PJ Fleck is better at Xs and Os than Jerry Kill and Matt Limegrover

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MennoSota said:
I like how Fleck burns his timeouts early in each half...
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I think anyone who takes early timeouts should be fired.

After Fleck is fired they should fire that dumbass patriots coaches who called a timeout in the first drive of the super bowl
 

XMan said:
Offense has been better. Defense has been worse. Say what you want about claeys but his defensive adjustments at half were always really solid.
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This thread is about offense moron
 

Face The Facts said:
We've been told on this forum by wise posters that PJ himself is not an X's and O's guy. From that we know this can't be true.

To even question it we would need to compare his offensive rankings compared to other teams in the Big Ten (and not nationally) to ensure they are actually better.
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Anyone who says Fleck doesn’t pay attention to Xs and Os puts themselves as being completely unaware
 


Some guy said:
Well, we are talking football which is different for this board.


Biggest difference I see is the creation of easy throws.

Liedner never had easy throws. Felt bad for him.


Defense will tell the tale of this regime. Offense is going to be above average.
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Leidner has no receivers his senior year


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MNVCGUY said:
Offense looks like it has the potential to blow the doors off anything we had during the Kill/Limegrover years. Defense to this point has been worse however if those final 4 games are any indication of the future the defense may quickly reach the levels they did under Claeys and Sawvel.

The combination of both those things would lead to something truly special around here.
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I think people should lower their expectations of the offense.
I expect it to be running smooth more often, but I don’t expect the good times to look better than the good times did this season.

Hopefully the offense plays well in 10+ games instead of 2018 where I’d argue they played well in 7-8 games depending on how you feel about Nebraska game (I thought offense played well against Nebraska all things considered)
 

blueribbon said:
Leidner has no receivers his senior year


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Wolitarski and Tyler johnson (fr) aren’t great but they aren’t terrible.

The more difficult thing is that they had him attempt a lot of difficult throws. They didn’t design anything that created easy throws. If Liedner played in the current offense he would’ve looked a lot more comfortable IMO

Feel free to disagree with me
 

Some guy said:
Letting your coaches coach =/= not paying attention to Xs and Os

If you think it does you aren’t very smart
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Whether I am smart or not, that isn’t what I said. I have no clue whether he “pays attention” to that aspect or not. FtF said folks on here said PJ isn’t an Xs and Os guy and I corrected him that<b> PJ himself has said he isn’t an Xs and Os guy. </b>That’s just a fact. Seriously, you Fleck defenders can see a slight in anything.


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Spoofin said:
Whether I am smart or not, that isn’t what I said. I have no clue whether he “pays attention” to that aspect or not. FtF said folks on here said PJ isn’t an Xs and Os guy and I corrected him that<b> PJ himself has said he isn’t an Xs and Os guy. </b>That’s just a fact. Seriously, you Fleck defenders can see a slight in anything.


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No where in the article you posted does Fleck say he isn’t an Xs and Os Guy. Nor has he said that.


I’m not a Fleck Guy. I find Fleck annoying as hell
 



Some guy said:
No where in the article you posted does Fleck say he isn’t an Xs and Os Guy. <b>Nor has he said that.</b>


I’m not a Fleck Guy. I find Fleck annoying as hell
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See, the problem there is that he has said it. I’m not the only one on this thread that remembers it. Do a little research then come back and apologize.


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Spoofin said:
See, the problem there is that he has said it. I’m not the only one on this thread that remembers it. Do a little research then come back and apologize.


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Shouldn’t be very hard for you to find it and post it
 

Spoofin said:
See, the problem there is that he has said it. I’m not the only one on this thread that remembers it. Do a little research then come back and apologize.


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I asked before where he said it, and in the article you supplied (and others people have tried to post similar) he says that he leaves the X's and O's to his coaches (which I agree with).

Now, if you are still following my line of argument, "some" people on here seem to take the liberty to imply he doesn't understand the X's and O's that much. Like... "The other team was really our-scheming us but PJ isn't an X's and O's guy so he didn't know how to handle that".

In the end it's not worth arguing about.



On a separate note, I think you have often questioned if PJ even tried to win in year 1 (year zero) and in his speech today he said he doesn't. You can watch the first half of his speech here.
You can start at 28:40 of the video for the payoff. (you were right).


<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


(Yes, I watched the whole 32 minutes).
 

Without providing statistics, I seem to recall our game against Northwestern looking pretty poor on the offensive side of the ball. I think Morgan may have fumbled a couple times against the Wildcats and overall we just looked over matched by the defense of NW.

Im quite sure our special teams played a big role in that game against Wisconsin. I see why many are very optimistic about the offense next year, but we still have a long way to go to be able to put up 30+ points against the top teams in the BIG.

In defense of Limegrover, he is a nice offensive line coach, he is not a BIG OC, he's just not and I don't think he even wanted to be OC.

IN the end, I think we can win a couple games next year on special teams alone. Our return game is a cut above and gives us a distinct advantage in that area over most of our competition.
 




Well, I could be wrong but I recall PJ stating Robb’s defense was schematically sound and paraphrasing this but he may have said he didn’t have the guys to run it - too young, too little talent. Now, maybe he was running cover for his buddy, or maybe he agreed with everything Robb was doing but felt the need to sacrifice him to appease the fans or his boss or light a fire under the team. It’s possible the best Xs and Os coaches are simply the guys that recognize both what their guys are good and bad at and similarly what their opponents are good and bad at, with a dash of a knack for guessing right more than guessing wrong, recruiting good players, and teaching solid execution and fundamentals. Despite all the non-standardized lingo between coaches and variety in formations football isn’t that complicated when it boils down to it.
 


Face The Facts said:
I asked before where he said it, and in the article you supplied (and others people have tried to post similar) he says that he leaves the X's and O's to his coaches (which I agree with).

Now, if you are still following my line of argument, "some" people on here seem to take the liberty to imply he doesn't understand the X's and O's that much. Like... "The other team was really our-scheming us but PJ isn't an X's and O's guy so he didn't know how to handle that".

In the end it's not worth arguing about.



On a separate note, I think you have often questioned if PJ even tried to win in year 1 (year zero) and in his speech today he said he doesn't. You can watch the first half of his speech here.
You can start at 28:40 of the video for the payoff. (you were right).


<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


(Yes, I watched the whole 32 minutes).
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I can only speak for myself, but I never said or thought PJ didn’t understand Xs and Os. He is a B1G HC, that would be ridiculous. I only said he said the words “I’m not an Xs and Os guy” in response to your post. I don’t recall exactly when and I’m not interested in looking through presser transcripts to find it. A couple others in the thread have also stated they recall this statement and a while back (during year 0, likely) there was a huge discussion on GH about it.

As for not caring about Wins in year zero - that too wasn’t my theory, but something PJ had said.

Seriously, since my 5 month retreat I have made an effort to not bash PJ on here nearly as much as I had previously. I’ve even been quite positive toward his potential to succeed here. However, it’s impossible to achieve that effort with what some consider a rip on PJ. It’s cult like.



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Spoofin said:
I can only speak for myself, but I never said or thought PJ didn’t understand Xs and Os. He is a B1G HC, that would be ridiculous. I only said he said the words “I’m not an Xs and Os guy” in response to your post. I don’t recall exactly when and I’m not interested in looking through presser transcripts to find it. A couple others in the thread have also stated they recall this statement and a while back (during year 0, likely) there was a huge discussion on GH about it.

As for not caring about Wins in year zero - that too wasn’t my theory, but something PJ had said.

Seriously, since my 5 month retreat I have made an effort to not bash PJ on here nearly as much as I had previously. I’ve even been quite positive toward his potential to succeed here. However, it’s impossible to achieve that effort with what some consider a rip on PJ. It’s cult like.



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I think it's possible to not like a coach but still believe he's the right guy for the job. (I believe that's where you are at).
There seem to be others in the Twin Cities who feel that way.
 

Just a quick comparison on the offense over the past five seasons
  • 2018 passing 209, rushing 171, total offense 380, penalties 3.9, points 28.9
  • 2017 passing 126, rushing 182, total offense 309, penalties 3.3, points 22.1
  • 2016 passing 174, rushing 184, total offense 357, penalties 6.8, points 29.3
  • 2015 passing 215, rushing 144, total offense 359, penalties 5.6, points 22.5
  • 2014 passing 142, rushing 216, total offense 357, penalties 5.3, points 28.4
The 2018 offense had the second highest point total per game, and the highest total offense per game of the past five seasons. The eye test to me? The offense was creative, got the ball into playmakers hands, and was fun to watch.
 

Face The Facts said:
I think it's possible to not like a coach but still believe he's the right guy for the job. (I believe that's where you are at).
There seem to be others in the Twin Cities who feel that way.
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Might be some Patriots fans that feel that way about their coach too

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Spoofin said:
I can only speak for myself, but I never said or thought PJ didn’t understand Xs and Os. He is a B1G HC, that would be ridiculous. I only said he said the words “I’m not an Xs and Os guy” in response to your post. I don’t recall exactly when and I’m not interested in looking through presser transcripts to find it. A couple others in the thread have also stated they recall this statement and a while back (during year 0, likely) there was a huge discussion on GH about it.

As for not caring about Wins in year zero - that too wasn’t my theory, but something PJ had said.

Seriously, since my 5 month retreat I have made an effort to not bash PJ on here nearly as much as I had previously. I’ve even been quite positive toward his potential to succeed here. However, it’s impossible to achieve that effort with what some consider a rip on PJ. It’s cult like.



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Since it would be impossible for me to prove someone never said something and it would be possible to prove someone did say something, I’m going to rely on you to prove it
 

Spoofin said:
Whether I am smart or not, that isn’t what I said. I have no clue whether he “pays attention” to that aspect or not. FtF said folks on here said PJ isn’t an Xs and Os guy and I corrected him that<b> PJ himself has said he isn’t an Xs and Os guy. </b>That’s just a fact. Seriously, you Fleck defenders can see a slight in anything.


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Okay. Post and article or a video saying that. It is impossible for me to prove a negative
 


Pompous Elitist said:
Well, I could be wrong but I recall PJ stating Robb’s defense was schematically sound and paraphrasing this but he may have said he didn’t have the guys to run it - too young, too little talent. Now, maybe he was running cover for his buddy, or maybe he agreed with everything Robb was doing but felt the need to sacrifice him to appease the fans or his boss or light a fire under the team. It’s possible the best Xs and Os coaches are simply the guys that recognize both what their guys are good and bad at and similarly what their opponents are good and bad at, with a dash of a knack for guessing right more than guessing wrong, recruiting good players, and teaching solid execution and fundamentals. Despite all the non-standardized lingo between coaches and variety in formations football isn’t that complicated when it boils down to it.
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Well Kill has also said they haven’t really changed the defense since they switched coordinators.

So I don’t know what to tell you. He might just be talking randomly to appease the media
 


Some guy said:
Well I listed 3 offensive guys. Thought you were smart. My bad.
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Since you’re smart you understand football consists of more than offense. You probably also understand Kirk is running the offense, not PJ.
 

Some guy said:
This thread is about offense moron
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Settle down, PJ's Bobo.

Nobody says that PJ doesn't "pay attention" to Xs & Os, nor that he doesn't know anything about it. He has said (I remember hearing him say it) that he's not primarily an X/O guy, and I didn't take it to mean that he's ignorant of how football works, or that he's just drifting in the ozone, with no idea what his coaches are doing.

I understood him to mean that his coaching success won't be built on micromanaging the tactical side of the game, but on other things - things like high-level management, recruiting talent, inspiring the troops, repeating trademarked catchphrases, etc.
 

some coaches are more hands-on than others. Some head coaches effectively act as their own OC or DC and do the actual play-calling during games. (Zimmer with Vikes, etc.)

Other HC's are more of the CEO type. they oversee the process and have input, but the Coordinators handle the bulk of the X's and O's work, and the coordinators do the actual play-calling during games.

I think that is what people mean about Fleck and the X's and O's. He is not calling plays during games. he may have input - he may make suggestions, but I do not think that Fleck is running up to Kirk and going "run toss power trap 37-X twist" on the next play.

so, from this point of view, he is not as directly involved with game plans and play-calling as some other coaches. There is nothing wrong with that. each coach has a system that they are comfortable with. the "CEO" type coaches generally deal with big-picture stuff - when to call time-outs, going for it on 4th down, on-side kicks, etc. And by not being directly involved with play-calling, the CEO coach is free to go back and forth to consult or confer with the OC or DC during the game, depending on what's happening.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
some coaches are more hands-on than others. Some head coaches effectively act as their own OC or DC and do the actual play-calling during games. (Zimmer with Vikes, etc.)

Other HC's are more of the CEO type. they oversee the process and have input, but the Coordinators handle the bulk of the X's and O's work, and the coordinators do the actual play-calling during games.

I think that is what people mean about Fleck and the X's and O's. He is not calling plays during games. he may have input - he may make suggestions, but I do not think that Fleck is running up to Kirk and going "run toss power trap 37-X twist" on the next play.

so, from this point of view, he is not as directly involved with game plans and play-calling as some other coaches. There is nothing wrong with that. each coach has a system that they are comfortable with. the "CEO" type coaches generally deal with big-picture stuff - when to call time-outs, going for it on 4th down, on-side kicks, etc. And by not being directly involved with play-calling, the CEO coach is free to go back and forth to consult or confer with the OC or DC during the game, depending on what's happening.
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There is a wonderful illustration of successful coach's not calling plays:

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That's Kiffin stopping Saban from calling a timeout ... the result of the play is a touchdown.
 

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