing for his team?
 

Anybody that says Rodney hasn't improved as a shooter since high school never saw Rodney play in high school. His shot actually looks about 100% better than it did in high school. Bad shooters can become medicre shooters. Mediocre shooters can become good shooters. Good shooters can become great shooters. Bad shooters will never, ever become great shooters from high school to college to the pros. Nolen was a horrible shooter who because slightly below mediocre. He looked to me like he worked his ass off at shooting better. It's just not natural for some.

Rodney's problem isn't shooting. It's the fact that he never uses his athletic ability to blow past people and take it to the rim. (Although I did see signs that he started to do it later in the year.) Or use his size and ability to rebound more.

Players should work a helluva lot less on their weaknesses until their strengths are so damn good that they can move onto the weaknesses. People need to stop talking about Rodney's shooting and get him to practice his first step explosiveness and finishing at the rim...then free throws.

He can practice shooting when it's his third year in the NBA. Otherwise, he's never going to get the chance.
 

ColNathanJessup said:
Bad shooters can become medicre shooters. Mediocre shooters can become good shooters. Good shooters can become great shooters. Bad shooters will never, ever become great shooters
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I think that's accurate. It's also true that some bad/mediocre shooters will remain that way from playing HS varsity through their college days.

Some guys just can't soot and never will be able to, even with the best shooting coaches trying to fix their stroke. Kevin Payton was one of those guys.
 

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