Pitino and the state of the program

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Former Goofer said:
Sleeping giant?

For the most part the "giants" in the NCAA have already been decided. Duke, Kentucky, etc that have built up their reputation over decades are the "giants" and that will most likely never change. The Gophers will never reach that level.

We could become a good destination but a "giant"? Just no.
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Did I say sleeping giant?
 

I'm ready for Amir Coffey to consistently be the best player on the floor. To be honest, he was awful today until the Gophers got down by 20 in the second half. He's got to be mentally locked in and aggressive from the opening tip. He did nothing in the first half, other than commit 3 fouls.

Your best players have to play their best if you have any chance to win in conference play, point blank. Amir was atrocious today. Murphy wasn't great, but at least he gave effort. Coffey has to play like a first-team All Big Ten player if the Gophers want to do anything with the last 7 games before the Big Ten Tournament, it's as simple as that.

It's not Pitino's fault that his best players were a no-show when the game mattered today. Look yourself in the mirror as players, be accountable for a bad day and make up for it at Nebraska.
 

NWMetroGopherFan said:
I'm ready for Amir Coffey to consistently be the best player on the floor. To be honest, he was awful today until the Gophers got down by 20 in the second half. He's got to be mentally locked in and aggressive from the opening tip. He did nothing in the first half, other than commit 3 fouls.

Your best players have to play their best if you have any chance to win in conference play, point blank. Amir was atrocious today. Murphy wasn't great, but at least he gave effort. Coffey has to play like a first-team All Big Ten player if the Gophers want to do anything with the last 7 games before the Big Ten Tournament, it's as simple as that.

It's not Pitino's fault that his best players were a no-show when the game mattered today. Look yourself in the mirror as players, be accountable for a bad day and make up for it at Nebraska.
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Cant agree more! You have to be kidding me about coffey! Most of our road games hes a no show. Do we
 

NWMetroGopherFan said:
I'm ready for Amir Coffey to consistently be the best player on the floor. To be honest, he was awful today until the Gophers got down by 20 in the second half. He's got to be mentally locked in and aggressive from the opening tip. He did nothing in the first half, other than commit 3 fouls.

Your best players have to play their best if you have any chance to win in conference play, point blank. Amir was atrocious today. Murphy wasn't great, but at least he gave effort. Coffey has to play like a first-team All Big Ten player if the Gophers want to do anything with the last 7 games before the Big Ten Tournament, it's as simple as that.

It's not Pitino's fault that his best players were a no-show when the game mattered today. Look yourself in the mirror as players, be accountable for a bad day and make up for it at Nebraska.
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After six years of its not Pitino's fault that players don't perform I will disagree, getting the most out of your players is what coaching is all about, he's got decent talent and has done nothing with it, they have gotten worse as the season progresses, yes it is Pitino's fault for whatever reason, I sure have no clue, maybe when everything is taken into consideration he is just a bad coach.
 



Former Goofer said:
Sleeping giant?

For the most part the "giants" in the NCAA have already been decided. Duke, Kentucky, etc that have built up their reputation over decades are the "giants" and that will most likely never change. The Gophers will never reach that level.

We could become a good destination but a "giant"? Just no.
Click to expand...

Look at Michigan State pre Izzo.
Look at Virgina. Bennett has turned them into top 5 team every year
UNLV became one for a minute with Tark.

Examples that came from the top of my head. The right coach can pull it off.

Football, Clemson was a nobody until they hired their current coach.
 

jovs said:
After six years of its not Pitino's fault that players don't perform I will disagree, getting the most out of your players is what coaching is all about, he's got decent talent and has done nothing with it, they have gotten worse as the season progresses, yes it is Pitino's fault for whatever reason, I sure have no clue, maybe when everything is taken into consideration he is just a bad coach.
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That's the rub.
 

Former Goofer said:
Sleeping giant?

For the most part the "giants" in the NCAA have already been decided. Duke, Kentucky, etc that have built up their reputation over decades are the "giants" and that will most likely never change. The Gophers will never reach that level.

We could become a good destination but a "giant"? Just no.
Click to expand...

I agree (mostly) with your last statement but the "giants" can change. There was no bigger giant for decades than UCLA but I don't think they can be called one anymore. Kentucky, Kansas, and North Carolina have, as you've said, built their reputations over decades and continue to be top contenders most years across different coaches. Duke's great period of success has been under one coach; before him the great years were sporadic. It's possible that they could slide out of the giant category in the extended period after Coach K retires the way UCLA gradually did after Wooden. Houston frequently was a power house under Guy Lewis but they've barely been heard from since until Kelvin Sampson recently resurrected the program.
 

Izzo didn't turn the program around- he improved it. But Heathcote had won a national championship and had been to 5 of the previous 6 NCAA tournaments.

Virginia- Bennett has been amazing but that program has a higher floor because of the talent base in the region.
Prior to Bennett they had been to the tournament half the time since 1980.

UNLV was all Tark but we know he cheated big time.

It is really, really tough to turn a program around that has been mediocre for 40 years. The best turnaround jobs I have seen of such a program is obviously the combination of Bennett and Ryan and of course Coach K and Duke. Unless you want to count Dan Monson and Gonzaga.... :):)

Even with Duke, Bill Foster prior to Coach K had been to three straight NCAAs...

Minnesota? We have been to the NCAAs 11 times in our history and 4 were vacated. The job can be done here- but it is tough. As I write this post and consider the history of other programs, I think that either sticking with Pitino or perhaps going to Fred Hoiberg might be the way to go. I don't think we can get Musselman. Perhaps Hoiberg would be the shot in the arm for 6-7 years that gets the program going and he brings up a great assistant that can take it over? I have previously said I think Hoiberg is too short term of a fix but maybe that scenario would work. I thought that would work with Tubby, but obviously it didn't. Tubby had weak assistant coaches for whatever reason.
 



To me sleeping giant means a program with that has great resources, facilities, support, fan base, recruiting region but has been dormant and lying down for decades but could be woken up by the right coach.
 

bga1 said:
Izzo didn't turn the program around- he improved it. But Heathcote had won a national championship and had been to 5 of the previous 6 NCAA tournaments.

Virginia- Bennett has been amazing but that program has a higher floor because of the talent base in the region.
Prior to Bennett they had been to the tournament half the time since 1980.

UNLV was all Tark but we know he cheated big time.

It is really, really tough to turn a program around that has been mediocre for 40 years. The best turnaround jobs I have seen of such a program is obviously the combination of Bennett and Ryan and of course Coach K and Duke. Unless you want to count Dan Monson and Gonzaga.... :):)

Even with Duke, Bill Foster prior to Coach K had been to three straight NCAAs...

Minnesota? We have been to the NCAAs 11 times in our history and 4 were vacated. The job can be done here- but it is tough. As I write this post and consider the history of other programs, I think that either sticking with Pitino or perhaps going to Fred Hoiberg might be the way to go. I don't think we can get Musselman. Perhaps Hoiberg would be the shot in the arm for 6-7 years that gets the program going and he brings up a great assistant that can take it over? I have previously said I think Hoiberg is too short term of a fix but maybe that scenario would work. I thought that would work with Tubby, but obviously it didn't. Tubby had weak assistant coaches for whatever reason.
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On UVA, sure about the region but his players up to this point have come from all over. Going forward will reflect the region as he is hauling elite Carolina kids and a DC kid and even a Virginia kid. They will just keep getting better. From 1953 until 2010 they had one outright ACC title. They were significantly under .500 in the conference, just like us. Since he got there, with a brand new Arena they have 3 outright ACC titles, 2 ACC tourney titles. He has won 70 % of his ACC games and over the last 5 years is actually 10 games better than Duke UNC ! He woke the the sleeping giant and in his words that was one of the reasons he found the job attractive. Are we a sleeping giant ?
 

builtbadgers said:
On UVA, sure about the region but his players up to this point have come from all over. Going forward will reflect the region as he is hauling elite Carolina kids and a DC kid and even a Virginia kid. They will just keep getting better. From 1953 until 2010 they had one outright ACC title. They were significantly under .500 in the conference, just like us. Since he got there, with a brand new Arena they have 3 outright ACC titles, 2 ACC tourney titles. He has won 70 % of his ACC games and over the last 5 years is actually 10 games better than Duke UNC ! He woke the the sleeping giant and in his words that was one of the reasons he found the job attractive. Are we a sleeping giant ?
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Not sleeping. We are in a coma.
 

builtbadgers said:
On UVA, sure about the region but his players up to this point have come from all over. Going forward will reflect the region as he is hauling elite Carolina kids and a DC kid and even a Virginia kid. They will just keep getting better. From 1953 until 2010 they had one outright ACC title. They were significantly under .500 in the conference, just like us. Since he got there, with a brand new Arena they have 3 outright ACC titles, 2 ACC tourney titles. He has won 70 % of his ACC games and over the last 5 years is actually 10 games better than Duke UNC ! He woke the the sleeping giant and in his words that was one of the reasons he found the job attractive. Are we a sleeping giant ?
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I have been hoping to see it since the 60s and when Musselman got here- I thought we were going to win forever. :) He got me firmly hooked.

Today the area has far better talent than back then, although we generated the semi annual big man back then. So, with the fact that we now have the facilities, there is local talent and we are the only D1 in the state- it is possible. However, until the locals see and believe that winning can happen here or until some of them decide to create their own legacy, it's going to be tough. It will take coaching, patience and yes a little luck to get it done. Oturu and Gabe are nice building blocks right now for Pitino or whoever is the next coach. Just 3-4 years of consecutive success and I think we could be a strong program for a long time.

So yes- it is possible.
 




builtbadgers said:
On UVA, sure about the region but his players up to this point have come from all over. Going forward will reflect the region as he is hauling elite Carolina kids and a DC kid and even a Virginia kid. They will just keep getting better. From 1953 until 2010 they had one outright ACC title. They were significantly under .500 in the conference, just like us. Since he got there, with a brand new Arena they have 3 outright ACC titles, 2 ACC tourney titles. He has won 70 % of his ACC games and over the last 5 years is actually 10 games better than Duke UNC ! He woke the the sleeping giant and in his words that was one of the reasons he found the job attractive. Are we a sleeping giant ?
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In Virginia you are also competing with a ton of basketball universities that are all right there. In Minnesota the closest competition is a 3 hour drive away. The right coach will get the Minnesota kids.
 
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bga1 said:
Izzo didn't turn the program around- he improved it. But Heathcote had won a national championship and had been to 5 of the previous 6 NCAA tournaments.

Virginia- Bennett has been amazing but that program has a higher floor because of the talent base in the region.
Prior to Bennett they had been to the tournament half the time since 1980.

UNLV was all Tark but we know he cheated big time.

It is really, really tough to turn a program around that has been mediocre for 40 years. The best turnaround jobs I have seen of such a program is obviously the combination of Bennett and Ryan and of course Coach K and Duke. Unless you want to count Dan Monson and Gonzaga.... :):)

Even with Duke, Bill Foster prior to Coach K had been to three straight NCAAs...

Minnesota? We have been to the NCAAs 11 times in our history and 4 were vacated. The job can be done here- but it is tough. As I write this post and consider the history of other programs, I think that either sticking with Pitino or perhaps going to Fred Hoiberg might be the way to go. I don't think we can get Musselman. Perhaps Hoiberg would be the shot in the arm for 6-7 years that gets the program going and he brings up a great assistant that can take it over? I have previously said I think Hoiberg is too short term of a fix but maybe that scenario would work. I thought that would work with Tubby, but obviously it didn't. Tubby had weak assistant coaches for whatever reason.
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Unlike Izzo, though, Heathcote did have a dry period. After the national championship, his teams made the tournament only twice (two consecutive years with the Scott Skiles led team) over a 10 year period. Izzo never had a losing season and hasn't missed a tournament since his second season.

The possibility you mention with Hoiberg is exactly what happened with Iowa State. His successor, while maybe not quite as good as Hoiberg, has continued to keep them relevant. We don't need to be a dynasty. If we can get to an Iowa State level of consistency, that would be plenty good enough in my view. Even an Iowa level would be better.

What I don't understand is why anyone could still have faith that Pitino can get us to that level of consistency. If the team won 5 of its last 7 games (or even 4), I'd say he earned the right to continue coaching the team because that would be a good enough rebound and he has produced at least 20 wins in half of his seasons. I have almost no faith that this team could finish that well though.
 

ethomasp31 said:
In Virginia you are also competing with a ton of basketball universities that are all right there. In Minnesota the closest competition is a 3 hour drive away. The right coach will get the Minnesota kids.
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There are 14 D1 programs in Virginia. You lose your best guys to Duke, UNC and Kentucky but there is not a reason to identify 3 star kids that you have as 4 stars like UW has done with Illinois kids and Ohio kids. UVA has done it with California (Perrantes ) State of Washington (Joe Harris ) now doing great in the NBA. New Zealand, Italy, New York (Jerome was a 3 star when offered ) Hunter was a 4 star but had missed his junior year with injury and they did beat Villanova for the Philly kid. Then they redshirted him, was not a starter last year and as a sophomore is now a lottery pick. You have to win some. Kyle Guy was a Mcdonalds all american and player of the year in Indiana but they got him early, way before he blew up. Brogdon was a 4 star out of Georgia that they evaluated as a 5 star. Redshirt, became the only ACC player ever to be defensive player of the year and player of the year. He was a all american who became NBA rookie of the year. At Washington State the examples are endless of 2 star kids that became the number 4 team ib the country at one point. Here is one, Klay Thompson who was a 3 star when offered, became a 4 and had his only power 6 offer from WSU and accepted based on his dad thinking that Bennett would be the perfect coach for Klay. This post is not meant to highlight Bennett, it is meant to highlight what a great coach can do here. Plus to have several kids getting their masters, playing in the NBA and never getting in trouble ! It can be done here and it can be done the right way. Families and kids are smart, they do their research on what coaches and schools are best for their kid. You identify the kids early that you want, develop relationships . UVA and UW lose their high profile prospects all the time, they drop out when they get better offers but through the relationship building the word spreads and you grow it steadily, establishing exactly what you stand for and never sacrificing character. It can be done here. UW was a a dumpster fire but they built 20 tears of greatness the same way. The most difficult part is finding that one in a school history coach.
 

Duke unc Kentucky take the best, even from uva. Hmmm.
 


BarnBurner said:
Duke unc Kentucky take the best, even from uva. Hmmm.
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The best players from the state of Virginia almost never go to UVA. The real shift is now getting truly great players out of Carolina. The 19-20-21 classes will be represented by kids from Carolina and they will be Kyle Guy level kids that they got really early. It is a myth that you build a power from within the borders of a state . in addition, fans generally over rate players from their own state anyways. Not counting the one and dones, who anyone can see are great prospects, most fans have not only not players from their own state go against other great players, but they have not seen the other wonderful players from other states. That always strikes me as odd since those other players may be better and fit what your trying to do. I would never sucker from some star rating either, even as a fan as i have done dozens and dozens of pre scout on kids that became huge college winners, some misses too ! Pre scout is where you watch for a coach and ten recommend that they come for themselves or not. The U has not really missed on that many local kids that were realistic. They have done a far worse job of finding a great coach.
 

NWMetroGopherFan said:
I'm ready for Amir Coffey to consistently be the best player on the floor. To be honest, he was awful today until the Gophers got down by 20 in the second half. He's got to be mentally locked in and aggressive from the opening tip. He did nothing in the first half, other than commit 3 fouls.

Your best players have to play their best if you have any chance to win in conference play, point blank. Amir was atrocious today. Murphy wasn't great, but at least he gave effort. Coffey has to play like a first-team All Big Ten player if the Gophers want to do anything with the last 7 games before the Big Ten Tournament, it's as simple as that.

It's not Pitino's fault that his best players were a no-show when the game mattered today. Look yourself in the mirror as players, be accountable for a bad day and make up for it at Nebraska.
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If coaches aren't responsible for how their players play, it seems kind of silly to pay them all that money. I am sure we can find people to do it for less.
 

builtbadgers said:
To me sleeping giant means a program with that has great resources, facilities, support, fan base, recruiting region but has been dormant and lying down for decades but could be woken up by the right coach.
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You underestimate the dysfunction of the leadership and faculty at UMN...
 

MennoSota said:
You underestimate the dysfunction of the leadership and faculty at UMN...
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I know it has been terrible but your right probably understated by me. The AD'S here are as bad as any i have seen over a 50 year period. I do think Coyle will prove to be the best.
 

builtbadgers said:
I know it has been terrible but your right probably understated by me. The AD'S here are as bad as any i have seen over a 50 year period. I do think Coyle will prove to be the best.
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It goes much deeper than ADs. The inter-departmental politics and fight for power is waged with the effort to never let the athletic department gain too much power. The progressive feminist movement at UMN desires a failed men's program. They have been successful for decades.
 

builtbadgers said:
I know it has been terrible but your right probably understated by me. The AD'S here are as bad as any i have seen over a 50 year period. I do think Coyle will prove to be the best.
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If we dont make the tourney and Pitino returns for next sesson, would your opinion of Coyle be diminished?
 

ltf said:
If we dont make the tourney and Pitino returns for next sesson, would your opinion of Coyle be diminished?
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Yes. Just my opinion of course. To me, if you did not get a top 3 finish by year 6 you never will because Ohio State and Indiana will be moving up quickly, most likely Illinois and the top 4 are not going down. I Did not count Maryland as their freshman class may never see their junior year.
 

cjbfbp said:
Unlike Izzo, though, Heathcote did have a dry period. After the national championship, his teams made the tournament only twice (two consecutive years with the Scott Skiles led team) over a 10 year period. Izzo never had a losing season and hasn't missed a tournament since his second season.

The possibility you mention with Hoiberg is exactly what happened with Iowa State. His successor, while maybe not quite as good as Hoiberg, has continued to keep them relevant. We don't need to be a dynasty. If we can get to an Iowa State level of consistency, that would be plenty good enough in my view. Even an Iowa level would be better.

What I don't understand is why anyone could still have faith that Pitino can get us to that level of consistency. If the team won 5 of its last 7 games (or even 4), I'd say he earned the right to continue coaching the team because that would be a good enough rebound and he has produced at least 20 wins in half of his seasons. I have almost no faith that this team could finish that well though.
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4 wins and he stays and he would have earned it. Less and he probably is toast.
 

MennoSota said:
It goes much deeper than ADs. The inter-departmental politics and fight for power is waged with the effort to never let the athletic department gain too much power. The progressive feminist movement at UMN desires a failed men's program. They have been successful for decades.
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Your paranoid feminist conspiracy theory is a joke. The U has lacked key leadership partnerships for years but most of it has been between the various presidents and the AD's. A great example of this was Donna Shalala hiring Barry Alvarez @ WI. which started a very successful era in their sports program. It literally is weak minded to blame " the progressive feminist movement " - whatever you think that is ? If you are referring to the investigations those could always be handled better but failures occurred on many levels .
 

GringaGopher said:
Your paranoid feminist conspiracy theory is a joke. The U has lacked key leadership partnerships for years but most of it has been between the various presidents and the AD's. A great example of this was Donna Shalala hiring Barry Alvarez @ WI. which started a very successful era in their sports program. It literally is weak minded to blame " the progressive feminist movement " - whatever you think that is ? If you are referring to the investigations those could always be handled better but failures occurred on many levels .
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Perhaps, but name any other major University that required both a men's and women's AD and two ice arenas just for the women.
You underestimate the political power of the feminist party at UMN.
 


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