Prove me wrong GopherHolers

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Spoofin

Spoofin

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Unfortunately, with the way Gopher fans read into a single game as if it was 10 data points, I see only 2 possible scenarios this weekend. I hope I'm wrong....

1. We play poorly. This is blamed on Kill not being there, coaching staff being over their heads, etc. Result: Folks wanting Kill out.

2. We play well. This leads folks to believe Claeys is a better coach than Kill, the team plays to his 'style' better, etc. Result: Folks want Kill to step down.

IMO, the sentiment about Kill has changed dramatically based on the Iowa game. It was an ugly game - poorly played and poorly coached, but it was just one game. At the risk of starting another Mason thread, I choose to look at that as an off day and in that light find it hard to deny the progress this team is making under Kill. I am hoping some Gopher Fans can let the season and Kill situation play out instead of turning GH into a blood bath about Jer on Saturday.
 

I don't really know that the overall feeling on Kill hinges on this game at all. I think given the current situation his future in the short term is 100% contingent on his health. When he comes back from this treatment the game day seizures need to be a thing of the past or my feeling is he will get a ton of pressure from the administration to step down for health reasons. I also think that if he comes back and the seizures continue to happen for him that he will choose to walk away at that point, as hard as that will be for him.

If he is able to come back healthy then he will be judged by the people that matter on next season, not this one. But expectations for conference wins will be higher than they have been to this point.

The honeymoon period for Kill and his staff is coming to an end and in some cases the missed time due to the seizures may have hastened that end for some people but I still don't think a lot is riding on this game as to the overall impression of Kill and his future. The Iowa game was bad because the team was not competitive. The Michigan game didn't really help because even though the team hung around for the first half in the end the score was lopsided and it is pretty clear this is not your typical great Michigan team from years past. What I think most fans need to see over the remainder of this season is a team that looks like it can compete with Big Ten competition and be in games late even if some of those don't end up in the W column.
 

Blood bath? Fans want a coach that is on the field. Nothing wrong with that. The longer Coach Kill stays away dissolves the brick by brick theory. Losing also compounds things. The reality of the situation is the the buck stops will Kill, not his ass't coaches. We beat Northwestern and Kill is back on the field against Nebraska....win, win. We lose to Northwestern and Kill remains out for Nebraska that is three weeks away from " his " team. " Houston, we got a problem "
 

A big thing about my perception regarding Kill's condition has been that I am not going to evaluate him based on it. I am not going to criticize him for issues related to his condition, I am going to evaluate him based on the on field results. But he also doesn't get a pass on anything because of his condition (with the planning/recruiting/training he has done so far, Kill deserves the credit/blame for what happens tomorrow). I recognize that this staff has taken steps to ensure that they know what to do (sort of reminds me of Leo in the West Wing TV show with Martin Sheen's MS).

OP was right, Iowa was a poorly played and poorly coached game. Michigan was better, but still not close to good. If we look as bad against Northwestern as we did in our first two conference games, I will be upset, but I would be upset if we looked that bad and Kill was on the sidelines. If we win this game, Kill will have me right back in his corner. I'm not saying that I am totally out of his corner right now, I don't think we should be considering firing him or anything like that, I just am pretty disappointed with his performance in the last two games. And yes, as the head coach, the buck stops with Kill, so I have no problem with referring to the game results as his performance, whether or not he is physically present at the game.
 

I'll be straight forward: I have been spending a lot less time on Gopherhole these last three weeks because of all the mouth breathing and doom/gloom. My thoughts of the upcoming game are more basic: If the team wins, enjoy it for a week. If the team loses, take a continued and more dedicated vacation from Gopher Hole and look forward to the next game and its corresponding tailgate.
 


Schnauzer said:
I'll be straight forward: I have been spending a lot less time on Gopherhole these last three weeks because of all the mouth breathing and doom/gloom. My thoughts of the upcoming game are more basic: If the team wins, enjoy it for a week. If the team loses, take a continued and more dedicated vacation from Gopher Hole and look forward to the next game and its corresponding tailgate.
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My thoughts exactly. Well put, and I applaud you for your discipline.

The funny thing is, if the Gophers beat Northwestern, I can't wait to hear how "bad" NU is or that it was because of NU injuries, like nobody else in the B1G has injuries.
 

Rup, are you more disappointed in the team play on the field or the fan reactions?
 

Fans should let this season play out before making any judgments. Only 2 games into the conference schedule no one knows much right now. The Iowa game might not have been an "off day". I am hopeful we will see improved play throughout the year. The press and other holers can say what they want, but I am confident the administration has the right perspective and will make an informed decision.
 

The uninformed in the fan base raised their expectations based on the bowl game and 4-0 start. This was never going to be a 9 win team as much as we could dream.
This was a 5 to 7 win team regardless of how much the team improved.

Exhibit A: We blew out everyone in NC, it wasn't close, but we didn't do it in the first half. We didn't do it with the passing game. Not good enough for these fans.

Exhibit B: We dropped one winnable but not guaranteed game against Iowa, now the coach is over his head, needs to fire assistants, needs to change his style.

Exhibit C: We lose at Michigan with a freshman at QB in his first B1G start, now we need to remove the coach.

The seizure situation with Kill must be fixed.
However, if we are undefeated right now NOBODY would say bleep about Kill taking time to get better. It would be inspirational and a guaranteed top story around town like Chuck Pagano with his cancer treatment and the colts.

If Kill cannot return and stay healthy, we are sunk. Seriously sunk.
Anyone who says we can't get worse, or it wouldn't matter is either a troll causing trouble, or seriously ignorant.
Coaching turnover is incredibly volatile for programs. It's not like the NFL, which unfortunately is all that Minnesota fans/media recognize. There is no draft, there is no free agency, the playing style/playbooks can be incredibly different unlike the NFL. Turnover means losing loyal players and recruits, and potentially changing styles that fit good players into roles they cannot flourish in.

Anyone lobbying for Kill to be removed after this game is out of their mind regardless of the outcome.
 



Ole said:
Exhibit B: We dropped one winnable but not guaranteed game against Iowa, now the coach is over his head, needs to fire assistants, needs to change his style.

Exhibit C: We lose at Michigan with a freshman at QB in his first B1G start, now we need to remove the coach.

Anyone lobbying for Kill to be removed after this game is out of their mind regardless of the outcome.
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What am I missing? I don't see people calling for Kill to be fired right now, and I don't see people saying we have to win this game or Kill should be gone. I also have not seen an outcry from the media to get rid of Kill now, if it is out there I must just be looking in the wrong places.

There are plenty of fans that are nervous about the future of the program under Kill but I don't see people flying off the handle like your post would indicate. Maybe you are talking about the comment section in the strib or something like that, I certainly don't see that sentiment in here even among those of us that are least sold on Kill long term at this point.
 

I, too, have stayed away a lot more because of the tone this board has taken. It's awful.

And MNVCGUY, this board has (IMO) been coated with the "get rid of Kill" talk, both overtly and by implication. It's sad, but it is a direct result of the "videogame" era we live in.

"I want it the way I want it and I want it now."

There is no "dynasty mode" in real life that allows us to crunch 10 years into a weekend of NCAA 2013 on PlayStation. A reboot in real life costs us another three to five years.

I'll say what I've said over and over: this programs' doom was set in motion in the late 60's and early 70's by an administration that wanted to destroy it. We wasted 26 years in the Metrodome. Buffoonery at every level of the AD. It might take a dozen years for Minnesota to become a NORMAL FUCTIONING D1 football program. That's how fouled up we were. At the very bottom.

We point at the Grambling program and snicker. Guess what--we were just there.

It takes time, patience, and grown ups.
 

highwayman said:
I, too, have stayed away a lot more because of the tone this board has taken. It's awful.

And MNVCGUY, this board has (IMO) been coated with the "get rid of Kill" talk, both overtly and by implication. It's sad, but it is a direct result of the "videogame" era we live in.

"I want it the way I want it and I want it now."

There is no "dynasty mode" in real life that allows us to crunch 10 years into a weekend of NCAA 2013 on PlayStation. A reboot in real life costs us another three to five years.

I'll say what I've said over and over: this programs' doom was set in motion in the late 60's and early 70's by an administration that wanted to destroy it. We wasted 26 years in the Metrodome. Buffoonery at every level of the AD. It might take a dozen years for Minnesota to become a NORMAL FUCTIONING D1 football program. That's how fouled up we were. At the very bottom.

We point at the Grambling program and snicker. Guess what--we were just there.

It takes time, patience, and grown ups.
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Totally agree on the overall tone of this board getting nasty in general. More so than in recent years there are a segment of posters in here that have no tolerance for opinions that don't fall right in line with their own.

But I am still not seeing the call for a change right now. If we finish 0-8 in the conference I think there will be a very vocal portion of the fan base and media wanting a new head coach but from what I have seen most feel you have to give Kill at least 4 years to either sink or swim.

The 60's and 70's were before my time so will have to take your word on the last part about what the administration may or may not have done to the program.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Totally agree on the overall tone of this board getting nasty in general. More so than in recent years there are a segment of posters in here that have no tolerance for opinions that don't fall right in line with their own.

But I am still not seeing the call for a change right now. If we finish 0-8 in the conference I think there will be a very vocal portion of the fan base and media wanting a new head coach but from what I have seen most feel you have to give Kill at least 4 years to either sink or swim.

The 60's and 70's were before my time so will have to take your word on the last part about what the administration may or may not have done to the program.
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Several posters have floated ridiculous plans that include Glen Mason taking over, so have various media mouthholes.
 



I keep coming back to the hole for wren's always new and innovative ideas.
 

Ole said:
Several posters have floated ridiculous plans that include Glen Mason taking over, so have various media mouthholes.
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I thought the bringing back Mason thing was more a plan for if Kill had to step down due to health reasons, not a let's fire Kill and rehire Mason. I know Dubay's and Souhan's of the world have been banging this drum more but it seems like that is far more as a way to get people riled up than as an actual solution.
 

MNVCGUY said:
What am I missing? I don't see people calling for Kill to be fired right now, and I don't see people saying we have to win this game or Kill should be gone. I also have not seen an outcry from the media to get rid of Kill now, if it is out there I must just be looking in the wrong places.
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You must be looking in the wrong places. Try Gopherhole, you'll find what you have been missing.
 

Spoofin said:
You must be looking in the wrong places. Try Gopherhole, you'll find what you have been missing.
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Lots of discontent and nervousness about the state of the program but very few outright calls for the coach to be fired.
 

I hate to put it in these terms, but the a good % of the hole has turned in to a group of community organizers rather than a business person that knows what it takes to build a solid program. Coach Kill knows what he is doing, not being on the sideline hurts, but he is still captain of the ship. Needs thru the 2015 season.
 

Thanks Ole, Highwayman, and Ogee, for your comments, and Spoofin for starting this thread. I, too, have mostly stayed away because the negative energy that beats me down. There are some awful negative posters on here and I seem to get sucked in. I've said that one of the biggest hurdles to overcome in turning around a program is the culture of negativity and apathy. I know Kill and his staff can recruit, coach, and win, and have a proven formula to overcome the challenges of turning Minnesota into a contender. This darn seizure thing has added another challenge (so what?), and it's tricky nature has left the solution in the hands of people I don't know.

I come here to get info. and links to follow the program. As a fan, I guess I generally pull for the underdog, which makes winning so much sweeter than it would be to be an Alabama or New York Yankee fan.

So, thanks again to the positive posters. Much appreciated. I can hardly wait for the game tomorrow!
 


Clark W. Griswold said:
Fans should let this season play out before making any judgments. Only 2 games into the conference schedule no one knows much right now. The Iowa game might not have been an "off day". I am hopeful we will see improved play throughout the year. The press and other holers can say what they want, but I am confident the administration has the right perspective and will make an informed decision.
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An informed decision about what? What are the available options? Posters here seem to think that we merely need to spend money on a Big Name Coach and all will be resolved. Big Name Coaches already are paid big money and are big name because they coach at successful football schools where they are appreciated. Folks here can only think of the favorable characteristics of our market. Seems that coaches elsewhere have seen some unfavorable characteristics that we're not admitting as evidenced by the difficulty we've had hiring BNCs over the years. The one we hired scooted quickly. The almost-BNC longed for the post over on the other end of the conference. It's not the weather -- our weather is no worse than it was when we won seven national titles. It's not the stadium -- we've been unsuccessful in three stadiums in thirty years. It's not the coaches -- we've tried lots of them since the 60s without success. No, there's something about our market that top coaches (and top recruits) find disagreeable. We need to find what it is, admit to it, change it if possible, or develop a way to recruit despite it, to be successful. The administration can't make an informed decision without recognizing the reality. Meanwhile, we have a coaching staff that has succeeded elsewhere and has stabilized the leadership of our football program. I wish they could develop UM football into a competitive program. But as Pete Maravich said "You don't get here by just wishing."
 

I've also been off the board of late (insanely busy at work......). I can see both sides of the argument.

I like Kill on a personal level, and I would be thrilled to see him succeed at the U. But, at the same time, I try to be realistic about the team I see on the field. The Gophs are 0-2 in the B1G, and will be underdogs in every remaining game this season. I hope (and think) they will win at least 1 conf game, but I think it's very iffy whether the team can find that 2nd win and qualify for a bowl game.

Health issues aside, my biggest question is whether Kill's system and Kill's recruiting will be able to get the job done at a major conference level. As a baseball fan, I've seen lots of players tear up Triple-A, but not make it in the majors. It's similar with coaches - success at a lower level is no guarantee of success at a higher level, because the challenges are much greater - especially at a school like MN.

Having said that, I don't think there's some "miracle man" lurking out there who could come in and turn the U into an instant B1G contender. building a program takes time. The problem is this: If, after 4 or 5 years, the powers that be decide that Kill is not going to get the job done, then they have to bring in a new staff, a new system, and the rebuilding clock starts all over again.
 

Most fans simply don't spend enough time reading into how the college football world works to make educated judgements on how things are going.
The media in this town is likely even lazier. Even worse, they spread ignorance and throw bombs at random to stir things up for casual fans.
How often have you heard someone randomly rip the Gophers, then say that they haven't watched a game this year? It's very common.

Kill doesn't get a pass for having epilepsy, it's another obstacle for him to overcome, and if he doesn't improve the on field performance nothing will keep the U from finding a new coach.

The problem is that there is simply no patience for some people, or they see "turnarounds" everywhere else in passing and think it's done overnight here.
Kill and his staff absolutely know what they're doing. They need time and for Kill to get well.
Give them those two things and we'll start to climb out of the hell the U admin dug us into starting in the 70's, through the metrodome, into the dumpster fire that was Joel Maturi, to now.
 

I agree with a lot of what has been written, especially the posts from Schnauzer and highwayman. There's not a lot to be said, but people keep saying it.

We're in a difficult situation with no easy solution. I like Kill and I think if he regains his health, he has a shot at doing something here. On the other hand, I see a less-serious Terry Hoeppner situation developing.

I went into the year with modest expectations. I think a prediction of heading to a bowl were premature and entirely contingent on the team playing well. We don't have a stable full of athletes yet and we're still relatively inexperienced. We haven't played particularly well even when we mopped up in the non-conference schedule and if the Michigan game proved anything, it proved we still need bigger, stronger, faster kids.

So I guess I'm not as crestfallen or despondent as many here. This program has been beset by a bunch of bad decisions going back to the bright idea of moving off campus and it's not going to turn around without clear and committed leadership from the top down. Once all the ducks get lined up, I'll ramp up my expectations.
 

I think we are seeing a lot of hyperbole in both directions. The fact that somebody thinks that we should be able to perform better than 165 yards against Iowa and play better than we did against Michigan does not mean that we were expecting a nine win season, nor does it mean that we want the coach to be fired. I don't think of myself as having particularly unreasonable expectations, but our two B1G performances so far have been downright bad. Let's turn that around tomorrow.
 

Clark W. Griswold said:
Fans should let this season play out before making any judgments. Only 2 games into the conference schedule no one knows much right now. The Iowa game might not have been an "off day". I am hopeful we will see improved play throughout the year. The press and other holers can say what they want, but I am confident the administration has the right perspective and will make an informed decision.
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I love this post. Posters after the Iowa game blabbering about 0-8 in the conference, etc. is ridiculous...these are college kids. Did anyone see 2 BT wins in 2010? 2011? Any given Saturday, folks

Go Gophers!
 

FanSinceTheFifties said:
An informed decision about what? What are the available options? Posters here seem to think that we merely need to spend money on a Big Name Coach and all will be resolved. Big Name Coaches already are paid big money and are big name because they coach at successful football schools where they are appreciated. Folks here can only think of the favorable characteristics of our market. Seems that coaches elsewhere have seen some unfavorable characteristics that we're not admitting as evidenced by the difficulty we've had hiring BNCs over the years. The one we hired scooted quickly. The almost-BNC longed for the post over on the other end of the conference. It's not the weather -- our weather is no worse than it was when we won seven national titles. It's not the stadium -- we've been unsuccessful in three stadiums in thirty years. It's not the coaches -- we've tried lots of them since the 60s without success. No, there's something about our market that top coaches (and top recruits) find disagreeable. We need to find what it is, admit to it, change it if possible, or develop a way to recruit despite it, to be successful. The administration can't make an informed decision without recognizing the reality. Meanwhile, we have a coaching staff that has succeeded elsewhere and has stabilized the leadership of our football program. I wish they could develop UM football into a competitive program. But as Pete Maravich said "You don't get here by just wishing."
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I am a Kill supporter and think he will do a good job, but I am not watching this team thinking things are great. We have seen improvement - lack of penalties and handling lesser opponents, but has anyone seen anything to date that says we are in a good position? Each week I watch hoping to see the team compete especially against conference opponents. Iowa was a train wreck, Michigan was better but there is a long way to go. I was not implying that a decision should be made after this year, Kill's health depending, a coach needs time to develop a program. My point is everyone should be in a wait and see mode; let the season finish out. We do live in a world of instant judgement so those calling for a change doesn't surprise me. The negative tones don't surprise me either since the results of the last two games were very negative.
 

I agree with you, it's either Praise Claeys or Fire kill, which is sad. People look at a game like it's the National Title, it's one game.
 

It's almost never as good or bad as people make it out to be.
 

Clark W. Griswold said:
I am a Kill supporter and think he will do a good job, but I am not watching this team thinking things are great. We have seen improvement - lack of penalties and handling lesser opponents, but has anyone seen anything to date that says we are in a good position? Each week I watch hoping to see the team compete especially against conference opponents. Iowa was a train wreck, Michigan was better but there is a long way to go. I was not implying that a decision should be made after this year, Kill's health depending, a coach needs time to develop a program. My point is everyone should be in a wait and see mode; let the season finish out. We do live in a world of instant judgement so those calling for a change doesn't surprise me. The negative tones don't surprise me either since the results of the last two games were very negative.
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I can agree with Kill and this staff should be given more time but people are allowed to have formed an opinion about whether this head coach and staff can turn the program around after 2.5 years into it.

What I don't understand is people being called out and being told you can't have an opinion until after a certain amount of time has passed. It's an opinion and there is no required time period to form one. It's up to Kill and his staff to prove they can turn the program around.
 

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