Olson and Bush

[Indi1006]

Watching the game and I think that they are more athletic and much better pass blockers than Christensen and Bak.

 

[Dr.Don]

Watching the game and I think that they are more athletic and much better pass blockers than Christensen and Bak.

I am not gonna compare anyone because it was an entire game of excellent fundamentals by our OL what with zero holding penalties the entire game.

 

[Halsey Hall]

I am not gonna compare anyone because it was an entire game of excellent fundamentals by our OL what with zero holding penalties the entire game.

Hey Doc

Has there been a holding penalty all year?

Have a beer before you answer

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Watching the game and I think that they are more athletic and much better pass blockers than Christensen and Bak.

I thought the biggest difference in our pass blocking (compared to early in the year) has been our backs. Olson and Bush played well. I thought Christensen had been starting to play really well before he got injured (I thought he struggled early in the season). So I'm not sure how I would compare Tommy and Christensen. I do think Bush seems to be a better athlete than Bak.

 

[ncgo4]

Really good point about the backs. On two occasions I remember replays highlighting Cobb picking up a lineman or backer coming in on Nelson and stopping them from preventing a completed pass. I remember Limegrover talking about this in the spring as one of the critical roles and perhaps a weakness at the time for Minnesota's offense.

As we have expanded our offense a lot as the season has gone on, I suspect running back blocking has been one of the key enablers.

 

[BoneLakeMafia]

any idea why Bak didn't start? did I miss an injury?

 

[MaxyJR1]

any idea why Bak didn't start? did I miss an injury?

Concussion. Not sure if from the Indiana game or practice.

 

[wait!what?]

Watching the game and I think that they are more athletic and much better pass blockers than Christensen and Bak.

so you believe you are better at recognizing the talent than JK?

 

[Killjoy]

so you believe you are better at recognizing the talent than JK?

Of course he is. That is because Dr. Don has certified him as a GopherHole expert. Dr. Don doesn't give those out to everybody you know. In order to receive this honor you have to buy him a beer.

 

[honeygopher]

so you believe you are better at recognizing the talent than JK?

If we are not allowed to formulate our own opinions or share our thoughts what is the point of Gopherhole?

Your response could be used in response to any post.

 

[Indi1006]

so you believe you are better at recognizing the talent than JK?

Don't play this card very often but when you have played the game sometimes you have a bit more understanding about how things shake out relative to playing time. Bak and Christensen are both smart kids and the coaches might trust them more because of how bright they are even with what seems to me an obvious talent gap between them and Olson and Bush. Probably even more importantly, they both gained experience last year, too, and it's easy to keep penciling them in particularly with Olson just learning the center position. Happens all the time that maybe not quite the best player and/or athlete is on the field. Cobb is an example, maybe he would have had this same level of success last year if given the chance; I happen to think he would have. Or, maybe he actually didn't know the plays or the pass blocking assignments and that was legit why he didn't play. If you listen to him he's been pretty honest about his thought is nothing changed with him between last year and this other than opportunity. None of us know any of this stuff but if you think for a second that the best player always is the man who starts and plays the most, then you're naive. I just happen to think we're a better, more powerful, more athletic and better pass blocking line with Olson and Bush starting. I also do agree that the backs are doing a nice job. Cobb actually really had Bush's back on one play in particular against Penn St. where he was beaten cleanly and Cobb stepped up and hit the D lineman in the mouth.

 

[killme]

Don't play this card very often but when you have played the game sometimes you have a bit more understanding about how things shake out relative to playing time. Bak and Christensen are both smart kids and the coaches might trust them more because of how bright they are even with what seems to me an obvious talent gap between them and Olson and Bush. Probably even more importantly, they both gained experience last year, too, and it's easy to keep penciling them in particularly with Olson just learning the center position. Happens all the time that maybe not quite the best player and/or athlete is on the field. Cobb is an example, maybe he would have had this same level of success last year if given the chance; I happen to think he would have. Or, maybe he actually didn't know the plays or the pass blocking assignments and that was legit why he didn't play. If you listen to him he's been pretty honest about his thought is nothing changed with him between last year and this other than opportunity. None of us know any of this stuff but if you think for a second that the best player always is the man who starts and plays the most, then you're naive. I just happen to think we're a better, more powerful, more athletic and better pass blocking line with Olson and Bush starting. I also do agree that the backs are doing a nice job. Cobb actually really had Bush's back on one play in particular against Penn St. where he was beaten cleanly and Cobb stepped up and hit the D lineman in the mouth.

It's been clearly stated that his pass blocking in particular, along with other shortcomings, prevented Cobb from seeing the field earlier in his career. I'm pretty sure he said it.

As for the "best player," football is the ultimate team game. It's hard to succeed if all 11 guys aren't doing their jobs. Being able to trust a player to know his assignment and give a reasonable effort are often more important than talent.

 

[wait!what?]

Don't play this card very often but when you have played the game sometimes you have a bit more understanding about how things shake out relative to playing time. Bak and Christensen are both smart kids and the coaches might trust them more because of how bright they are even with what seems to me an obvious talent gap between them and Olson and Bush. Probably even more importantly, they both gained experience last year, too, and it's easy to keep penciling them in particularly with Olson just learning the center position. Happens all the time that maybe not quite the best player and/or athlete is on the field. Cobb is an example, maybe he would have had this same level of success last year if given the chance; I happen to think he would have. Or, maybe he actually didn't know the plays or the pass blocking assignments and that was legit why he didn't play. If you listen to him he's been pretty honest about his thought is nothing changed with him between last year and this other than opportunity. None of us know any of this stuff but if you think for a second that the best player always is the man who starts and plays the most, then you're naive. I just happen to think we're a better, more powerful, more athletic and better pass blocking line with Olson and Bush starting. I also do agree that the backs are doing a nice job. Cobb actually really had Bush's back on one play in particular against Penn St. where he was beaten cleanly and Cobb stepped up and hit the D lineman in the mouth.

I am going to guess that you typed a post or 2 about leidner being a better qb than nelson. amirite? to those folks I had the same response. jk knows the kids/talent

 

[dpodoll68]

Don't play this card very often but when you have played the game sometimes you have a bit more understanding about how things shake out relative to playing time.

I'm guessing that most people on this board have "played the game", myself included. Having "played the game" doesn't automatically give you any greater "understanding" than someone who hasn't.

If you listen to him he's been pretty honest about his thought is nothing changed with him between last year and this other than opportunity.

He probably honestly believes that, but the coaches know a lot more about football than he does. I'm certain they would tell quite a different story. If not, he would've been playing this much last year.

if you think for a second that the best player always is the man who starts and plays the most, then you're naive

The best players don't always start and play the most. That's why coaches lose their jobs a lot. Jerry Kill has never been fired in his life, an extreme rarity in the coaching profession. If he wants to continue to not be fired, he's going to always start and play the best players. On this team, right now, the best players are the ones starting and playing.

I just happen to think we're a better, more powerful, more athletic and better pass blocking line with Olson and Bush starting.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Don't labor under the assumption that it's anything more than your opinion, however. It doesn't carry any greater weight or validity because you "played the game".

 

[Indi1006]

"The best players don't always start and play the most. That's why coaches lose their jobs a lot. Jerry Kill has never been fired in his life, an extreme rarity in the coaching profession. If he wants to continue to not be fired, he's going to always start and play the best players. On this team, right now, the best players are the ones starting and playing."

This part of your post just isn't always true for many and varied reasons. If it's close many times they play the guy with experience over the more talented guy with less experience. Does that generate a better outcome or does it enable them to sleep better at night because they know what the kid with experience will do vs. more of an unknown? Perhaps the coaches think a kid is a pain in the rear so he sits while another less talented player plays, etc, etc, etc. It happens in every program to some extent I actually think it's funny when folks insist that the most "talented" players are always the ones who are on the field. Could Jack Lynn make more plays against the run this year than Hill, for example? I would guess so but Hill is their guy as a fifth year senior and the coaches choose to keep Lynn at MLB and to have him learn his trade behind Wilson. We'll see in two weeks Hill is going to get worked over by Wisconsin, but he'll be the guy and maybe for good reasons overall but I'd like for Lynn to get a shot against teams like Wisconsin, Iowa, etc. to play alongside Wilson; who as an aside has been mostly invisible the past two weeks.

 

[Dr.Don]

I'm guessing that most people on this board have "played the game", myself included. Having "played the game" doesn't automatically give you any greater "understanding" than someone who hasn't.



He probably honestly believes that, but the coaches know a lot more about football than he does. I'm certain they would tell quite a different story. If not, he would've been playing this much last year.



The best players don't always start and play the most. That's why coaches lose their jobs a lot. Jerry Kill has never been fired in his life, an extreme rarity in the coaching profession. If he wants to continue to not be fired, he's going to always start and play the best players. On this team, right now, the best players are the ones starting and playing.



That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Don't labor under the assumption that it's anything more than your opinion, however. It doesn't carry any greater weight or validity because you "played the game".

dpodoll, the beauty of GopherHole commentors is their "display of knowledge".

I have played the game, coached the game, reffed the game, and cheered the game. I still don't know anything near what our Coach Kill and Staff know. Let's all let them do their jobs that they are paid quite well to do, and enjoy the ride.

GO GOPHERS!!!

 

[dpodoll68]

This part of your post just isn't always true for many and varied reasons.

Yes, it is. The problem with your argument is that you're assuming the more talented player is always the better player.

If it's close many times they play the guy with experience over the more talented guy with less experience.

Yes, because he's the better player.

Does that generate a better outcome or does it enable them to sleep better at night because they know what the kid with experience will do vs. more of an unknown?

If he is more reliable, that makes him the better player.

Perhaps the coaches think a kid is a pain in the rear so he sits while another less talented player plays, etc, etc, etc.

If he is more reliable, that makes him the better player.

I actually think it's funny when folks insist that the most "talented" players are always the ones who are on the field.

Some may insist that, but I am not. I am advocating just the opposite, in fact.

Hill is their guy as a fifth year senior and the coaches choose to keep Lynn at MLB and to have him learn his trade behind Wilson.

Because Hill and Wilson are better players right now than Lynn.

We'll see in two weeks Hill is going to get worked over by Wisconsin, but he'll be the guy and maybe for good reasons overall but I'd like for Lynn to get a shot against teams like Wisconsin, Iowa, etc. to play alongside Wilson; who as an aside has been mostly invisible the past two weeks.

This is why Jerry Kill is paid a 7-figure salary and why you are posting on a message board.

 

[Dr.Don]

"This is why Jerry Kill is paid a 7-figure salary and why you are posting on a message board. "

dpodoll: With your permission, I would like to use this quote in more posts on GH


You also said, "Because Hill and Wilson are better players right now than Hill."

That confused me, but I am easily confused.

 

[Indi1006]

Yes, it is. The problem with your argument is that you're assuming the more talented player is always the better player.



Yes, because he's the better player.



If he is more reliable, that makes him the better player.



If he is more reliable, that makes him the better player.



Some may insist that, but I am not. I am advocating just the opposite, in fact.



Because Hill and Wilson are better players right now than Hill.



This is why Jerry Kill is paid a 7-figure salary and why you are posting on a message board.

The dynamics and politics within a football team are much more robust and complex than you either know about or are willing to entertain/admit. So you know that Hill is a better player than Lynn? You know that Cobb wouldn't have done what he is doing this year last year if he had gotten the chance? You know that Bak is a better player than Bush? You have no idea; no more than I know for sure that my opinions are correct. The only thing I'm certain of is you're that guy who is always the smartest one in the room whether you actually have your head up your arse, or not.

 

[Dr.Don]

The dynamics and politics within a football team are much more robust and complex than you either know about or are willing to entertain/admit. So you know that Hill is a better player than Lynn? You know that Cobb wouldn't have done what he is doing this year last year if he had gotten the chance? You know that Bak is a better player than Bush? You have no idea; no more than I know for sure that my opinions are correct. The only thing I'm certain of is you're that guy who is always the smartest one in the room whether you actually have your head up your arse, or not.

dpodoll came to me for a private diagnosis, because he knows I am a world renowned but retired proctologist. Indi, I can assure you there are lots of things up his arse, because so many people have told him to stick them there, but I found no evidence of his head up there anywhere.

And please believe me, I looked hard.

Just because he looked like this, does not make it a final diagnosis...

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/58073/

 

[dpodoll68]

The dynamics and politics within a football team are much more robust and complex than you either know about or are willing to entertain/admit.

Who said otherwise? Your "played the game" experience lends you zero insight whatsoever into the dynamics and politics of the 2013 University of Minnesota Golden Gopher football team. Sorry to break that to you.

So you know that Hill is a better player than Lynn? You know that Cobb wouldn't have done what he is doing this year last year if he had gotten the chance? You know that Bak is a better player than Bush? You have no idea; no more than I know for sure that my opinions are correct. The only thing I'm certain of is you're that guy who is always the smartest one in the room whether you actually have your head up your arse, or not.

It's a real-life case of Occam's razor. Does Jerry Kill want to win, or does he want to lose? Does playing better players or worse players increase his chances of winning? You must think Jerry Kill and staff are pretty stupid if they're willingly playing inferior players. Of course, we already know that you think you're smarter than the coaching staff because you're still making sure that Limegrover is doing his penance for something that happened 6 weeks ago.

 

[Indi1006]

Who said otherwise? Your "played the game" experience lends you zero insight whatsoever into the dynamics and politics of the 2013 University of Minnesota Golden Gopher football team. Sorry to break that to you.



It's a real-life case of Occam's razor. Does Jerry Kill want to win, or does he want to lose? Does playing better players or worse players increase his chances of winning? You must think Jerry Kill and staff are pretty stupid if they're willingly playing inferior players. Of course, we already know that you think you're smarter than the coaching staff because you're still making sure that Limegrover is doing his penance for something that happened 6 weeks ago.

We can break it down in one player; David Cobb. Had the other two RBs not gotten injured it was likely he woudn't have had this breakthrough. Would we have won four in a row with the other two playing; likely not. Is Cobb a better football player than Kirkwood or Williams, very likely yes. Do any of us know why he wasn't on the depth chart at the beginning of the year; no. Would there have been any malice by the coaching staff by going with their favorite RBs at the time vs. playing Cobb; most likely not. But, it is a perfect example of what I'm talking about here and it happens all the time; not that you will be able to admit same.

 

[dpodoll68]

Had the other two RBs not gotten injured it was likely he woudn't have had this breakthrough.

Someone got better when he got more practice reps, because more practice reps became available? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!!!

Would we have won four in a row with the other two playing; likely not.

Pointless theoretical exercise - absolutely no way to know.

Is Cobb a better football player than Kirkwood or Williams, very likely yes.

Yes - that's why he's playing the most of the three.

Do any of us know why he wasn't on the depth chart at the beginning of the year; no.

Yes, I do - the other players were better.

Would there have been any malice by the coaching staff by going with their favorite RBs at the time vs. playing Cobb; most likely not.

No. They would've been playing the best players, as they are still.

But, it is a perfect example of what I'm talking about here and it happens all the time

No, it isn't. It's a perfect example of how the better players were playing at the beginning of the season, and how the better players are playing now.

Why are you a Gopher fan if you think our coaches are so stupid, spiteful, and vindictive?

 

[Indi1006]

Someone got better when he got more practice reps, because more practice reps became available? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!!!



Pointless theoretical exercise - absolutely no way to know.



Yes - that's why he's playing the most of the three.



Yes, I do - the other players were better.



No. They would've been playing the best players, as they are still.



No, it isn't. It's a perfect example of how the better players were playing at the beginning of the season, and how the better players are playing now.

Why are you a Gopher fan if you think our coaches are so stupid, spiteful, and vindictive?

I vacillate between being irritated by you and feeling sorry for you because you're so ignorant. It's obvious that you're right and I'm wrong and whenever I disagree with your point of view I hate Kill and his coaches and really shouldn't be a Gopher fan. Good luck to you living in your own private little La-La land.

 

[dpodoll68]

I vacillate between being irritated by you and feeling sorry for you because you're so ignorant.

Translation: "You're right, and I can't refute it, so I'll make a pathetic attempt to misdirect by insulting you."

It's obvious that you're right and I'm wrong

I'm glad you can finally see that.

and whenever I disagree with your point of view I hate Kill and his coaches

Nope. That's made plainly obvious by the fact that most of your posts are spent picking apart every decision the coaching staff makes. My point of view has nothing to do with your clear hatred of the coaching staff.

and really shouldn't be a Gopher fan

Take stock of yourself as a Gopher fan for a moment. The team just won its 4th consecutive Big Ten game for the first time since the Nixon Administration. We are about to host Wisconsin with both teams 6 games over .500 for the first time since the Teddy Roosevelt Administration. And you started yet another thread to piss and moan about the coaching staff (specifically Limegrover). Let that sink in for a moment.

Good luck to you living in your own private little La-La land.

Hurts to be so wrong all of the time, I know. It's ok, li'l buddy.

 

[LBJ]

Hurts to be so wrong all of the time, I know.

He does know that it hurts to be wrong! From his own experience he knows it. He was wrong last week. I forgot what thread it happened in, but we celebrated it and he admitted it willingly.

I just had to give you a hard time, Dpo.

 

[corcoran1]

Being a better athlete is not the same thing as being a better player. In particular, not screwing up your assignment in football is a huge deal. Every play, 11 guys have a chance to blow the play with either a penalty or blown assignment. There is no other sport where consistent execution by everyone is as critical as it is in football. If 3 guys out of 11 do not know all of their assignments well, you have a chance to have a penalty or blown assignment on just about every drive, or multiple screw ups on every drive. A team has to be great to overcome that kind of handicap.
We are not close to the kind of extremely talented offensive or defensive team that we can make up for multiple blown assignments.
That philosophy also makes it hard for coaches to play guys who are really talented but do not take execution in practice seriously; they just do not trust them.

 

[killme]

dpodoll came to me for a private diagnosis, because he knows I am a world renowned but retired proctologist. Indi, I can assure you there are lots of things up his arse, because so many people have told him to stick them there, but I found no evidence of his head up there anywhere.

And please believe me, I looked hard.

Just because he looked like this, does not make it a final diagnosis...

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/58073/

Excellent! LMAO

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

We can break it down in one player; David Cobb. Had the other two RBs not gotten injured it was likely he woudn't have had this breakthrough. Would we have won four in a row with the other two playing; likely not. Is Cobb a better football player than Kirkwood or Williams, very likely yes. Do any of us know why he wasn't on the depth chart at the beginning of the year; no. Would there have been any malice by the coaching staff by going with their favorite RBs at the time vs. playing Cobb; most likely not. But, it is a perfect example of what I'm talking about here and it happens all the time; not that you will be able to admit same.

Cobb wasn't on the depth chart? Maybe some chart they didn't release, but Cobb has been getting touches all season (prior to any injury to Williams).

You might have a point with Kirkwood, but Cobb has been getting more touches than Williams all season (before any injury). Cobb has outperformed everyone and we've split carries less. I suppose you could make the argument that Cobb wouldn't have gotten touches this season unless Kirkwood got injured, but it looks like Cobb was #2 (ahead of Williams) all season.

So Cobb isn't really what you are talking about. Cobb is a guy who overtook the #2 RB spot (ahead of Williams), even though most of us were pretty impressed with Williams last season. That move seemed to happen behind the scenes and it was validated as a good decision by Cobb's production.

 

[killme]

Cobb wasn't on the depth chart? Maybe some chart they didn't release, but Cobb has been getting touches all season (prior to any injury to Williams).

You might have a point with Kirkwood, but Cobb has been getting more touches than Williams all season (before any injury). Cobb has outperformed everyone and we've split carries less. I suppose you could make the argument that Cobb wouldn't have gotten touches this season unless Kirkwood got injured, but it looks like Cobb was #2 (ahead of Williams) all season.

So Cobb isn't really what you are talking about. Cobb is a guy who overtook the #2 RB spot (ahead of Williams), even though most of us were pretty impressed with Williams last season. That move seemed to happen behind the scenes and it was validated as a good decision by Cobb's production.

It's been loosely tossed around by the media to make his story more entertaining. I think more accurately he wasn't on the two-deep to start fall practice. Can anyone help me on this?

I also pointed out to Iceland12 that I believe Cobb himself said he didn't get much playing time because of things such as pass blocking. I'm almost positive HE said it in an interview. That's why it's so great to hear him interview now, giving credit to everyone else instead of saying "look at me now that they finally realize how good I am." And, I get a little chub when he picks up a blitz and we complete a big pass.