Post 1961 football Program Decline

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4four4 said:
Sorry you are wrong. Why? Green Bay, Madison and Milwaukee are all different markets supporting different teams. If the Gophers and Vikings were in different cities I believe the small college town would support them. Having the Packers and BADgers in different markets helps the BADgers.
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Oy. Wisconsin and Minnesota have roughly the same population. They both have one BCS college footall team and one NFL team. If the University of Minnesota was in St. Cloud or Duluth do you really think they would have an easier time filling a 55,000 seat stadium? Wisconsin's population is not as concentrated as Minnesota, but a significant # of people who attend UW games drive in from the Millwaukee area and so do a large % of people who show up in Green Bay. If anything, Minnesota has less of an excuse.
 

EG#9 said:
I don't get the blaming the Vikings card. So many other states have pro football and major college football and fans support both products. I've never heard of the college fans of say Wisconsin hating the Packers the way some of our fans hate the Vikings.
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Neither have I. I guess we're special. But at least it's a productive use of our time as Gopher fans! Keep at it. We'll drive the Vikes out of town any day now! Then maybe the T-Wolves as well, as the basketball team is also having attendence issues. Just look how hockey attendence is up with the Wild not playing! Pushing to become Cold Omaha (or Lincoln?) is clearly the best strategy.
 

surpher said:
I can remember very distinctly when pres. Ken Keller declared that the U would "de-emphasize" the football program. The U was to become the "Harvard of the Midwest". It wasn't long after when we lost to Nebraska 84-0.
As Pogo said very eloquently "We have met the enemy, and they are us!"
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+1 Very well said! There are lots of things that have contributed to this but by far the most important factor has been the University of Minnesota's administration for the past 50 years or as my good friend wren would say with the "prez". It starts at top folks! The good news is that our new president Eric Kaler does understand what a outstanding football program can do for the University. He is committed to achieving that goal. I just hope we have the patience to let him do it.
 

I blame the Metrodome move, the Vietnam war, factory automation, urbanization, lead based paint, an aging demographic, the decline of beer consumption, the use of baby formula, mercury in vaccine, acid rain, climate change, Pee Wee Herman, and the not allowing Baron Von Raschke to be the Student President in 1983 {(ish) (the numerical winner, but disallowed due to him not being enrolled at the time.)}
 

Wisconsin has easier access to the state of Illinois and even though we know it gets cold in sconnie, they don't have that stereotype to overcome, like Minnesota does, also the state of Minnesota doesn't produce enough high end D-1 talent.
 


howeda7 said:
Oy. Wisconsin and Minnesota have roughly the same population. They both have one BCS college footall team and one NFL team. If the University of Minnesota was in St. Cloud or Duluth do you really think they would have an easier time filling a 55,000 seat stadium? Wisconsin's population is not as concentrated as Minnesota, but a significant # of people who attend UW games drive in from the Millwaukee area and so do a large % of people who show up in Green Bay. If anything, Minnesota has less of an excuse.
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I disagree. IMO, if the Gophers were in St. Cloud, Rochester,or Mankato they would have an easier time filling the stadium. Obviously, we will never know and maybe this just isn't a great sports market.
 

4four4 said:
I disagree. IMO, if the Gophers were in St. Cloud, Rochester,or Mankato they would have an easier time filling the stadium.
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If the U was in St. Cloud or Mankato, it would have half the enrollment it does now. The University doesn't exist without the Twin Cities, making the point moot.
 

4four4 said:
I disagree. IMO, if the Gophers were in St. Cloud, Rochester,or Mankato they would have an easier time filling the stadium. Obviously, we will never know and maybe this just isn't a great sports market.
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Yes move to Rochester, I wouldnt have to get up before dawn to tailgate in St. Paul. We dont even have a college football team. (JuCO doesnt count)

On a side note I see way to many Hawkeyes and Badger stuff down here but being out and about today I have seen a lot of Gopher stuff. WERE COMING!!!!
 

Gopherprof said:
If the U was in St. Cloud or Mankato, it would have half the enrollment it does now. The University doesn't exist without the Twin Cities, making the point moot.
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In the words of 1500 AM "Garage Logic", we don't know that.
 



Lakeville Goldy said:
I know everyone wants to think Minnesota has good football talent, but it just isn't so. Minnesota as a state has a very low percentage of players that make D1 FBS and a low absolute number.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/specialprojects/sports/starsearch/#intmap

In 2009 there were 82 Minnesota kids on any D1 FBS team. And I would bet that at least 1/2 if not 2/3 of them were on Minnesota.
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I suspect one thing affecting those numbers is the fact that there is only one FBS team in Minnesota and the Dakotas: i.e. Minnesota. I think it possible that players who in other parts of the country would be playing for a FBS team are playing for a FCS or even Division II team. That may explain why schools like North Dakota State, South Dakota State, UMD and Mankato State have done relatively well nationally. That's not to say that our area isn't producing far fewer Division I quality football players on a per capita basis than are being produced in other parts of the country. I'm sure that is true. As others have pointed out, a lot of our best athletes play hockey and increasingly, basketball. But in recent years, Minnesota and the Dakotas have produced some extraordinary football players, most of whom have left the state to play elsewhere. This was brought home to me when watching the 2001 Orange Bowl, where Florida State was quarterbacked by Heisman Trophy winner, Chris Weinke, from St Paul, and Oklahoma by Josh Heupel, from Aberdeen, South Dakota, the Heisman runner-up. Among other notable area players in the past decade or so are Joe Mauer, who declined a Florida State football scholarship to play professional baseball, James Laurinaitis, Eric Decker, Michael Floyd and Seantrel Henderson. The only one who played for Minnesota was Eric Decker, and if my memory serves me, he was a two star recruit out of high school. As the only FBS school in the area, we should have been able to land more of these players than just Eric Decker.
 

I guess the way I look at it is that lamenting past triumphs and failures is a waste of energy.

The more important question is what will it take to become relevant in the B1G Ten.
As someone who has been a keen observer of college football for about 30 years, my answers are:
1) Support from the University;
2) Consistency in the coaching philosophy and/or personnel;
3) the establishment of recruiting pipelines/relationships.

I tend to think that we are headed in the right direction in the first two of these and the jury is still out on the third.
I don't intend on spending much time or energy over spilt milk.
 

Go Gophers Rah said:
I guess the way I look at it is that lamenting past triumphs and failures is a waste of energy.

The more important question is what will it take to become relevant in the B1G Ten.
As someone who has been a keen observer of college football for about 30 years, my answers are:
1) Support from the University;
2) Consistency in the coaching philosophy and/or personnel;
3) the establishment of recruiting pipelines/relationships.

I tend to think that we are headed in the right direction in the first two of these and the jury is still out on the third.
I don't intend on spending much time or energy over spilt milk.
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We CANNOT IGNORE THE WINNING TRADITIONS of the past if we want to get there again. Michigan has winning tradition too. They are able to become one of the winningest football programs in the country. They have the fortitude of demographics and geography. We don't.

Therefore, we need to do somethings to change the U's fortunes.

You are spot on the three items you have mentioned. But, we need a vehicle for success. Add these to your list:

4. Make the right smart investments in athletic infrastructures (practice facilities with integrated training, rehab, & learning center, etc...) that are student/athlete centric. We've got to compete with other regional programs. Make it attractive for recruits and their families (and coaches!).

5. Consider the sociological aspects when laying out the infrastructures. Make it conducive for fans to come to the U on game day. Consider building a plaza where fans can congregate with tailgating areas close to the stadium. Build a large parking complex nearby that is relatively inexpensive for fans. Have a tram shuttle that bring fans to and from the stadium. Build tunnels and skyways if necessary.

Nothing is guaranteed. But, if we continue the apathy/lack of commitment post 1960s the U will be further left in the dust. Iowa State, Northwestern, Nebraska all have (or will have) very attractive total packages. If we build right, surely good coaches & recruits will come once we start winning.

We need to sell a winner. Action speaks louder than words.
 

I agree with most of the comments. There are a few that really touched me off. In the late 60's the adm. gave the U the 2nd smallest recruiting budget in the BT. There were alot of teachers that didn't like athletes and tried to flunk them out so they had to go to Viet Nam and the TA's didn't. Another MAJOR PROBLEM is the local press. If you go to other towns, those with and without NFL, you see much more coverage. Arkansas gets more coverage daily on spring ball than we get during the season. Go back to the Peach Sports secton from the 60's and see the action sequence photos with the players names. There were pages of them. Most HS football players couldn't wait to get the paper to follow the Gophers. Now maybe one article and maybe 2 pictures. During the week, maybe one article, not daily coverage. Dick Cullum , Jon Roe and Sid Hartmen were homers, but were objective, not the constant negativity you see now.
 



littlebigboy said:
I agree with most of the comments. There are a few that really touched me off. In the late 60's the adm. gave the U the 2nd smallest recruiting budget in the BT. There were alot of teachers that didn't like athletes and tried to flunk them out so they had to go to Viet Nam and the TA's didn't. Another MAJOR PROBLEM is the local press. If you go to other towns, those with and without NFL, you see much more coverage. Arkansas gets more coverage daily on spring ball than we get during the season. Go back to the Peach Sports secton from the 60's and see the action sequence photos with the players names. There were pages of them. Most HS football players couldn't wait to get the paper to follow the Gophers. Now maybe one article and maybe 2 pictures. During the week, maybe one article, not daily coverage. Dick Cullum , Jon Roe and Sid Hartmen were homers, but were objective, not the constant negativity you see now.
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I had a former player(played in early 70's) tell me the players were told by the coaches to not inform the professors they were a football player, because they would get a lesser grade.
 

We can talk about wild conspiracy theories all we want, but what really is there is a series of bad hires and fires.

The 1970's Gophers under Cal Stoll were pretty decent. In 1973, the Gophers were 6-2 in the Big Ten, and we haven't matched that record yet. His final three years, the Gophers finished 4-4 in the Big Ten. Since then we haven't had more than two consecutive non-losing seasons. Firing Stoll was a mistake.

That mistake was compounded by hiring Joe Salem. He had a good D-II record, but no D-I experience. People were too enamored of his Minnesota ties. Lou Holtz pulled the Gophers out of the ditch, but the U let him out of his contract.

Then we hired Gutekunst. He did manage to keep the Gophers for the most part on the same level as the team he inherited from Holtz, but didn't advance the team. He did have two seasons with winning Big Ten records, but had two pretty bad seasons.

Then came the real dark ages of Gopher football when Wacker was hired. He had a losing record as a D-I head coach, and proceeded to come here and lose. His best record here was 4-7 in 1993 and 1996. His Gophers team once managed to win three Big Ten games in 1996.

Whether or not firing Mason was a good idea (feel free to debate this), hiring a tight ends coach with no experience as a head coach or a coordinator was a mistake.
 

station19 said:
I had a former player(played in early 70's) tell me the players were told by the coaches to not inform the professors they were a football player, because they would get a lesser grade.
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I was told this happened as well. It was talked about in one of my classes at the U.
 

I love this debate as a former player for Salem and Holtz. Salem had nothing and got nothing from the AD or President. But when Holtz came he had this "Svengali" control over everything at the U. He got us a practice facility within 1 year. He got the Administration to allow Players to register before other students so classes could did not interfere with practice. He was well on his way to get a Football Dorm built. He was control freak because unfortunately that's what was needed. No one in the AD or President’s office had any idea how to build a program. But one thing Holtz always bitched about was the strangle hold Michigan and Ohio State had on the Big Ten. It was always their way. They dictated game times, when they could use the Metrodome to practice; they didn't like the Turf, on and on... That's what really ticked off Holtz. He also wanted to keep General College so he could bring in the athletes that were needed to win, but Keller wanted it gone to make us “Harvard of the North”. As a whole Holtz got tremendous support from the Faculty, mostly because of his celebrity status.

One overlooked aspect of this whole thing is the local press. They are always looking for dirt on athletes. In contrast to Lincoln, NE and Iowa City they’ll look the other way if there is a bar room brawl. Football has to be emphasized, even if it means cutting some other sports. Minnesota also really needs to study what works in other metropolitan areas with winning programs that turned it around. Everything surrounding football needs to be a priority otherwise its mediocrity forever.
 

Lou Holtz leaving after two seasons was a real killer for many fans. Things were finally looking up after an uncharacteristically ambitious hire by the U of M. People were strongly behind Holtz and were pretty shook up about him bailing. It took fifteen years, until the latter part of the 1999 season, for the enthusiasm level among the general public to get all the way back to where it was right before Holtz left. That's a lot of time and lost ground.
 


Does the media in those cities or places like Tuscaloosa or South Bend really look the other way on brawls and other off field incidents? I accept that may have been the case at one point, but cynical editors and reporters are hardly unique to this area and in the social media age it's impossible to truly keep stuff under wraps regardless.
 

People don't realize that Tim Brewster was the exact hire that the Gophers and (us) fans were looking for. Under Mason, our recruiting efforts were on the bottom of the big ten nearly every year and we could never keep the really good kids inside the state. On the other hand, Brewster was known as a very good recruiter and I think that played in a lot of consideration with Maturi. Also, Brewster was a rah-rah kind of a guy and was a people person wanting to get the gopher brand out to the rest of the world. With Mason he was kind of all about himself and wasn't really personable with a lot of people. I mean, every single picture in the football facilities included himself.

Now the Brewster hire did set us back and Maturi Failed badly, I think people need to realize that's what we were looking for. However, he wasn't as good as a coach as anyone thought we were.

I think Following with Kill after Brewster was exactly what the program needed because we need stability within the staff and a coach that's a damn good football coach that can turn a football program around.

Just my thoughts
 

Sports_Realist said:
Lou Holtz leaving after two seasons was a real killer for many fans. Things were finally looking up after an uncharacteristically ambitious hire by the U of M. People were strongly behind Holtz and were pretty shook up about him bailing. It took fifteen years, until the latter part of the 1999 season, for the enthusiasm level among the general public to get all the way back to where it was right before Holtz left. That's a lot of time and lost ground.
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Lying Lou leaving was the best thing that could have happened for this program. In his last 4 stops coaching, Lou's (former) teams received NCAA sanctions 100% of the time, the year after he left. If he lasted 2 more years here, I have little doubt that we would have received the "death penalty".
 

I was going to start a thread asking ---- 'Who is to blame for the 50 year football downturn at the U' It appears from this thread that no Big Ten(OSU and UM aside) team give a lick about football throughout the 60's 70s and 80s. NCAA rule changes in the early 90s created more parity and lifted the WI and NW and everyone else who gave football half a glance. I suppose in 1980 the last MN national championship was only 20 years ago so they were living on those laurels.
 

There were bigger issues in the late sixties and early seventies than football. The civil rights movement and the Vietnam War took center stage. I remembered people worrying about the draft. People coming home in coffins. This is real heavy stuff as a kid.

1972-1983 were horrible years under Cal Stoll and Joe Salem, Hardly any support to none for football from the administration. Lou Holtz came for two seasons, and there were lots of optimism. He asked for and got a lot of things. Then, just like that the carpet bagger moved on to Notre Dame. Years came after with Gutekunst and Wacker that didn't exactly light Gopher Football. Mason brought a lot of promise, but not necessarily the full support. If only he fixed the darn defense, who knows.

Like the Bob Dylan song, "The Times They Are A-Changin'", the mood about MN football devolved and evolved. Now, they are on an upswing.
 

hungan1 said:
There were bigger issues in the late sixties and early seventies than football. The civil rights movement and the Vietnam War took center stage. I remembered people worrying about the draft. People coming home in coffins. This is real heavy stuff as a kid.

1972-1983 were horrible years under Cal Stoll and Joe Salem, Hardly any support to none for football from the administration. Lou Holtz came for two seasons, and there were lots of optimism. He asked for and got a lot of things. Then, just like that the carpet bagger moved on to Notre Dame. Years came after with Gutekunst and Wacker that didn't exactly light Gopher Football. Mason brought a lot of promise, but not necessarily the full support. If only he fixed the darn defense, who knows.

Like the Bob Dylan song, "The Times They Are A-Changin'", the mood about MN football devolved and evolved. Now, they are on an upswing.
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those are all good points.
 

hungan1 said:
1972-1983 were horrible years under Cal Stoll and Joe Salem, Hardly any support to none for football from the administration.
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On the field Stoll should not be lumped in with Salem. Cal was nearly a .500 conference-record coach (27-29), which is nothing to sneeze at. Kill and Mason were .400 conference-record coaches. Stoll's 1977 team beat a # 1 Michigan team in Minneapolis, which is the last time the Wolverines have lost in Minnesota. They also beat Washington that year, who won the Pac 8, and also UCLA, who tied for 2nd. I don't know the facts about lack of admin support for Stoll, but his teams were not anywhere near the disaster that Salem's teams were by '82 and '83.
 

The Gophers weren't the equivalent of Nebraska. The Gophers hadn't won the Big 10 title since 1941. The Gophers' average finish was 6th place in that span. They had 4 third place finishes, and only finished as high as third once in the 50s. The Gophers had a few really good seasons in the 60's, but they weren't a dynasty. What happened was moving to the Metrodome and some poor hiring and firing decisions. Cal Stoll didn't bring the Gophers back to conference titles, but they weren't bad teams at all. The Gophers had a 6-2 Big Ten record in 1972, and haven't won that many games since. His last three seasons, the Gophers were 4-4 three consecutive years, and that hasn't happened since. His Gophers teams played brutal non-conference schedules. Firing Stohl, hiring Salem and moving to the dome were three things that hurt the Gophers. The excitement over the dome soon faded.
 

vagopher said:
Recently someone asked why Minnesota football declined after we beat UCLA in the 1961 Rose Bowl. I believe there are two possible factors. One is the creation of the Vikings whose first season was that year. The other is what I understand was a University de-emphasis of the program about that time.
Before the Vikings, Minnesota was like Nebraska, the focus of Minnesota football fans was on the Gophers. Playing for the Gophers was most Minnesota high school players dream. The Vikings changed that. To be sure, our success in the 1960 an 1961 seasons was in large part due to our ground breaking recruitment of African-American players, such as Sandy Stephens, Karl Eller and Bobby Lee Bell, with the help of Star Tribune columnist, Carl Rowan. But for years we had been able to keep most of the crème de le crème of Minnesota football talent in state. After the Vikings, I believe the Gophers lost their luster with in-state players which declined further as our on field success declined.
As for the University's de-emphasis of the program, the 1960 and 1961 seasons were my junior and senior years at the University (yeah, I'm an old guy). My recollection is that there was an initiative at that time within the Minnesota Faculty Senate to follow the lead of the University of Chicago and drop intercollegiate football, which was thwarted by our 1960 Rose Bowl invitation. Because bowl revenues are shared , there was supposedly pressure from both alumni and the Big Ten conference to accept the invitation. (declining the invitation, as I understand it, would have permitted the Rose Bowl to invite a non Big Ten team.) But while the Rose Bowl invitation may have saved the program, I suspect that funding for the program was significantly cut.
I tried to research whether this is true. I reviewed "The University of Minnesota 1945-2000", by Sanford Lehmberg and Ann Pflaum, but there is nothing in that publication that either confirms or rebuts this possibility. Can anyone shed further light on this?
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We weren't that good after the war and through the 50's either, than we figured out African Americans were good at football and suddenly we were going to back to back Rose Bowls. Then other schools decided to stop being biggots and our biggest advantage in recruiting talent, combined with the University supporting the program, letting the stadium crumble, moving us to the Dome, hiring a bunch of incompetent boobs to run the program a bing bing bing.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 

BigTenGuy said:
On the field Stoll should not be lumped in with Salem. Cal was nearly a .500 conference-record coach (27-29), which is nothing to sneeze at. Kill and Mason were .400 conference-record coaches. Stoll's 1977 team beat a # 1 Michigan team in Minneapolis, which is the last time the Wolverines have lost in Minnesota. They also beat Washington that year, who won the Pac 8, and also UCLA, who tied for 2nd. I don't know the facts about lack of admin support for Stoll, but his teams were not anywhere near the disaster that Salem's teams were by '82 and '83.
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You have a good point there about the Cal Stoll era. He had a couple of 7-win and 6-win seasons with a 0.500 overall winning percentage (39-39, 27-29). Mason had eight 6 to 10-win seasons (64-57, 32-48). Overall, they never win enough games to go to the Rise Bowl like Murray Warmath did.
 

Local professional football and other Universities opening up enrollment to African-American student-athletes are the main factors in the U's football program's decline. Professional football provided a better bang for those who could only spare a few bucks, and schools in better climates were more enticing to student-athletes than what we have to offer here. There were certainly other factors as well, but these two aspects had the largest impact.
 

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