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BTChamp

BTChamp

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Hypothetical question for better minds than mine. What if Tre Holloman, or any transfer guard that the Gophs were after decided on this team? I'm not trying to get a fight started, so this is just a (hopefully) fun discussion.

There have been countless comments about PG being the biggest issue for this team. I'm not saying it is or if something else is a bigger issue, just that there have been a lot of comments about it.

I think they beat wisconsin, michigan, nebraska in the last 5 games (not Purdue and probably not Illinois). It's been so long since non conference, so I don't know if that would change anything because they were so awkward early in the year.

Question is where do you think they would be now with Tre, or any higher end point guard? I think at least .500 in conference with a trend towards NIT and maybe NCAA and a lot of good press. The big "if" is: can one player make that much of a difference and this team is that close to being respectable? Coupled with next year's recruiting and improvement, they could be a damn good team next year and the future.

I know - "What ifs don't count", but it would be nice to see.
 



Regardless of how one feels about Cooper as the PG of this team, it is clear that we need to add 1 or 2 additional ballhandlers to next year's squad to be competitive. Assuming we add two to the roster, we would have to drop two from the roster to be under the scholarship limit. Doing a little roster management, I would say there are 8 players who are safe--Evans, Payne, Garcia, Fox, Battle, Ola-Joseph, Christie, and Cooper. Out of the others, which 3 would you keep: Thompson, Ihnen, Henley, Samuels, and Betts? Feel free to add one and subtract one...but know that doing so leaves us short on guards again
 

Indiana Gopher said:
Regardless of how one feels about Cooper as the PG of this team, it is clear that we need to add 1 or 2 additional ballhandlers to next year's squad to be competitive. Assuming we add two to the roster, we would have to drop two from the roster to be under the scholarship limit. Doing a little roster management, I would say there are 8 players who are safe--Evans, Payne, Garcia, Fox, Battle, Ola-Joseph, Christie, and Cooper. Out of the others, which 3 would you keep: Thompson, Ihnen, Henley, Samuels, and Betts? Feel free to add one and subtract one...but know that doing so leaves us short on guards again
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in that scenario, goodbye Thompson and Samuels
 



GopherOhana said:
doubt this is news to CBJ. sadly he missed on zeke, tre and j pierre
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Yeah, I didn't mean it as a dig at him or anything. Just what if one of them came to the U. I think the team would be better and a better outlook. Possibly NCAA and a lot better
 

I think a true PG who can create, distribute and score as needed would fix a lot. There would be less wasted possessions ending in contested mid range jumpers from average shooters.

There are still defensive concerns, rebounding concerns, offensive game plan concerns and others…but adding in more talent next year, developing this years talent and having a more balanced (a real PG) roster would fix a ton of things.
 

Imagine Tyger Campbell as that PG (ucla PG).

He is not a lotto pick, probably not an NBA guy even, but he would get guys in the right spots and win
 



Only adding one point guard means they have to stay healthy. What style of basketball are we going to play? Are we going to post up our bigs? What combinations can play together? We likely still can’t shoot free throws and we are short on shooters on the roster. It seems Ben wants to play at the tempo of Wisconsin? If true? Is that next year too?
 

Not to throw a wrench into this discussion, but Cooper could move on. Have to believe he’s on course to graduate. Could go play overseas or jump back in the portal as a grad transfer. If memory serves me correct he did mention only one year when he decided to come here.
 


Lotta PG's out there that would instantly improve the team. Not exactly a bold take. Watch Nowell out there for Kstate vs ISU right now. Baller.

Put guys like Collins, Nowell, Kolek, Hoggard on this team and idk if the roster overall is still that great. And these guys may not be as successful if Ben doesnt use them as well, But I can tell you that this team has at minimimum 3 more BIG10 wins right now.

You have got to have high major guards to win in college.
 



BTChamp said:
Hypothetical question for better minds than mine. What if Tre Holloman, or any transfer guard that the Gophs were after decided on this team? I'm not trying to get a fight started, so this is just a (hopefully) fun discussion.

There have been countless comments about PG being the biggest issue for this team. I'm not saying it is or if something else is a bigger issue, just that there have been a lot of comments about it.

I think they beat wisconsin, michigan, nebraska in the last 5 games (not Purdue and probably not Illinois). It's been so long since non conference, so I don't know if that would change anything because they were so awkward early in the year.

Question is where do you think they would be now with Tre, or any higher end point guard? I think at least .500 in conference with a trend towards NIT and maybe NCAA and a lot of good press. The big "if" is: can one player make that much of a difference and this team is that close to being respectable? Coupled with next year's recruiting and improvement, they could be a damn good team next year and the future.

I know - "What ifs don't count", but it would be nice to see.
Click to expand...
I'm in the camp that Cooper isn't that bad, but I'll answer your question.

If we had Holloman instead of giving the scholarship to Ramberg or if Thompson left (whatever other scenario you're looking at), I don't think we'd be much better this year. It would be interesting watching our offense with two players who could handle the ball, Tre playing point and Cooper moving to the 2, so I think we'd be better but it would be de minimis.

That said, next year would be a bit more interesting. For the sake of "what-ifs", lets say Holloman took Thompson's scholarship and Ihnen (name out of a hat) transfers and we add a wing comparable to EJ Stephens (for the sake of the hypothetical, I'm going to call him Stephens). Our team is starting to take shape. It sort of highlights the importance of roster construction.

C: Payne / Evans
PF: Garcia / Olo-Joseph / Fox
SF: Battle / Henley / Betts
SG: Stephens / Christie / Carrington
PG: Cooper / Holloman

To me, that team isn't a good team, but it's probably competent. It doesn't 100% rely on astronomic progression from current FR and for next year's FR to step right in. We have some versatility in the backcourt (Holloman can play with Cooper, maybe Christie starts, etc.) and maybe most importantly we have so much more ball handling.
 

BTChamp said:
Yeah, I didn't mean it as a dig at him or anything. Just what if one of them came to the U. I think the team would be better and a better outlook. Possibly NCAA and a lot better
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indeed. thinking cooper might have been a plan g, h, or even later. not plan a, b or c
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I'm in the camp that Cooper isn't that bad, but I'll answer your question.

If we had Holloman instead of giving the scholarship to Ramberg or if Thompson left (whatever other scenario you're looking at), I don't think we'd be much better this year. It would be interesting watching our offense with two players who could handle the ball, Tre playing point and Cooper moving to the 2, so I think we'd be better but it would be de minimis.

That said, next year would be a bit more interesting. For the sake of "what-ifs", lets say Holloman took Thompson's scholarship and Ihnen (name out of a hat) transfers and we add a wing comparable to EJ Stephens (for the sake of the hypothetical, I'm going to call him Stephens). Our team is starting to take shape. It sort of highlights the importance of roster construction.

C: Payne / Evans
PF: Garcia / Olo-Joseph / Fox
SF: Battle / Henley / Betts
SG: Stephens / Christie / Carrington
PG: Cooper / Holloman

To me, that team isn't a good team, but it's probably competent. It doesn't 100% rely on astronomic progression from current FR and for next year's FR to step right in. We have some versatility in the backcourt (Holloman can play with Cooper, maybe Christie starts, etc.) and maybe most importantly we have so much more ball handling.
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Thanks. I like that. I also think Cooper is better as the team has learned itself lately. I'm thankful for him to be here.

Edit: Thanks for the breakdown. I know a lot of people talk down to Samuels. And I think that is unjustified. He was offered and he accepted. I get that and he's doing the best he can, and the better gueards chose to go elsewhere. 0I don't think this team is that far away from being decent to above average with the way the defense has looked lately.
 
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MUgopher32 said:
Lotta PG's out there that would instantly improve the team. Not exactly a bold take. Watch Nowell out there for Kstate vs ISU right now. Baller.

Put guys like Collins, Nowell, Kolek, Hoggard on this team and idk if the roster overall is still that great. And these guys may not be as successful if Ben doesnt use them as well, But I can tell you that this team has at minimimum 3 more BIG10 wins right now.

You have got to have high major guards to win in college.
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Agreed, just don’t think it’s super easy to get them. Gotta get lucky in the portal to a point and land them in recruiting, develop them and they help when they are older. The ones who are young and help right away get grabbed by blue bloods and better programs quickly. The old ones who are high level also get snapped up in the portal with NIL money (see Pack from KSU to Miami). Hopefully Ben can snag a Cam Spencer type next season and the year after that you got Carrington and Henley as Jrs and Christie as a sophomore, plus maybe an Asuma as a fresh. That’s can be some depth
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Agreed, just don’t think it’s super easy to get them. Gotta get lucky in the portal to a point and land them in recruiting, develop them and they help when they are older. The ones who are young and help right away get grabbed by blue bloods and better programs quickly. The old ones who are high level also get snapped up in the portal with NIL money (see Pack from KSU to Miami). Hopefully Ben can snag a Cam Spencer type next season and the year after that you got Carrington and Henley as Jrs and Christie as a sophomore, plus maybe an Asuma as a fresh. That’s can be some depth
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I think that hits on something also. It's not like Ben chose to not have a great guard. He went after them but didn't get them. If he had got one, I seriously doubt the U loses to Shitsconsin, Nerdbraska, and michican't in the last 5 games.

That is what I mean, is that this team is 1 player away from making the NCAA tournament, maybe?.
 

I watched the DePaul game and saw lightning quick guards blowing by MN, we look liked like Hamline. Bad thing


This staff better get it together because with a bunch of D3 or 2 slow guards with no shooting it is all over.

OSU game was Ben yelling slow down, slow down, stop.... that is losing BB , it worked once

Todd Leiklieter
 



BTChamp said:
Hypothetical question for better minds than mine. What if Tre Holloman, or any transfer guard that the Gophs were after decided on this team? I'm not trying to get a fight started, so this is just a (hopefully) fun discussion.

There have been countless comments about PG being the biggest issue for this team. I'm not saying it is or if something else is a bigger issue, just that there have been a lot of comments about it.

I think they beat wisconsin, michigan, nebraska in the last 5 games (not Purdue and probably not Illinois). It's been so long since non conference, so I don't know if that would change anything because they were so awkward early in the year.

Question is where do you think they would be now with Tre, or any higher end point guard? I think at least .500 in conference with a trend towards NIT and maybe NCAA and a lot of good press. The big "if" is: can one player make that much of a difference and this team is that close to being respectable? Coupled with next year's recruiting and improvement, they could be a damn good team next year and the future.

I know - "What ifs don't count", but it would be nice to see.
Click to expand...
Lack of guard play is 90+% of the issue this year, and concerning for next year. There is absolutely no way to win at a high level without adequate guard play, and we haven't been getting it. Cooper is good, despite the missed FTs, but you need 3-4 of him. Carrington has potential but it's Cooper and Carrington, and that's good for a last place finish.

Frontcourt is long and talented and will be again next year with Fox, Ihnen, Evans, Christie, Betts joining the rotation with Payne, Garcia, JOJ. That's a solid frontcourt. But without major adds in the backcourt, in trouble. Missing on Tre, Chatman, etc. and not filling with other recruits is a challenge. Hopefully the transfer portal can get us at least 2 probably 3 guards.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I'm in the camp that Cooper isn't that bad, but I'll answer your question.

If we had Holloman instead of giving the scholarship to Ramberg or if Thompson left (whatever other scenario you're looking at), I don't think we'd be much better this year. It would be interesting watching our offense with two players who could handle the ball, Tre playing point and Cooper moving to the 2, so I think we'd be better but it would be de minimis.

That said, next year would be a bit more interesting. For the sake of "what-ifs", lets say Holloman took Thompson's scholarship and Ihnen (name out of a hat) transfers and we add a wing comparable to EJ Stephens (for the sake of the hypothetical, I'm going to call him Stephens). Our team is starting to take shape. It sort of highlights the importance of roster construction.

C: Payne / Evans
PF: Garcia / Olo-Joseph / Fox
SF: Battle / Henley / Betts
SG: Stephens / Christie / Carrington
PG: Cooper / Holloman

To me, that team isn't a good team, but it's probably competent. It doesn't 100% rely on astronomic progression from current FR and for next year's FR to step right in. We have some versatility in the backcourt (Holloman can play with Cooper, maybe Christie starts, etc.) and maybe most importantly we have so much more ball handling.
Click to expand...
Here's a fly in the ointment - nobody plays a 13-man rotation. And Johnson seems more comfortable with a shorter rotation, too, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's an 8-man rotation that gets 90% of the minutes. Which 5 are benched? Will they be happy with that role or hit the portal?
 

Next year’s lineup if Garcia and Payne return:

C: Evans/Payne
PF: Garcia/JOJ/Fox
SF: Battle/Ihnen/Betts
SG: Christie/Henley/Carrington
PG: Cooper/transfer PG

There is no room for TT or Ramberg any more. I believe TT will transfer to play somewhere.
Who else will transfer?
Will Fox or Ihnen retire?

Minutes are going to be hard to come by if Ben doesn’t expand his bench and somebody we don’t expect is going to jump ship. Henley has his buddy coming in so my bet is Carrington or Betts as possible transfers if Battle, Garcia, Fox and Ihnen return. That may not be what anyone wants since I believe Fox and Ihnen to be expendable.

What’s not acceptable is the PG position!

Desperately need a PG who can beat out or at least challenge Cooper for the starting job. Need quickness up top with good handles.

Team should be much improved simply because of Evans. Think if the impact Reggie had on the defense when he played. That alone might make Cooper an acceptable PG.
 

Otis said:
Next year’s lineup if Garcia and Payne return:

C: Evans/Payne
PF: Garcia/JOJ/Fox
SF: Battle/Ihnen/Betts
SG: Christie/Henley/Carrington
PG: Cooper/transfer PG

There is no room for TT or Ramberg any more. I believe TT will transfer to play somewhere.
Who else will transfer?
Will Fox or Ihnen retire?
Click to expand...
I would guess statistically, if us likely that one of them will hang it up
Otis said:
Minutes are going to be hard to come by if Ben doesn’t expand his bench and somebody we don’t expect is going to jump ship. Henley has his buddy coming in so my bet is Carrington or Betts as possible transfers if Battle, Garcia, Fox and Ihnen return. That may not be what anyone wants since I believe Fox and Ihnen to be expendable.

What’s not acceptable is the PG position!

Desperately need a PG who can beat out or at least challenge Cooper for the starting job. Need quickness up top with good handles.

Team should be much improved simply because of Evans. Think if the impact Reggie had on the defense when he played. That alone might make Cooper an acceptable PG.
Click to expand...
 

back to the OP:

as I read your question - it comes down to this - if you substitute a different PG on the MN roster - how much better would that make the team?

well, that all depends on which PG.

Yes, a PG who was a better ball-handler and quicker on defense would help. But does that fix all the issues?

would replacing one player improve the ball movement, rotations, and shot selection? IDK.

so, while I think a better PG would certainly help, I don't think it's as simple as replacing one person. unless the new PG is a 1st-team All B1G caliber player.
 

A better question than “Would a different PG make the team better?”, is What does this team lack that keeps it from being better?

1. A rim protector on defense. We have nobody who can block shots and put the fear into drivers in the middle. Payne can do some with his man-child frame but he is not an elite shot blocker. Evans will take care of this problem.

2. Lack of speed up top. This team can and is consistently blown by on top and in the wings. Evans presence will help slow penetrators but we need better speed defensively. The freshmen need to develop their games to maximize their athleticism but Cooper lacks lateral quickness. Need more speed.

3. No real floor general. Having a guy who can set up the offense, Drive and dish would do wonders for the offense. This skill has not been recruited and is not on the roster.

So, to answer the OP question, a better point guard would add a couple victories but not much else beyond that.
 

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