Pitino

[Mick Turition]

Northwestern has NEVER made the NCAA tournament. Nebraska has always been lousy and joined the Big10 for football reasons. Ditto for Penn State. Rutgers sucks at everything and happily grabbed the Big10 invitation. Guess which teams and ONLY which teams Pitino managed to finish in front of this year?

 

[Dano564]

The team is barely even starting to build.
He's had one class of recruits so far (and he was behind the eightball for that)? And the class he inherited, didn't see send them all packing except for one player (was it Buggs?).

Look at who his seniors and juniors are next year. That's what you can still thank Tubby for (except for the ones he brought in himself (King I guess).

 

[cjbfbp]

Northwestern has NEVER made the NCAA tournament. Nebraska has always been lousy and joined the Big10 for football reasons. Ditto for Penn State. Rutgers sucks at everything and happily grabbed the Big10 invitation. Guess which teams and ONLY which teams Pitino managed to finish in front of this year?

Actually, they didn't finish in front of Northwestern and at this moment there remains a possibility that they won't finish ahead of Nebraska either.

 

[ruppertflywheel]

Years 4 and 5 will be the tell tale sign. You have to give him 5 years.

 

[ethomasp31]

The team is barely even starting to build.
He's had one class of recruits so far (and he was behind the eightball for that)? And the class he inherited, didn't see send them all packing except for one player (was it Buggs?).

Look at who his seniors and juniors are next year. That's what you can still thank Tubby for (except for the ones he brought in himself (King I guess).

A couple of things....first Buggs was already here. Secondly, I think he came in the same year as Chris Collins, and the Northwestern program is in a lot better shape with young players than the Gophers right now. You can complain about what Tubby left Pitino all you want, but Pitino has left Pitino in a lot worse shape than Tubby left Pitino. I'm not saying we should fire Pitino....but it isn't going as well as some people on here are making it out. He's been the coach for two years and I think when he was hired two years ago, no one would have expected us to be this bad this year with such bleak hopes for next year. I hope next years class shows better than this years did or it will be time to start to panic.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Years 4 and 5 will be the tell tale sign. You have to give him 5 years.

There were people calling for our last coach's head before he got through his fifth year, and he had a couple of NCAA tournament berths in his first three years.

 

[ethomasp31]

There were people calling for our last coach's head before he got through his fifth year, and he had a couple of NCAA tournament berths in his first three years.

They will for Pitino also. I think Pitino will win here though.....he needs better recruits....hopefully the next couple of classes are good.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

There were people calling for our last coach's head before he got through his fifth year, and he had a couple of NCAA tournament berths in his first three years.

There were a lot of other issues and the on-the-court performance vs. expectations was poor. Tubby was (and is) a mess.

Pitino - I think you look at where you are in a couple of years, with a look to current recruiting at that time..

These first two years were good opportunities to make the tourney - but in both they looked like a bubble team, probably slightly on the wrong side of it, before the season began. Would have been nice from a PR perspective to have made it once, but not the end of the world.

Now a question, though, is how much risk does he accept with players. The acceptable level from his perspective may have gotten jacked up due to a relatively rough season this year.

 

[mcal24]

http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?59982-Before-you-give-up-on-Pitino

Also, guess who is one of four teams to never win the Big Ten tournament? I would like to be an elite program, hopefully we'll get there someday, but it's not like Minnesota is a historically great college bball program.

 

[bga1]

There were people calling for our last coach's head before he got through his fifth year, and he had a couple of NCAA tournament berths in his first three years.

Who? Not many that's for sure.

This is just a really, really crazy conversation to be having in year 2. This has been a lousy season- no doubt. But perhaps coach Pitino's greatest enemy is the fact that he got the 25 wins last year and made everyone -including the players on the club- the idea that this team would be really good. I'll admit I thought we'd win 10-11 Big Ten games before the year started. It turns out that the talent is average at best and the early losses proved too much for this team to overcome.

And by the way those two NCAA seasons were just marginally different than this year in team performance. A couple of wins....

It's a big disappointment, this year. Now the building starts with the coach's own players. Give it a little time if you want a good program.

 

[ethomasp31]

Who? Not many that's for sure.

This is just a really, really crazy conversation to be having in year 2. This has been a lousy season- no doubt. But perhaps coach Pitino's greatest enemy is the fact that he got the 25 wins last year and made everyone -including the players on the club- the idea that this team would be really good. I'll admit I thought we'd win 10-11 Big Ten games before the year started. It turns out that the talent is average at best and the early losses proved too much for this team to overcome.

And by the way those two NCAA seasons were just marginally different than this year in team performance. A couple of wins....

It's a big disappointment, this year. Now the building starts with the coach's own players. Give it a little time if you want a good program.

I'm not so upset about having a bad year. We lost a lot of games we could have won, and honestly, the team didn't quit on him which speaks well for Pitino. Should we have been better, yeah but it happens, it's one year.

What I'm more concerned about is how bleak next year looks. I agree Tubby didn't leave a great situation, but most coaches coming in two years ago were in the same boat. While many of you like to rip Hollins, Mattheiu, Walker and even EE, they were a huge part of the team and will not be easy to replace. We have an empty cupboard and that is concerning. If next years class looks good a year from now....there won't be any fire Pitino talk. But if not and we don't sign Coffey, there will be a lot of people bitching. It would be nice to see his program start to turn a corner.....hopefully we start seeing it next year.

 

[Dano564]

Well, here's the deal.
No one is going to fie a coach after two seasons unless things are really messed up.
Are things really messed up? No. Not from what we can tell.
So no sense doing anything about it yet.

Next year end of year they can analyze where they are at.
Will it be better? Probably not.
But at that point we'll know who the freshman coming in for 2016-17 are and we'll know how the freshman and sophomores are doing. At that point you can start to envision what's going to happen despite a down year which I see happening next year.

Regarding NW. I'm not sure what they are doing, but having less talented JR's and SR's might be an advantage because you wipe the slate cleaner faster.
This season was still driven by Tubby's talent (except King and Matthiau).

I say let's visit this again in 365 days to see how things look and then again in 730.

 

[Skage]

Let's relax a bit.
Disappointing year - yes.
But a little under a year ago, this forum was worried how long we could keep Coach Pitino.
We need more athletisism (have you watched the three highlight options from the last game that play at The Barn? These used to have put back dunks and monster blocks in the choices to pick from. But not this year.

The good news is Richard didn't throw his players under the bus and they kept playing for him. I admire that approach.

I think Coach will get it done and going through these tough times will only make him a better coach.

 

[bga1]

I'm not so upset about having a bad year. We lost a lot of games we could have won, and honestly, the team didn't quit on him which speaks well for Pitino. Should we have been better, yeah but it happens, it's one year.

What I'm more concerned about is how bleak next year looks. I agree Tubby didn't leave a great situation, but most coaches coming in two years ago were in the same boat. While many of you like to rip Hollins, Mattheiu, Walker and even EE, they were a huge part of the team and will not be easy to replace. We have an empty cupboard and that is concerning. If next years class looks good a year from now....there won't be any fire Pitino talk. But if not and we don't sign Coffey, there will be a lot of people bitching. It would be nice to see his program start to turn a corner.....hopefully we start seeing it next year.

It's going to hurt to lose those guys. Chances are we won't have a center that scores like Mo, or a kid that gets up the floor like lil Dre or a guy that shoots it like Andre. By the stats we will lose about half our points and half our minutes out of the players you mention. There will probably be 6 new guys- could be 7. Maybe the center will be a better defensive player than Mo. Perhaps Dorsey will also provide that defensive mindset. Mason already does. Maybe we will be a bigger more physical team. Perhaps returning players will come in bigger and better. Maybe we will have two or three guys come in and play like Mason has this year. If we start out next year with Dorsey, Mason, Morris, King and Konate- how much worse are we really?

For whatever reason, I don't think Pitino was every able to adapt a number of the players to what he wanted to do defensively. I am hoping that this next team becomes what this team hasn't been- a better defensive squad which I think will start with a more physical presence on the inside. Maybe next year's team will do some things differently than this team did and maybe it might even catch a few breaks something this team almost never did - save for the MSU game.

 

[bga1]

Let's relax a bit.
Disappointing year - yes.
But a little under a year ago, this forum was worried how long we could keep Coach Pitino.
We need more athletisism (have you watched the three highlight options from the last game that play at The Barn? These used to have put back dunks and monster blocks in the choices to pick from. But not this year.

The good news is Richard didn't throw his players under the bus and they kept playing for him. I admire that approach.

I think Coach will get it done and going through these tough times will only make him a better coach.

If such a statistic were kept I would guess that we are the team that dunked the least and got dunked on the most in the Big Ten this year. Our forte was forcing turnovers and decent shooting. Physical and athletic play- not so much.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

This season was still driven by Tubby's talent (except King and Matthiau).

...most frequent starters were your "except" guys King and Matthiau (sic)... but add to that Morris.. and when not Morris, then Mason.. both also brought in by Pitino.

Then you had Dre Hollins, a star player anyone would like to have, and then the center position, where Pitino chose to bench EE this year in favor of Walker.

So.. while 'it was tubby's players' has some merit, Pitino certainly had his fingerprint on this year's roster more than King and Mathieu.

 

[bga1]

...most frequent starters were your "except" guys King and Matthiau (sic)... but add to that Morris.. and when not Morris, then Mason.. both also brought in by Pitino.

Then you had Dre Hollins, a star player anyone would like to have, and then the center position, where Pitino chose to bench EE this year in favor of Walker.

So.. while 'it was tubby's players' has some merit, Pitino certainly had his fingerprint on this year's roster more than King and Mathieu.

I think that's fair. But to put the roster in perspective it was Tubby players plus guys that Pitino could get to sign within about 6 months of taking the job. Morris' recruitment came 12 months in. The first year is really a scramble for any coach. A guy that goes from high D1 to another might bring in some nice players who follow him but Pitino was not going to bring in many from his list of FIU prospects. The class we see come in next fall is the indicator of what he can do here. Let's hope it's good.

 

[DoubleB]

Let's relax a bit.
Disappointing year - yes.
But a little under a year ago, this forum was worried how long we could keep Coach Pitino.
We need more athletisism (have you watched the three highlight options from the last game that play at The Barn? These used to have put back dunks and monster blocks in the choices to pick from. But not this year.

The good news is Richard didn't throw his players under the bus and they kept playing for him. I admire that approach.

I think Coach will get it done and going through these tough times will only make him a better coach.

i dont think Richard has the team as a unit, they actually quit on him several times this season. From a guy who sits near the parents at the games, all the looks the players give their parents is almost laughable.
Joey King rolling his eyes after he opasses coach on the sideline, Mo looking up at his folks when they came to the game. Saw EE really struggle today with his parents at the game abnd he scores the first bucket and gets pulled and never sees the floor again. DeAndre with all his facial expressions when not directly looking at the coach.

And i am pretty sure Richard has said some things about his players that didnt really sound like he had their backs.

but all this points to a coach that lost these kids a while ago. remember they really only lost 1 player from last years team and as a group they all went backwards this season.

plus add to that the legal issues of pne player under his tenure and another one up and quitting just a few games into the year, doesn't give a lot of hope for the program.

lets hope his next class is better

 

[jamiche]

Who? Not many that's for sure.

This is just a really, really crazy conversation to be having in year 2. This has been a lousy season- no doubt. But perhaps coach Pitino's greatest enemy is the fact that he got the 25 wins last year and made everyone -including the players on the club- the idea that this team would be really good. I'll admit I thought we'd win 10-11 Big Ten games before the year started. It turns out that the talent is average at best and the early losses proved too much for this team to overcome.

And by the way those two NCAA seasons were just marginally different than this year in team performance. A couple of wins....

It's a big disappointment, this year. Now the building starts with the coach's own players. Give it a little time if you want a good program.

Twenty five wins is terribly misleading. Maybe five of the eight B1G wins were worth discussing, two preseason wins were meaningful and the NIT semifinal and final games were against good competition. The rest of the wins were scrimmages.

The NCAA seasons were significantly different in both tone and outcome. Those teams weren't world beaters but they were above average. This season has been Monson like.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

I think that's fair. But to put the roster in perspective it was Tubby players plus guys that Pitino could get to sign within about 6 months of taking the job. Morris' recruitment came 12 months in. The first year is really a scramble for any coach. A guy that goes from high D1 to another might bring in some nice players who follow him but Pitino was not going to bring in many from his list of FIU prospects. The class we see come in next fall is the indicator of what he can do here. Let's hope it's good.

Absolutely (re: first year+ recruiting).

In late summer/early fall of 2016 we'll have seen the 2015-16 team, have a good idea of who's in the 2016 recruiting class and a good idea of key targets and their recruitment status for 2017.. the recruiting will tell a lot and be very important, including from a PR perspective if 2015-16 is pretty rough on the court.

 

[scools12]

Some on here had Pitino using Minnesota as a stepping stone to another job before his first practice. 25 wins and a NIT win in year one and he is the new savior. 2nd year a disappointment and the savior's first year was misleading and hope may already be lost.

Funny wasn't reading any of that after the Michigan St. win.

 

[builtbadgers]

Iam sure my tag line does not endear to many but i was told i earned it and it was suggested. So here is two cents from someone who was in the college game for 50 years. Do not PANIC ! Building something great takes a great deal of good time and proper work. Mid January of 2000 an awful lot of Badger fans wanted to fire Dick Bennett but the powers that be stayed the course and the result was a final 4. That regime left behind Kirk Penney, Mike Wilkinson, Alando Tucker and Devin Harris recruited by Tony Bennett were on board after Brad Soderburgh the interim was not renewed. They hit a grand slam with coach Ryan, the rest is 14 years of excellence. There Bennetts had a couple of very tough years at Washington State but stayed the course by installing a culture. The pre approval of Tony taking over was in the succession plan and he won at a place no one wins at, WSU. At UVA he was given a 5 year deal and everyone was all in. now look where they are. Let Pitino do his job. It comes with no promise of success . you have to be very fortunate to hit an absolute gold mine like BENNETT but time will tell. The rewards follow a long period of hard work. If it does not give you a sweet 16 by year 5 then you change. That change would include the AD. will be pulling for you. you all have a wonderful community. Incidentally, the Bennetts won at WSU with horrible facilities and won at UW with very good facilities and at UVA with the very best facilities. Kids these day like nice things. they do not even know who Oscar Robertson was much less Jim Brewer.

 

[tinyarch]

i dont think Richard has the team as a unit, they actually quit on him several times this season. From a guy who sits near the parents at the games, all the looks the players give their parents is almost laughable.
Joey King rolling his eyes after he opasses coach on the sideline, Mo looking up at his folks when they came to the game. Saw EE really struggle today with his parents at the game abnd he scores the first bucket and gets pulled and never sees the floor again. DeAndre with all his facial expressions when not directly looking at the coach.

And i am pretty sure Richard has said some things about his players that didnt really sound like he had their backs.

but all this points to a coach that lost these kids a while ago. remember they really only lost 1 player from last years team and as a group they all went backwards this season.

plus add to that the legal issues of pne player under his tenure and another one up and quitting just a few games into the year, doesn't give a lot of hope for the program.

lets hope his next class is better

A lot of subjective thought on your part dubs. EE is one of the great whiners to wear a Gopher uniform. He has no one but himself to blame for where he ended this season. Pitino gave him all sorts of opportunities at the front end of the season and EE simply didn't produce. Truthfully, we had a number of kids that played below their potential with EE and lil 'Dre taking the lead.

You are correct that there was a psychological problem with this team. The problem is that it wasn't the coaches. They don't play the games. I'm not sure what it was. Perhaps it was a group of seniors who had unrealistic thoughts about their future basketball careers and they just played for themselves rather than as a team. Thinking that they needed to prove something to scouts may have led to focus on stuff that was out of their control rather than just playing basketball for the love of the game.

Like you, I can make unsubstantiated and subjective speculation about the situation. In the end, the only ones who know are the kids and coaches in the locker room. I think that is what Coach Pitino was getting at in his comments about what matters in regard to expectations. Something was off in that locker room. What it is only the folks in that locker room know. We had one kid kicked off for smoking pot. One kid left because he was homesick. Another kid assaulted a woman. And who knows all the other private family issues that came up with other players.

If your speculation is correct, it says more about the kids and their immaturity than it says about Pitino. For the most part, Pitino was very positive with this crew. Our previous coach threw kids under the bus on multiple occasions. The only thing I recall this year is when lil dre brought up a comment from coach that was privately stated and lil dre made it public. Not surprisingly, lil dre lost his starting spot after that comment.

There was something amiss, but I don't see it as Pitino being the problem other than he may have given the kids too long of a leash to run with.

 

[tinyarch]

Iam sure my tag line does not endear to many but i was told i earned it and it was suggested. So here is two cents from someone who was in the college game for 50 years. Do not PANIC ! Building something great takes a great deal of good time and proper work. Mid January of 2000 an awful lot of Badger fans wanted to fire Dick Bennett but the powers that be stayed the course and the result was a final 4. That regime left behind Kirk Penney, Mike Wilkinson, Alando Tucker and Devin Harris recruited by Tony Bennett were on board after Brad Soderburgh the interim was not renewed. They hit a grand slam with coach Ryan, the rest is 14 years of excellence. There Bennetts had a couple of very tough years at Washington State but stayed the course by installing a culture. The pre approval of Tony taking over was in the succession plan and he won at a place no one wins at, WSU. At UVA he was given a 5 year deal and everyone was all in. now look where they are. Let Pitino do his job. It comes with no promise of success . you have to be very fortunate to hit an absolute gold mine like BENNETT but time will tell. The rewards follow a long period of hard work. If it does not give you a sweet 16 by year 5 then you change. That change would include the AD. will be pulling for you. you all have a wonderful community. Incidentally, the Bennetts won at WSU with horrible facilities and won at UW with very good facilities and at UVA with the very best facilities. Kids these day like nice things. they do not even know who Oscar Robertson was much less Jim Brewer.

Good comments, although you don't touch on something that the folks who question Pitino might want to address. Both Bennett and Ryan paid their dues in the UW system at Stevens Point and Platteville. They worked out their systems in a very tough WIAC conference where they were winners and brought that disciplined teaching style into the D1 ranks at UW Madison. Pitino is the son of a great coach. He was an assistant for a number of years, but he only has 3 years of head coaching experience. The jury is still out on how good of a coach young Pitino is. Will he follow in the line of the Bennett family or...will he follow in the line of coach Ray Meyer's son...Joey at Depaul or Bobby Knights son? We just don't know. My hope is that, like the Bennett family, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. But...we don't yet know.

 

[Holy Man]

A lot of subjective thought on your part dubs. EE is one of the great whiners to wear a Gopher uniform. He has no one but himself to blame for where he ended this season. Pitino gave him all sorts of opportunities at the front end of the season and EE simply didn't produce. Truthfully, we had a number of kids that played below their potential with EE and lil 'Dre taking the lead.

You are correct that there was a psychological problem with this team. The problem is that it wasn't the coaches. They don't play the games. I'm not sure what it was. Perhaps it was a group of seniors who had unrealistic thoughts about their future basketball careers and they just played for themselves rather than as a team. Thinking that they needed to prove something to scouts may have led to focus on stuff that was out of their control rather than just playing basketball for the love of the game.

Like you, I can make unsubstantiated and subjective speculation about the situation. In the end, the only ones who know are the kids and coaches in the locker room. I think that is what Coach Pitino was getting at in his comments about what matters in regard to expectations. Something was off in that locker room. What it is only the folks in that locker room know. We had one kid kicked off for smoking pot. One kid left because he was homesick. Another kid assaulted a woman. And who knows all the other private family issues that came up with other players.

If your speculation is correct, it says more about the kids and their immaturity than it says about Pitino. For the most part, Pitino was very positive with this crew. Our previous coach threw kids under the bus on multiple occasions. The only thing I recall this year is when lil dre brought up a comment from coach that was privately stated and lil dre made it public. Not surprisingly, lil dre lost his starting spot after that comment.

There was something amiss, but I don't see it as Pitino being the problem other than he may have given the kids too long of a leash to run with.

College sports are definitely a head game, but I don't see this year's issues as primarily psychological. They were physical. We had a point guard that was way undersized for the B1G, we had a power forward that was too thin for the position, and we had centers who were not mobile enough to be effective defenders. Add in the really terrible defense played much of the season, and you have a year of disappointment.

Telling for me about Richard will be if he eyes players who can play the positions they need to play. Clearly, Konate has the size and mobility to be at least a good B1G center. If his skills advance, chalk one up for Pitino. I'm not sure if Gaston has the strength to be an excellent power forward in the B1G or not, but at least physically, he's in the right direction. What burned us most this year was not having a reliable rebounding big guy. Hopefully, he's got a beefy Juco in the wings somewhere. It's not an accident that our best years in the last decade were when Mbakwe was playing. he brought strength and athleticism under the basket, which is required to win consistently in this conference.

 

[station19]

Telling for me about Richard will be if he eyes players who can play the positions they need to play. Clearly, Konate has the size and mobility to be at least a good B1G center. If his skills advance, chalk one up for Pitino. I'm not sure if Gaston has the strength to be an excellent power forward in the B1G or not, but at least physically, he's in the right direction. What burned us most this year was not having a reliable rebounding big guy. Hopefully, he's got a beefy Juco in the wings somewhere. It's not an accident that our best years in the last decade were when Mbakwe was playing. he brought strength and athleticism under the basket, which is required to win consistently in this conference.

Reid Travis would have helped.

 

[Goldy Gopher]

I'm not so upset about having a bad year. We lost a lot of games we could have won, and honestly, the team didn't quit on him which speaks well for Pitino. Should we have been better, yeah but it happens, it's one year.

What I'm more concerned about is how bleak next year looks. I agree Tubby didn't leave a great situation, but most coaches coming in two years ago were in the same boat. While many of you like to rip Hollins, Mattheiu, Walker and even EE, they were a huge part of the team and will not be easy to replace. We have an empty cupboard and that is concerning. If next years class looks good a year from now....there won't be any fire Pitino talk. But if not and we don't sign Coffey, there will be a lot of people bitching. It would be nice to see his program start to turn a corner.....hopefully we start seeing it next year.

I'm excited for next year and think the team will finish with a better conference record next year and with quality additions with the 3 open scholarships could even be a tournament team. Hollins is a good player and we will miss his shooting, Mathieu has been better the last couple weeks but was horrible for most of this season and took a big step backward from his JR year, Mo has some good offensive skill but has trouble finishing through contact, is improved defensively but still average at best, EE brings some energy but has been replaced by Konate since about midway through the B1G season. The thing that I don't think enough people factor in is the incoming recruits are the type of players Pitino needs to run his system while the only Senior who kind of fit into the system was Mathieu and he just had a horrible season.

 

[Holy Man]

Reid Travis would have helped.

You have resurrected my bitterness. I need some happy thoughts.

 

[builtbadgers]

It is always better to have cut your teeth in the hyper competitive WIAC. We can go back further on Bennett. He was so respected as a high school coach that college coaches went to his clinics ! The whole idea of my post was that it is too early to know about Pitino. I used the Bennetts as a example of patience being exercised, something in very short supply nowadays. Interesting that Dick Bennett made Tony a Manager on that 2000 UW staff, not a assistant. There is a certain humility in that way of doing things.

 

[Bad Gopher]

It is always better to have cut your teeth in the hyper competitive WIAC. We can go back further on Bennett. He was so respected as a high school coach that college coaches went to his clinics ! The whole idea of my post was that it is too early to know about Pitino. I used the Bennetts as a example of patience being exercised, something in very short supply nowadays. Interesting that Dick Bennett made Tony a Manager on that 2000 UW staff, not a assistant. There is a certain humility in that way of doing things.

I'm totally in line with what you're saying. Time will tell if it was too much too soon for Richard. We can't forget that he made a radio out of a coconut at FIU, and last year's Gopher squad overachieved. There's not a coach in the business who hasn't had a disappointing and underachieving team - including this year for Tim Miles, who has had as humble and patient a career progression as anyone.