Offering an equivalent experience

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EG#9

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This is not just about Nolan Winter, but about Chatman, Holloway, and Heide. Four Minnesota kids have had other Big Ten offers since Ben Johnson was hired and all four have chosen to go to another Big Ten school. The only rationale ever given for Ben Johnson getting this job was that he was going to be tremendous at keeping kids in Minnesota. You can argue whether that SHOULD be important or not, but you can't argue that there was something he had done in his tenure as an assistant coach that warranted a Big Ten head coaching job. So where has it gone wrong?

In recruiting the 2 most important questions you can answer for a recruit are (in some order) "Do you win?" and "How are you going to help me get to the NBA?". Kids (and their parent's, coaches, influencers) want to win and they all (at this level) think they have a shot at the league. Minnesota needed to hire someone who could answer at least one of those questions. Greg Gard just won a share of the Big Ten title and a had a fringe top 100 recruit go in the NBA lottery while Ben Johnson had a share of last place and I don't believe has ever coached an NBA draft pick (did recruit Daniel Oturu). If you can find Nolan Winter's interview he did with one of their fan sites after his official visit to Wisconsin, all he talked about was how important winning was to that school and how they constantly win.

This isn't just locally. Trent Pierce was someone Ben Johnson recruited hard. Dennis Gates took over at a Missouri program that was actually worse than Minnesota last year and won that recruiting battle despite Ben having a 6-8 month start in that recruitment. Gates could point to his winning ways as a head coach at Cleveland State as well as his recruiting and development of NBA players at Florida State.

Being the local school is an advantage, but it's an advantage in the same way immediate playing time is or style of play, or academics, or being a Nike school, or being in a conference with a better TV deal is. Some/all of those things come in to play, but they are very rarely going to override a coach that consistently wins and/or puts players in to the league. Local recruits are not rejecting Minnesota, they are rejecting its basketball program. Until the coach of the program can answer one or both of the two most important questions, the recruiting misses will be more frequent than the commits.
 

Simply have to prove it first.

To me the results of recruiting are still influenced predominantly by the stature of BJ as a hire and 2) the stature of the bball program at the time of his hire. There was
/is nothing for BJ to sell, except hope that he (as a first year head coach) can be a difference maker. BJ was set up for failure because he was a cheap hire who could placate the demands of the local basketball circuit, not because he could put MN immediately into prominence.

I was not happy about the hire for those reasons, but a year in and I’m actually very happy. I’m not from the Twin Cities and I don’t care if certain egos in certain suburbs are made content. BJ however, has done a great job recruiting nationally, and for that reason I have a ton of hope. I find it hilarious that the people who wanted him hired to recruit locally are now pushing a narrative (see the star tribune and KFAN) that he’s not doing enough.
 

Wisconsin just went 6 years without having an NBA draft pick. None in 2016-2021.
 

I agree with EG to this extent:

at this point, Ben does not have results to sell. He's selling hope, and he's selling the opportunity to come to MN and help change the program.

that pitch might appeal to some kids, but it's not going to appeal to other kids. some kids want to walk into a program that is an established winner. Fine, that's their choice.

But other kids might just be intrigued by the chance to come to MN and help elevate the program's stature. You accomplish that, and it's (IMHO) a bigger accomplishment than going to a good program and helping keep it good (or not making it worse).

Ben is trying to sell kids on accepting a challenge. hopefully he finds enough takers.

But - show me a kid who is unwilling to accept a challenge, and that's a kid I will have questions about.
 

EG#9 said:
This is not just about Nolan Winter, but about Chatman, Holloway, and Heide. Four Minnesota kids have had other Big Ten offers since Ben Johnson was hired and all four have chosen to go to another Big Ten school. The only rationale ever given for Ben Johnson getting this job was that he was going to be tremendous at keeping kids in Minnesota. You can argue whether that SHOULD be important or not, but you can't argue that there was something he had done in his tenure as an assistant coach that warranted a Big Ten head coaching job. So where has it gone wrong?

In recruiting the 2 most important questions you can answer for a recruit are (in some order) "Do you win?" and "How are you going to help me get to the NBA?". Kids (and their parent's, coaches, influencers) want to win and they all (at this level) think they have a shot at the league. Minnesota needed to hire someone who could answer at least one of those questions. Greg Gard just won a share of the Big Ten title and a had a fringe top 100 recruit go in the NBA lottery while Ben Johnson had a share of last place and I don't believe has ever coached an NBA draft pick (did recruit Daniel Oturu). If you can find Nolan Winter's interview he did with one of their fan sites after his official visit to Wisconsin, all he talked about was how important winning was to that school and how they constantly win.

This isn't just locally. Trent Pierce was someone Ben Johnson recruited hard. Dennis Gates took over at a Missouri program that was actually worse than Minnesota last year and won that recruiting battle despite Ben having a 6-8 month start in that recruitment. Gates could point to his winning ways as a head coach at Cleveland State as well as his recruiting and development of NBA players at Florida State.

Being the local school is an advantage, but it's an advantage in the same way immediate playing time is or style of play, or academics, or being a Nike school, or being in a conference with a better TV deal is. Some/all of those things come in to play, but they are very rarely going to override a coach that consistently wins and/or puts players in to the league. Local recruits are not rejecting Minnesota, they are rejecting its basketball program. Until the coach of the program can answer one or both of the two most important questions, the recruiting misses will be more frequent than the commits.
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A lot of words to again say that you don't like the hire. I think we go it. He's with us for at least a few more years so either get in the boat and row or start swimming to shore.

And my understanding was that the Gophers had backed off of Pierce a bit late this summer after the Betts commit and because they were still in pursuit of Winter.
 


Was Ben a surprising hire? Yes, he was. Has he shown he has potential? He has to me.
That's the best it can be at this point...he was hired without any head coaching experience.
I have not agreed with all his decisions but he has done more things well than I expected.
Coaching is hard. He will likely get five years to determine if he is worthy of future seasons.
Certainly, in year two the best course is to row the boat! We ain't gettin' a new guy anytime soon, EG#9
 

The previous posts haven't mentioned NIL money, which is now a more immediate factor than winning or getting to the NBA. From what I've read, the U is way behind other big schools in NIL money. If that's the case, Ben is at a substantial recruiting disadvantage.
 

EG#9 said:
This is not just about Nolan Winter, but about Chatman, Holloway, and Heide. Four Minnesota kids have had other Big Ten offers since Ben Johnson was hired and all four have chosen to go to another Big Ten school. The only rationale ever given for Ben Johnson getting this job was that he was going to be tremendous at keeping kids in Minnesota. You can argue whether that SHOULD be important or not, but you can't argue that there was something he had done in his tenure as an assistant coach that warranted a Big Ten head coaching job. So where has it gone wrong?

In recruiting the 2 most important questions you can answer for a recruit are (in some order) "Do you win?" and "How are you going to help me get to the NBA?". Kids (and their parent's, coaches, influencers) want to win and they all (at this level) think they have a shot at the league. Minnesota needed to hire someone who could answer at least one of those questions. Greg Gard just won a share of the Big Ten title and a had a fringe top 100 recruit go in the NBA lottery while Ben Johnson had a share of last place and I don't believe has ever coached an NBA draft pick (did recruit Daniel Oturu). If you can find Nolan Winter's interview he did with one of their fan sites after his official visit to Wisconsin, all he talked about was how important winning was to that school and how they constantly win.
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This is very likely true with top 50 kids. The portal has changed things. Most schools don’t take more than 2-3 recruits now unless it’s a total overhaul. Otherwise who didn’t think this hire was on potential? Good coaches will eventually win no matter if they can answer those two questions before they were hired. Every HC has to get their first job sometime.

EG#9 said:
This isn't just locally. Trent Pierce was someone Ben Johnson recruited hard. Dennis Gates took over at a Missouri program that was actually worse than Minnesota last year and won that recruiting battle despite Ben having a 6-8 month start in that recruitment. Gates could point to his winning ways as a head coach at Cleveland State as well as his recruiting and development of NBA players at Florida State.
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If you looked at Pierces schools we are a huge outlier. We were easily the furthest away. The rest weee local in a more local conference. We also landed Kayden Betts and we only have so many scholarship spots open for similar type players. I like that I see us in the running for kids where we aren’t the most likely fit. I also like us going against good coaches. It’s a positive sign that our staff is evaluating with other staffs who win and develop players.

EG#9 said:
Being the local school is an advantage, but it's an advantage in the same way immediate playing time is or style of play, or academics, or being a Nike school, or being in a conference with a better TV deal is. Some/all of those things come in to play, but they are very rarely going to override a coach that consistently wins and/or puts players in to the league. Local recruits are not rejecting Minnesota, they are rejecting its basketball program. Until the coach of the program can answer one or both of the two most important questions, the recruiting misses will be more frequent than the commits.
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Yes all those factors vary depending on the kid. A good staff will look at those when identifying who they will be spending their recruiting resources on. Also all staffs will have more missed than commits. Most staffs look to take 2-3 commits and year but they at least recruit double that amount.
 

From what we have seen and heard, not getting these kids isn’t from lack of effort. That in itself is an improvement. I think some patience is needed.
 



Holloway and Heide were gone before Ben ever took the job, and you know it. They each had both feet in the boats of MSU and Purdue for a long time. Ben wasn't really going to be able to change their mind, and he knew that.

Chatman was intrigued by the bright lights he saw at OSU and likely some NIL money. So be it. Also, Ben backed off for a variety of reasons, one being he got a commitment in Christie who he thinks has as much or more potential than Chatman.

Having just talked to a person in the know, Nolan truly was torn. He really liked Ben and his decision had nothing to do with picking Gard over Ben. Had it been that he would be at the U. He liked the WI campus, the idea of getting away from home but still being close enough for parents to see him play, and just as importantly was concerned with the U and guys who are likely returning at his position and that have signed. He knows that may likely impact his opportunities.

Ben will never bat 100% with local recruits - no school does. However, talk with anyone who is involved in the high school/AAU scene around here and Ben has kids, coaches and parents listening and considering the U.

In the end, I'll take a class like of Christie and Evans over two lower ranked kids from in-state any day. Combine them with the MN kids who are freshman and upper classman this year and that's a recipe for success. Bobby Jackson, Willie Burton and Trent Tucker are three of the best and most popular former players and they are not from MN. Who cares where they are from - win like the three of them did, playing with a couple of MN kids, and people will be happy.
 

was thinking about this.

not necessarily an apples-to-apples situation, but

the Gopher Volleyball team has two players who were each ranked as the #1 HS recruit in the country in their respective classes. The #1 recruit in the country, choosing MN. and it happened twice.

Same school - same campus - same 'urban area' that some suggest are drawbacks for recruiting.

the difference: Gopher VB is one of the top programs in the country, and their Coach is considered one of the best FB coaches in the world.

now, given the differences in the sports, I am not suggesting that the Gopher Basketball program will ever have a shot to land a #1 recruit in the country.

But, I think the point is this - establish a winning program, establish the coach's reputation, and that creates a lot of opportunities to improve recruiting.
 

A bunch of random thoughts.

First, I see a tremendous amount of pressure placed on HS kids to "go away to school". From peers, counselors, teachers and sometime even from parents. There is this assumption that going away helps them grow up. So to stay, I believe you need overwhelming reasons - and as SON points out with volleyball - a consistent National Championship contending team with a top 10 coach is why volleyball has success. Basketball has no such history.

Second, I think we have created an unfortunate situation where HS kids feel they can freely choose another school knowing that the Gophers will welcome them with open arms as a transfer. Part of that is our ever rebuilding under Pitino. Then Johnson's need to fill a roster. But man - we need to change this thinking. Come now as a freshman or never needs to be the normal path.

Finally, I find it refreshing that Johnson made his players better as the season went on and that he has gotten some reasonable looks from some national recruits as a result. That's promising. So I don't care much anymore where they come from as long as they can play and show proper behavior to represent the U in a positive manner.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
was thinking about this.

not necessarily an apples-to-apples situation, but

the Gopher Volleyball team has two players who were each ranked as the #1 HS recruit in the country in their respective classes. The #1 recruit in the country, choosing MN. and it happened twice.

Same school - same campus - same 'urban area' that some suggest are drawbacks for recruiting.

the difference: Gopher VB is one of the top programs in the country, and their Coach is considered one of the best FB coaches in the world.

now, given the differences in the sports, I am not suggesting that the Gopher Basketball program will ever have a shot to land a #1 recruit in the country.

But, I think the point is this - establish a winning program, establish the coach's reputation, and that creates a lot of opportunities to improve recruiting.
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"If you win, they will come" - Kevin Costner
 





Are school counselors really a thing these days?

I've seen a few mentions on here about school counselors possibly influencing kids. In my day, no one ever met with a counselor. Not that I know of, at least. Maybe i just didn't know.
 

EG#9 said:
This is not just about Nolan Winter, but about Chatman, Holloway, and Heide. Four Minnesota kids have had other Big Ten offers since Ben Johnson was hired and all four have chosen to go to another Big Ten school. The only rationale ever given for Ben Johnson getting this job was that he was going to be tremendous at keeping kids in Minnesota. You can argue whether that SHOULD be important or not, but you can't argue that there was something he had done in his tenure as an assistant coach that warranted a Big Ten head coaching job. So where has it gone wrong?

In recruiting the 2 most important questions you can answer for a recruit are (in some order) "Do you win?" and "How are you going to help me get to the NBA?". Kids (and their parent's, coaches, influencers) want to win and they all (at this level) think they have a shot at the league. Minnesota needed to hire someone who could answer at least one of those questions. Greg Gard just won a share of the Big Ten title and a had a fringe top 100 recruit go in the NBA lottery while Ben Johnson had a share of last place and I don't believe has ever coached an NBA draft pick (did recruit Daniel Oturu). If you can find Nolan Winter's interview he did with one of their fan sites after his official visit to Wisconsin, all he talked about was how important winning was to that school and how they constantly win.

This isn't just locally. Trent Pierce was someone Ben Johnson recruited hard. Dennis Gates took over at a Missouri program that was actually worse than Minnesota last year and won that recruiting battle despite Ben having a 6-8 month start in that recruitment. Gates could point to his winning ways as a head coach at Cleveland State as well as his recruiting and development of NBA players at Florida State.

Being the local school is an advantage, but it's an advantage in the same way immediate playing time is or style of play, or academics, or being a Nike school, or being in a conference with a better TV deal is. Some/all of those things come in to play, but they are very rarely going to override a coach that consistently wins and/or puts players in to the league. Local recruits are not rejecting Minnesota, they are rejecting its basketball program. Until the coach of the program can answer one or both of the two most important questions, the recruiting misses will be more frequent than the commits.
Click to expand...
Don't disagree with your premise or your points. However, you're leaving out an enormous factor when recruiting college athletes (or any other student).

The college experience (campus, atmosphere, city, climate) absolutely play a factor for young college athletes (and their parents). Not saying it's a bigger factor than the two you pointed out but it definitely plays a large role. The U of M is the 14th largest university (per undergraduate enrollment) and happens to be right in the middle of a very large metro area that happens to also be in a freezing climate part of the year. Campus is huge. The simple truth is that this college experience is not for every kid. Some will love it. Others, it's not for them.

It's amazing how much some Gophers faithful ignore this piece of the puzzle. Many of these kids have a lot of choices, and there are a ton of different schools offering different experiences. Some kids just want the experience of the proverbial college town. That's ok, the UofM just isn't for them.

Went to grad school at UMass, a polar opposite experience than BU or BC. Some Mpls kids just want something different, and this comes into play in this conversation.
 

NorCalGopher said:
Don't disagree with your premise or your points. However, you're leaving out an enormous factor when recruiting college athletes (or any other student).

The college experience (campus, atmosphere, city, climate) absolutely play a factor for young college athletes (and their parents). Not saying it's a bigger factor than the two you pointed out but it definitely plays a large role. The U of M is the 14th largest university (per undergraduate enrollment) and happens to be right in the middle of a very large metro area that happens to also be in a freezing climate part of the year. Campus is huge. The simple truth is that this college experience is not for every kid. Some will love it. Others, it's not for them.

It's amazing how much some Gophers faithful ignore this piece of the puzzle. Many of these kids have a lot of choices, and there are a ton of different schools offering different experiences. Some kids just want the experience of the proverbial college town. That's ok, the UofM just isn't for them.

Went to grad school at UMass, a polar opposite experience than BU or BC. Some Mpls kids just want something different, and this comes into play in this conversation.
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Thank you. It’s not that complicated. I moved here at 18 to get away from family. A lot of kids want to get away from home & technology makes it possible for you to still communicate and see your family more than any point in life. The stay at home to represent your state is an antiquated mindset. Kids aren’t thinking that way when they have opportunities in warmer climates, at a program with a winning tradition, or a chance to play in a college atmosphere where they glorify their athletics.
 
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At least EG has been consistent for the past 4-5 years. I personally cannot wait until we pull an upset this season and he posts his standard game thread recap telling us how the Gophers didn't actually play very well. Kind of like after we smoked Michigan in 2021.
 

We’ve been down this road with the previous coach. Part of the reason Johnson was hired because of the belief he could recruit the state better. Whether he can or not remains to be seen. Even if Johnson is recruiting comparable talent from elsewhere continuing to lose out on the top instate recruits has an effect. Might not be fair but the optics do matter.

Johnson will be given opportunity to try and make this work. The AD isn’t going to bail on him early.
 

scools12 said:
We’ve been down this road with the previous coach. Part of the reason Johnson was hired because of the belief he could recruit the state better. Whether he can or not remains to be seen. Even if Johnson is recruiting comparable talent from elsewhere continuing to lose out on the top instate recruits has an effect. Might not be fair but the optics do matter.

Johnson will be given opportunity to try and make this work. The AD isn’t going to bail on him early.
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MN finishes last again he’ll be given 1 more chance. That’s it.
 



WriterGoph said:
At least EG has been consistent for the past 4-5 years. I personally cannot wait until we pull an upset this season and he posts his standard game thread recap telling us how the Gophers didn't actually play very well. Kind of like after we smoked Michigan in 2021.
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To be fair, season didn't go great after that win, so it would seem he was right to be skeptical.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
To be fair, season didn't go great after that win, so it would seem he was right to be skeptical.
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To be fair, it doesn't matter about that specific win. It was an example. You can find the same post with different words going back many years on here. I'm pretty sure he downplayed the Louisville tournament win as well.
 

WriterGoph said:
To be fair, it doesn't matter about that specific win. It was an example. You can find the same post with different words going back many years on here. I'm pretty sure he downplayed the Louisville tournament win as well.
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The win against Louisville was great, but we got destroyed the next game. Hard to say what that game would have looked like with Murphy, but the result is what it is. Then the head coach was fired 2 seasons later after not making the tournament again. Seems like EG is on the money with his takes recently.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
The win against Louisville was great, but we got destroyed the next game. Hard to say what that game would have looked like with Murphy, but the result is what it is. Then the head coach was fired 2 seasons later after not making the tournament again. Seems like EG is on the money with his takes recently.
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Not everything has a negative to it. Sometimes it's okay to enjoy a win for what it is. How many tournament games have we won the past two decades?
 



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