Pete Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson among players reinstated by MLB

[BleedGopher]

Per ESPN:

In a historic, sweeping decision, baseball commissioner Rob Manfred on Tuesday removed Pete Rose, "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and other deceased players from Major League Baseball's permanently ineligible list.

The all-time hit king and Jackson -- both longtime baseball pariahs stained by gambling, seen by MLB as the game's mortal sin -- are now presumably eligible for election into the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York.

Manfred ruled that MLB's punishment of banned individuals ends upon their deaths.

"Obviously, a person no longer with us cannot represent a threat to the integrity of the game," Manfred wrote in a letter to attorney Jeffrey M. Lenkov, who petitioned for Rose's removal from the list Jan. 8. "Moreover, it is hard to conceive of a penalty that has more deterrent effect than one that lasts a lifetime with no reprieve.

Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe HOF-eligible as MLB lifts ban

The all-time hit king and Jackson -- both longtime baseball pariahs stained by gambling, seen by MLB as the game's mortal sin -- are now presumably eligible for election into the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.

www.espn.com

Win Twins!!

 

[GophersInIowa]

Shoeless Joe should have never been ineligible to begin with.

I'm fine with Rose getting a chance now. If he hadn't been such a POS, the ban probably would have been lifted a long time ago.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Leave Pete out and simply let the argument rise and fall from year to year. Good for clicks

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

They should either pull all of the Barry Bonds memorabilia out of the HOF or put him in.

He's the best player of all time and it's not close. I saw this on youtube the other day: If you were to take away Barry Bonds of all of his stats from his 7 MVP Seasons he would still have 440 homers and 359 stolen bases which no other player has.

 

[BleedGopher]

They should either pull all of the Barry Bonds memorabilia out of the HOF or put him in.

He's the best player of all time and it's not close. I saw this on youtube the other day: If you were to take away Barry Bonds of all of his stats from his 7 MVP Seasons he would still have 440 homers and 359 stolen bases which no other player has.

That's an insane Bonds stat. Crazy.

Win Twins!!

 

[howeda7]

Shoeless Joe should have never been ineligible to begin with.

I'm fine with Rose getting a chance now. If he hadn't been such a POS, the ban probably would have been lifted a long time ago.

Dan Patrick has said there's "other stuff" besides the betting on baseball that will keep Pete Rose out that is not really public knowledge. Not sure if that's just "he was a jack-@ss to the media" or something worse. I sense the later.

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

Dan Patrick has said there's "other stuff" besides the betting on baseball that will keep Pete Rose out that is not really public knowledge. Not sure if that's just "he was a jack-@ss to the media" or something worse. I sense the later.

Entirely possible it's something else, but HBO did a Pete Rose doc and there was stuff in there alleging he had relationships with underage girls, which he didn’t totally deny.

 

[howeda7]

Entirely possible it's something else, but HBO did a Pete Rose doc and there was stuff in there alleging he had relationships with underage girls, which he didn’t totally deny.

That's probably it. Yikes.

 

[ShushPush]

So, death absolves people from life decisions. Who knew? Put everything in a trust, people. You never know when the sins of the past will bring a windfall.

 

[Ope3]

They should either pull all of the Barry Bonds memorabilia out of the HOF or put him in.

He's the best player of all time and it's not close. I saw this on youtube the other day: If you were to take away Barry Bonds of all of his stats from his 7 MVP Seasons he would still have 440 homers and 359 stolen bases which no other player has.

Unlike Rose, Bonds has already been on the HoF Ballot multiple times.

BBWAA Voted. Nay.

 

[Ope3]

So, death absolves people from life decisions. Who knew? Put everything in a trust, people. You never know when the sins of the past will bring a windfall.

I see it more as Time Served as opposed to being "absolved".

It doesn't guarantee squat either, depending on if he ever gets on the BBWAA Ballot or by a Veterans Committee, either body would have to vote him in.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Unlike Rose, Bonds has already been on the HoF Ballot multiple times.

BBWAA Voted. Nay.

No, I know. My post is more a condemnation of the BBWAA. They let cheaters in the hall like Gaylord Perry. they let massive aholes in the Hall like Ty Cobb, and they have Bonds memorabilia throughout the Hall.

 

[Ope3]

Dan Patrick has said there's "other stuff" besides the betting on baseball that will keep Pete Rose out that is not really public knowledge. Not sure if that's just "he was a jack-@ss to the media" or something worse. I sense the later.

PURE SPECULATION, but I have always thought Dowd/Giamati & MLB had way more on the baseball gambling itself aspect.

I find it unfathomable that he wasn't also gambling while he was a player only. I also don't believe he only bet on his own team.

 

[Ope3]

No, I know. My post is more a condemnation of the BBWAA. They let cheaters in the hall like Gaylord Perry. they let massive aholes in the Hall like Ty Cobb, and they have Bnds memorabilia throughout the Hall.

I think you have a point on the dual standard with Perry. Right or wrong though, Gaylord's accomplishments didn't rewrite the record book.

Bonds, McGwire & Sosa on the other hand made a complete mockery of it and displaced names such as Ruth/Maris, Aaron & Mays from the top of the charts.

Aholes, if they didn't let those guys into Cooperstown it would be be a pretty small party every year. Probably single digits of living HoFers that pass that criteria, though not as legendary as Cobb in that aspect

 

[Gophers1992]

If Pete gets in and Bonds and Clemens are left out I have officially lost all faith in the BBWAA.

 

[Gophers1992]

Also, I’m not typically one to defend Curt Schilling, but if Pete is voted in it is hard for me to reconcile Schilling being left out.

 

[Ope3]

If Pete gets in and Bonds and Clemens are left out I have officially lost all faith in the BBWAA.

The Rocket without the juice isn't any more prolific than Johan Santana.

 

[Gophers1992]

The Rocket without the juice isn't any more prolific than Johan Santana.

Well I am a proponent of Santana in the hall as well, but if putting up 139 career WAR is as simple as some juice then everyone should have done it.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

The Rocket without the juice isn't any more prolific than Johan Santana.

I am no seam head but seeing rocket pitch live was always a must see at the dome.

 

[Ope3]

Well I am a proponent of Santana in the hall as well, but if putting up 139 career WAR is as simple as some juice then everyone should have done it.

The career arc was somehow rejuvenated from his last 4 years in Boston before heading to Toronto.

Pitchers don't just suddenly regain that much form in their mid30s without subliminal help.
.

Roger Clemens Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roger Clemens. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

Just look at his baseball cards:





His fitness program also kept that status into his mid40s.

 

[Ope3]

Shoeless Joe should have never been ineligible to begin with.

It's pretty much accepted Joe took the dough.

Maybe he was too ignorant to know the ramifications or tried anyway, but I just don't see how that goes unpunished.

Having said that, under the presumption it was a "Lifetime Ban" and his life ended decades ago, I would vote Jackson into Cooperstown.

I"ve thought that ever since I heard Ted Williams discuss it with Bob Costas on his radio show.

 

[Gophers1992]

The career arc was somehow rejuvenated from his last 4 years in Boston before heading to Toronto.

Pitchers don't just suddenly regain that much form in their mid30s without subliminal help.
.

Roger Clemens Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roger Clemens. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

Just look at his baseball cards:

View attachment 37012

View attachment 37013

His fitness program also kept that status into his mid40s.

No doubt his career was enhanced by the juice, but he’s a hall of famer if he retires at 30.

And I despise the guy.

 

[Ope3]

No doubt his career was enhanced by the juice, but he’s a hall of famer if he retires at 30.

That's not exactly the same thing.

If he keeps pitching beyond 30 but without juice, his overall stats would have declined. Less than half as many Cy Young Awards & All Star games as well as no WS Rings.

If he petered out at say 230 Ws overall, it becomes quite questionable that he gets Enshrined. When he left the Red Sox he was at 192 Ws. Pitchers of that era had to do a lot more than that to get to Cooperstown.

It's too questionable, IMO. I don't give the cheater the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Unregistered User]

Fuck pete rose

That is all

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I think you have a point on the dual standard with Perry. Right or wrong though, Gaylord's accomplishments didn't rewrite the record book.

Bonds, McGwire & Sosa on the other hand made a complete mockery of it and displaced names such as Ruth/Maris, Aaron & Mays from the top of the charts.

Aholes, if they didn't let those guys into Cooperstown it would be be a pretty small party every year. Probably single digits of living HoFers that pass that criteria, though not as legendary as Cobb in that aspect

I would have less of a problem with Cooperstown if they simply wiped them out of the record books.

I just don't get how you don't put the player in, but you display the Barry Bonds 756 homerun ball. They have the helmet her wore to tie Aaron at 755. The MLB (including MLB sportswriters who benefit from the MLB) rode the coattails of those cheaters to get popularity back. Their hands aren't clean. It could have been stopped immediately.

For me, it feels like the MLB and the MLB community all were complicit in performance enhancer drugs. It really feels like the getaway driver is testifying against the guy who held up the gas station. I don't think these players are victims, they made millions and they knew they were cheating. It more just makes me laugh at MLB. We live in a world where Harold Baines is in the Hall of Fame and Barry Bonds is not.

 

[Slim Tubby]

The MLB (including MLB sportswriters who benefit from the MLB) rode the coattails of those cheaters to get popularity back. Their hands aren't clean. It could have been stopped immediately.

For me, it feels like the MLB and the MLB community all were complicit in performance enhancer drugs.

Yup. Nobody benefited more from the PED era more than MLB themselves. They made billions of dollars and rejuvenated the entire sport by promoting the exploits of Bonds, McGuire and Sosa. Some would argue it's by far the greatest marketing campaign MLB has ever produced.

The 2017 Houston Astros literally cheated all of baseball - other teams, other players and certainly fans across the globe. In the record books, they are still recognized as the World Champions that season.

You're spot on with your take, Bob...MLB and the owners chose huge financial gains over protecting the "integrity" of their league. Put the stat worthy guys in the HOF with an asterisk on their plaques and let baseball fans pass their own judgement.

 

[atsgopher]

No, I know. My post is more a condemnation of the BBWAA. They let cheaters in the hall like Gaylord Perry. they let massive aholes in the Hall like Ty Cobb, and they have Bonds memorabilia throughout the Hall.

Most of the Stuff written about Cobb has recently been argued to be erroneous bullshit,

Especially the racism stuff.

Apparently there was a bunch of fictitious narratives passed on about him. Ty Cobb died having planned to file suit to prevent publication of one book bearing his name.

He came from a line of people that long stood up against the racist practices on the South (Grandfather and father). Cobb apparently long argued for inclusion of black ballers. There are quotes recently dug up of him supporting this position before his death.

So if say one had viewed, Ken Burns baseball, there is supposedly nothing accurate about him in it.

I have not personally verified, other then to view the reproduced quotes. However, The recent narrative does sound more compelling to me.

 

[Ope3]

I just don't get how you don't put the player in, but you display the Barry Bonds 756 homerun ball. They have the helmet her wore to tie Aaron at 755. The MLB (including MLB sportswriters who benefit from the MLB) rode the coattails of those cheaters to get popularity back. Their hands aren't clean. It could have been stopped immediately.

MLB could not stop it immediately. The MLB Players Union fought it for more than a decade before it was eventually collectively bargained.

Also the curators displaying the artifacts are not the ones Voting on enshrinement.

We live in a world where Harold Baines is in the Hall of Fame and Barry Bonds is not.

Yes, that is weird. I guess Bonds fell short on at least 3 of the criteria listed.

BBWAA ELECTION RULES | Baseball Hall of Fame

baseballhall.org

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

-----

I don't think Baines should have gotten in, but I guess if it helped Oliva obtain enshrinement, not all bad.

 

[Ope3]

If Pete gets in and Bonds and Clemens are left out I have officially lost all faith in the BBWAA.

In watching ESPN last night, the BBWAA will have no role at all on passing judgment on Rose. It will be a Veteran's Committee meeting in December 2027.

16 Members. He will need at least 12 Votes.

 

[atsgopher]

They should either pull all of the Barry Bonds memorabilia out of the HOF or put him in.

He's the best player of all time and it's not close. I saw this on youtube the other day: If you were to take away Barry Bonds of all of his stats from his 7 MVP Seasons he would still have 440 homers and 359 stolen bases which no other player has.

Do a bonds stat comparison with Babe Ruth.

Then his early years were dead ball era. No lights. The pitchers could legally throw spit balls. The bats were not nearly as nice.

Look at Ruth’s OPS. His record is sick. Don’t forget He owned the Scoreless pitching record

He completely changed Baseball; equivalent to maybe only Gretzky.

That does not preclude that ultimately Bonds could have been better; Point being, it most certainly is close.