Possible grad transfers for the Gophers

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We have gone over this ad nauseam. Remember that during the end of the really bad season he had to start a walk on as PG. Until this year Pitino, has had various holes in his rosters and had to player guys out of position. Of course he had a good deal to do with those problems, but not all of it. He also has learned a lot from those first years. Pitino has proven that he can coach and develop players. And just comparing records doesn’t paint the full picture. If you go for a young coach, you have too expect some growing pains.
Next year will be totally different and all will be forgotten. I don’t think we should settle for bit players. We have seen how much a four years hole in the roster can hurt your team.


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bizzle22 said:
Yea, sorry but this is another example of not properly comparing other coaches to Pitino. In what you said above, you basically say that Tubby's worst season counts as a bad year, but Pitino's second season doesn't count as a bad year. Let's compare them...

Pitino's second season (2014-15): 18-15 overall, 6-12 in B1G
Tubby's worst season (2010-11): 17-14 overall, 6-12 in B1G


Those look pretty darn similar to me. I don't see how anyone looking at it from an unbiased perspective could put them in different categories.
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Ok, I can acknowledge your point. So Pitino's had more than one bad year outside of last year.


I still SAW a very young and inexperienced coach get a job he shouldn't have. I NEVER wanted Pitino, I wanted Flip Saunders.

But the U hired him. And instead of hating the hire, I looked at the LONG TERM benefits. I resigned myself to be more patient with Pitino than I was with Tubby. Tubby had the experience and a Title, he had no excuse to come here and slowly get worse and worse as he did. He was mailing it in and I saw DECLINE, not progress.

So Tubby was better right off the bat than Pitino. That should have been expected.


But what I saw from Pitino was progressively better and better recruiting, that after the initial decline from year 1 to 2 to 3, that was a result of his trying too hard to win right away. I wish he had resigned himself to losing right away, and then slowly building up, but oh well, I chalk that up to a rookie mistake. But that progressively better and better recruiting resulted in what I saw even in year 3, POTENTIAL. The team was so young and came so close to winning a lot of those games. Really reminded me of the 1988 team. And the next year reminded me of the 1989 team. Year 4 was a great year, and without the injuries and suspension this year, year 5 would have been something like the 1990 team. But the best thing is that year 6 wasn't going to be like the 1991 team at all, because Pitino didn't do like Clem, he didn't build the team from scratch with all young guys, he brought in transfers that gave the team some experience, while slowly bringing along the younger players. This is how you build a team that remains good for a long time, balanced classes. It's why it's so important that Pitino bring in a player with 2 years of eligibility remaining and another that is a grad transfer. Best way to maintain balanced classes for years to come.


So IF there had been no injuries last year, Gopher fans would be just living high on life because of the incredible upward path Pitino has the team on.

Year 4 was great, ended a little sucky, but still. Year 5 was by most accounts, going into the season BEFORE the injury to Curry, hopes were VERY high.

Year 6 would have seen the departures of Thin & Thinner, Mason & Lynch, 2 way below avg players and 2 above avg players, being replaced by FIVE new players, but now 6 with Fitz leaving too. May not be able to replace Mason & Lynch directly, but if most of the returning players improve, well, those 2 won't need to be replaced directly, as their skills and scoring and defense will hopefully be replaced both directly with new players, and indirectly with the improvement of returning players, and then it almost doesn't matter who replaces Nice & Nicer, as we all agree that HAS TO BE an upgrade. And if one of the guys transferring in is at least healthy, that could easily be an upgrade from Fitz.

So we see a MAJOR upgrade in depth, which I consider to be progression, going in the right direction.




I think it's pretty simple, the people that HATE Pitino ignore that fact that year 5 should have been a great year, and that injuries and bad luck did the team in, and instead focus on blaming it on Pitino, claiming his recruiting of Smart & Smarter was just the most horrible job of recruiting ever, and that bringing those 2 into the program is the whole problem. And they LOVE including the horrible win/loss record from this year in with the others and pointing to the total and saying SEE HOW BAD HE IS AS A COACH.

And fans that Like or LOVE Pitino are simply willing to basically ignore the results from this last year, and see it for what it should have been, and add, IN THEIR MIND, how good year 4 was, to how good year 5 should have been, and how good they think year 6 could be, and they see Pitino as a guy leading U bb in the right direction, in an upward trending direction. And as for years 2 and 3, they see those for what they were, mistakes made by a young and inexperienced coach resulting in fewer wins than we all would have hoped for, and more scandal that we ever wanted.

And both groups saw year 3 differently as well. The group that hates Pitino see only lots of losses in year 3. The group that likes Pitino sees all the games that were very close, and they saw all the youth and potential.



Honestly, if Gopher fans want some perspective, go look over Clem's first THREE years, leading up to the NCAA tourney.

If you asked an outsider, what they thought about the 1989 Gophers, even after they got to the Sweet 16, they would point out how lucky the Gophers were to play Siena in the 2nd round game. And looking at their first 3 seasons, 2-16 in conf, 4-14, 9-9. And they lost 4 games in a row towards the end of the season where they got BLOWN AWAY by 38 points, then 15, then 13, then 5. Before that they had a 1 pt win over Wisconsin and a 2 pt win over Iowa, both home games, that had they gone the other way, well, I'd say that 4 game losing streak would have cost them a chance to dance. They lost to Ball St and to Drake in the ooc that year and didn't play a single ranked team in the ooc that year, either.

We look back at 1989, and view it through Maroon & Gold colored glasses, and look at it also through the lens of how well they did in 1990, and our perceptions are skewed.

1989, all by itself was hardly special. I mean, the win over Iowa and especially the win over Illinois were great, and the win over Kansas St was not bad, either, but we also followed up that big win over #1 Illinois with a loss to unranked MSU, and 2 games after the win over Iowa we lost to unranked NW. We couldn't win a road game to save our lives. We went 1-8 on the road in conf matchups.



But nobody seems to think badly of Clem? 1990 alone seems to make up for 87 & 88 & 91.

2-4-5 wins in conf those 3 seasons, and Clem never had 3.5 of his top 6 players out for injury or suspension any of those seasons either. And it took Clem SEVEN years after 90 to get the team beyond the 1st weekend again. So he had ONE truly special season in his first 10 years. But most Gopher fans seem to look back at the Clem years as good years, other than the cheating and all, of course. But just the bb on the court, they remember 89 & 90 and 97, only 2 of those 3 years were really special if you are honest with yourselves about 89. We got trounced by Duke in the S16 in 89, wasn't even close.


My point? Clem sold out the future to get that one magical year in, 1990, then sold out the long term future to get that 2nd magical year in, 1997.


Pitino has made some mistakes, especially early on, but has the program on the upward path and he's worth investing in, show him some patience.

I guarantee if you do, he'll have more than 2 special seasons in 11 years. And since 98 & 99 weren't all that great, either, you could make that 13 years.
 

alchemy2u said:
We have gone over this ad nauseam. Remember that during the end of the really bad season he had to start a walk on as PG. Until this year Pitino, has had various holes in his rosters and had to player guys out of position. Of course he had a good deal to do with those problems, but not all of it. He also has learned a lot from those first years. Pitino has proven that he can coach and develop players. And just comparing records doesn’t paint the full picture. If you go for a young coach, you have too expect some growing pains.
Next year will be totally different and all will be forgotten. I don’t think we should settle for bit players. We have seen how much a four years hole in the roster can hurt your team.


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Hey alchemy2u, we may disagree when it comes to hockey, but I see we agree about Pitino!!
 


For all the people that say this is suppose to be rebuilding year and that Pitino should either go now or in 2 years my question is why?
We have mostly the same roster as 2 years ago that we’re in the rotation minus Nate Reggie and Akeem (yeah I know that’s a lot of talent) but we have Isaiah and Dan who are like top 65 in the country. These two aren’t as good as Reggie and Nate but honestly they aren’t as far off as some may think. Plus we have bench guys in Gabe Matz and Jamir with improvement of our others from 2 years (Murph is a lot better). Add all this and if Pitino wisely uses the scholarships...often doesn’t then there’s no excuse not to be as talented as 2 years ago (not saying we will be but if pitino knew how to manage scholarships it would be even better)
 

alchemy2u said:
Pitino has proven that he can coach and develop players.

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Please tell me that was sarcasm.

How can two post players who were about 24 years old when they finished their four year careers develop so little during that time? How much did Pitino develop Buggs in three years? Do you feel Hurt is as improved as he should be at this point?

What do the following players all have in common?

Elliot Eliason, Andre Hollins, DeAndre Mathieu, Carlos Morris; ANSWER: They all played worse in their second years under Pitino than during their first.

Yes, Murphy got better (but he was pretty good to start with) and Mason got better. Lynch was a game changer when he arrived. You can't judge a coach by his best players. Pitino's failure to develop role players has been a thorn in this team's side throughout his time here. Apparently, benching a player whenever he makes a mistake isn't quite as effective of a technique as he thinks it is.

Players should get better regardless of the coach. If they're not improving, that says a lot about the coach.
 

I think Pree has gotten a lot better too. I thought Pitino was good at developing talent too but you have good point that when I actually think about it those are really only true ones he developed without inheriting (pree, Mason, Murphy)
 

cjbfbp said:
Please tell me that was sarcasm.

How can two post players who were about 24 years old when they finished their four year careers develop so little during that time? How much did Pitino develop Buggs in three years? Do you feel Hurt is as improved as he should be at this point?

What do the following players all have in common?

Elliot Eliason, Andre Hollins, DeAndre Mathieu, Carlos Morris; ANSWER: They all played worse in their second years under Pitino than during their first.

Yes, Murphy got better (but he was pretty good to start with) and Mason got better. Lynch was a game changer when he arrived. You can't judge a coach by his best players. Pitino's failure to develop role players has been a thorn in this team's side throughout his time here. Apparently, benching a player whenever he makes a mistake isn't quite as effective of a technique as he thinks it is.

Players should get better regardless of the coach. If they're not improving, that says a lot about the coach.
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Curry showed improvement, Murphy big time improvement, Mason improved, IW improved, Harris showed some progress, Hurt showed some flashes this past season, McBrayer has shown improvement, Coffey has improved, and Lynch you say was a game changer when he arrived? A game changer who fouled out ALOT the first 2/3rds give or take, of his first season, and not so much the last part of the season, the part where we were winning all of those games in a row. And he was doing better than the start of last year at the start of this year as well, and if he hadn't gotten suspended, I fully expected his improvement to continue.

So other than Slim and Slimmer, who on this year's team haven't I mentioned? Fitz and Stockman? Well, Stockman obviously we know nothing about really, and Fitz, well, with his injuries, it's really hard to tell. I thought I saw some improvement as the season progressed, although there was a lot of inconsistency, too. But how long did he not play? 2 seasons?


Guys like Hurt and IW and Harris may have shown some inconsistency, but they were all of a sudden being depended upon to be starters or play significant minutes off the bench, so that probably had more to do with it, not being able to bring them along slower and more naturally. But in the long run that extra experience may pay off down the line?


I don't care about how he did as a coach in year 1 or 2, not if what he's done in year 3, 4 & 5 show that he himself developed and got better.

He was a young and inexperienced coach, honestly we never should have gone with him, but we did, so I say we show him some patience. I think this year will be a decent one and I expect that we'll be dancing come March. I really do.
 



Goph33 said:
I think Pree has gotten a lot better too. I thought Pitino was good at developing talent too but you have good point that when I actually think about it those are really only true ones he developed without inheriting (pree, Mason, Murphy)
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Thanks! Pree improved substantially from his freshman to his soph year but that is often the year when players make a big leap. I know he was hurting this year so it's not really fair to place much emphasis on this year's performance but this was a guy who Pitino said on multiple occasions had as much potential as anyone when he recruited him. So far we haven't seen evidence of that high ceiling but he has another year.
 

KillmeNow said:
Curry showed improvement, Murphy big time improvement, Mason improved, IW improved, Harris showed some progress, Hurt showed some flashes this past season, McBrayer has shown improvement, Coffey has improved, and Lynch you say was a game changer when he arrived? A game changer who fouled out ALOT the first 2/3rds give or take, of his first season, and not so much the last part of the season, the part where we were winning all of those games in a row. And he was doing better than the start of last year at the start of this year as well, and if he hadn't gotten suspended, I fully expected his improvement to continue.

So other than Slim and Slimmer, who on this year's team haven't I mentioned? Fitz and Stockman? Well, Stockman obviously we know nothing about really, and Fitz, well, with his injuries, it's really hard to tell. I thought I saw some improvement as the season progressed, although there was a lot of inconsistency, too. But how long did he not play? 2 seasons?


Guys like Hurt and IW and Harris may have shown some inconsistency, but they were all of a sudden being depended upon to be starters or play significant minutes off the bench, so that probably had more to do with it, not being able to bring them along slower and more naturally. But in the long run that extra experience may pay off down the line?


I don't care about how he did as a coach in year 1 or 2, not if what he's done in year 3, 4 & 5 show that he himself developed and got better.

He was a young and inexperienced coach, honestly we never should have gone with him, but we did, so I say we show him some patience. I think this year will be a decent one and I expect that we'll be dancing come March. I really do.
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Obviously you believe that your writing merits voluminous space. You are mistaken.
 

cjbfbp said:
Please tell me that was sarcasm.

How can two post players who were about 24 years old when they finished their four year careers develop so little during that time? How much did Pitino develop Buggs in three years? Do you feel Hurt is as improved as he should be at this point?

What do the following players all have in common?

Elliot Eliason, Andre Hollins, DeAndre Mathieu, Carlos Morris; ANSWER: They all played worse in their second years under Pitino than during their first.

Yes, Murphy got better (but he was pretty good to start with) and Mason got better. Lynch was a game changer when he arrived. You can't judge a coach by his best players. Pitino's failure to develop role players has been a thorn in this team's side throughout his time here. Apparently, benching a player whenever he makes a mistake isn't quite as effective of a technique as he thinks it is.

Players should get better regardless of the coach. If they're not improving, that says a lot about the coach.
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Yeah, you totally lose me here. I can understand how some question Pitino's x's and o's, although I think they take it too far. I think player development is a major strength of Pitino. Mason and Murphy didn't even make the top 150 at 247 Sports. McBrayer barely made the top 150. Their improvement has been steady and significant from their freshman years. Even more dramatic was Isaiah Washington's improvement this season. Pitino even got good play out of Ahanmisi back in the day, which was shocking to me at the time. I could name others.

3 of the 4 players you mentioned as not improving were with Pitino no more than 2 years, although I will grant that they didn't improve over that time. Do you really feel any coach could have gotten more out of Konate or Gaston?

I think his players recognize that as well. Those who spend a year with Pitino spend four years with Pitino. They wouldn't do that if they didn't see it was in their own best interest.
 

KillmeNow said:
Hey alchemy2u, we may disagree when it comes to hockey, but I see we agree about Pitino!!
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Correct. Pitino is going to be a very good coach for a long time at the U.
There sure is some selective remembering going on when it comes to player development. It is hard to make productive players out of recruiting misses. Pitino knows very well that he aimed too high his first year and ended up settling for a couple of reach players that were physically gifted, but weren’t good B.B. players. He turned Walker from a buffet buster into a beast, he turned Mason into one of the best PG’s in the B1G, Murphy has developed into a player every team in the B1G desires, Lynch from fouling out in a quarter into B1G defensive player of the year, etc... All the beat writers talk about how much time Pitino spends on individual player development. Of course he has had growing pains, but he is moving in the right direction.


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And the new grad transfer is...
(just trying to get back on topic)
 

Tubby sucks and anyone that thinks Rich Pit doesn’t develop players should switch to breaking down knitting contests.

Now. Who is a grad transfer we will hope to get?
 

ltf said:
Yeah, you totally lose me here. I can understand how some question Pitino's x's and o's, although I think they take it too far. I think player development is a major strength of Pitino. Mason and Murphy didn't even make the top 150 at 247 Sports. McBrayer barely made the top 150. Their improvement has been steady and significant from their freshman years. Even more dramatic was Isaiah Washington's improvement this season. Pitino even got good play out of Ahanmisi back in the day, which was shocking to me at the time. I could name others.

3 of the 4 players you mentioned as not improving were with Pitino no more than 2 years, although I will grant that they didn't improve over that time. Do you really feel any coach could have gotten more out of Konate or Gaston?

I think his players recognize that as well. Those who spend a year with Pitino spend four years with Pitino. They wouldn't do that if they didn't see it was in their own best interest.
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"Mason and Murphy didn't even make the top 150 at 247 Sports"

So effing what?!! Are you one of these gullible idiots who thinks 247 ratings are science? Dwayne Wade wasn't a top 150 player. TJ McConnell (backup point guard for the Sixers and former starting point guard for Arizona) received one D1 offer coming out of high school. I could name plenty more omissions by these ratings. Obviously plenty of players are underrated and plenty overrated by these metrics. And Murphy was very good when he arrived here.

And based on what I've seen of McBrayer the last 3 years I don't think he deserved to be a top 150 player so at least they got that right.

"Do you really feel any coach could have gotten more out of Konate or Gaston?"

Hell yes! The fact that these players didn't improve more than they did while being older than most of the players they were playing against is a great disgrace against Pitino's program. Again, you don't judge a coach's development prowess by his best and most driven players. Dwayne Wade didn't go from lightly regarded to high lottery pick in two years because of his Marquette coach.

I didn't mention Washington because I don't attribute a freshman's play much to a coach one way or another. But, essentially Washington, who was supposed to be pretty good when he got here, improved significantly (although considering he was fairly terrible at the beginning, he could only go up) with significantly more playing time. Isn't that what normally happens?

You're so desperate to make an argument that you're going to cite a few games by Ahanmisi late in his senior year as evidence of Pitino's ability at player development? Wow, how lame can you get?
 


cjbfbp said:
"Mason and Murphy didn't even make the top 150 at 247 Sports"

So effing what?!! Are you one of these gullible idiots who thinks 247 ratings are science? Dwayne Wade wasn't a top 150 player. TJ McConnell (backup point guard for the Sixers and former starting point guard for Arizona) received one D1 offer coming out of high school. I could name plenty more omissions by these ratings. Obviously plenty of players are underrated and plenty overrated by these metrics. And Murphy was very good when he arrived here.

And based on what I've seen of McBrayer the last 3 years I don't think he deserved to be a top 150 player so at least they got that right.

"Do you really feel any coach could have gotten more out of Konate or Gaston?"

Hell yes! The fact that these players didn't improve more than they did while being older than most of the players they were playing against is a great disgrace against Pitino's program. Again, you don't judge a coach's development prowess by his best and most driven players. Dwayne Wade didn't go from lightly regarded to high lottery pick in two years because of his Marquette coach.

I didn't mention Washington because I don't attribute a freshman's play much to a coach one way or another. But, essentially Washington, who was supposed to be pretty good when he got here, improved significantly (although considering he was fairly terrible at the beginning, he could only go up) with significantly more playing time. Isn't that what normally happens?

You're so desperate to make an argument that you're going to cite a few games by Ahanmisi late in his senior year as evidence of Pitino's ability at player development? Wow, how lame can you get?
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Disagree again. Mason, Murphy, Mcbrayer's offer list isn't overly impressive for players who are all big ten freshman, 3rd team all big ten and a double double machine (Murphy), first team all big ten (Mason). I also think much more highly of McBrayer than you. Credit to Pitino for bringing them along.
Neither us can prove that another coach would have or would have not gotten more out of Konate, Gaston. I happen to think they were maxed out.
Ahanmisi was Gaston-like his first years. How come you feel it's fair to ding Pitino when Gaston doesn't improve but no credit when Ahanmisi does?
No, not many players improve as greatly as IW from beginning to end of season. You really wouldn't have given say, Beilein, credit if that improvement occurred under his watch?
 

South Dakota's Matt Mooney exploring options, may grad transfer

Scoring guard.

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SelectionSunday said:
Scoring guard.

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Could be a nice get now that we have two schollies available. Didn't see USD play this year, but at 19ppg for a 26-9 team he's gotta be pretty solid.
 

bizzle22 said:
Could be a nice get now that we have two schollies available. Didn't see USD play this year, but at 19ppg for a 26-9 team he's gotta be pretty solid.
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Was he playing when USD kicked our @$$ a couple years back? Does he play the point? We have shooting guards so if he's not a point then I think we likely pass.
 

MennoSota said:
Was he playing when USD kicked our @$$ a couple years back? Does he play the point? We have shooting guards so if he's not a point then I think we likely pass.
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Can he play good defense and shoot the ball? Then we can use him in my opinion.
 



MennoSota said:
Was he playing when USD kicked our @$$ a couple years back? Does he play the point? We have shooting guards so if he's not a point then I think we likely pass.
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I guess my thinking is that if we are going to bank a scholarship anyways (and with two open scholarships in April, odds are we bank one) then he certainly doesn't hurt. I haven't seen him play, but I don't see how a guy who averaged 19 ppg in D1 basketball is worse than nothing at all. As a scoring guard he could replace at least some of what Mason brought. Not saying he's as good as Mason, but it appears he could fill that type of role. Plus, I'm not a McBrayer fan.
 


WorkingMyTailOff said:
Can he play good defense and shoot the ball? Then we can use him in my opinion.
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Saw him play a number of times. He is a tough, hard nosed player that can play good defense. Played more of an off guard, but the offense was run through him. Offensively, he was very good when he stayed within the offense. He would have games where his shot wasn't falling and would force a lot of long jump shots. Some where he would score 25-30 points, but would take 25-30 shots to get there. At his best when he takes the ball to the basket - gets fouled a lot when he does that and is a good free throw shooter. He would be a good fit with a team like the Gophers where he wouldn't have to be the man on offense.
 

bigticket1 said:
Saw him play a number of times. He is a tough, hard nosed player that can play good defense. Played more of an off guard, but the offense was run through him. Offensively, he was very good when he stayed within the offense. He would have games where his shot wasn't falling and would force a lot of long jump shots. Some where he would score 25-30 points, but would take 25-30 shots to get there. At his best when he takes the ball to the basket - gets fouled a lot when he does that and is a good free throw shooter. He would be a good fit with a team like the Gophers where he wouldn't have to be the man on offense.
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Sounds like a good compliment to our current roster. I don’t really see our current perimeter players being strong enough on defense or offense for us to be a tourney team next year with the exception of Coffey.
 

Just read an article on Mooney. He transferred from Air Force. Article talked about him always being assigned a strong offensive player on the other team to guard. Can't have too many shooters. Also, with Duprees injury history, insurance at SG might be ok, too. Seems like we could definitely do worse. Still need a point, though.
 

MennoSota said:
Was he playing when USD kicked our @$$ a couple years back? Does he play the point? We have shooting guards so if he's not a point then I think we likely pass.
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Everyone knows that I'm not a Pitino (not "Tino") apologist, but calling a 4-point double overtime loss an "ass kicking" is quite the hyperbole.
 

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