Next petition bring back Jay Sawvel or better DC

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GFBfan said:
Yes you have disputed it. Every post you have made since has been to compare and knock down what was accomplished in those years.
I said the D was the best we've seen around here in a long time, your reply - nope D of 1999 was better.
So I reply it the best we've seen from Gophers - your reply - nope they were middling in the conference and mediocre at best.
So I reply when comparing to Gopher D in the last 50 they had best D's we've seen - your reply nope, they blew leads, and their S&P isn't any better than this year.

All throughout this whole discussion, I have maintained that they were not perfect and they did not always get the job done, but in the past 5 years they have been consistent and good compared to what we have seen from Gopher D's by previous staffs.

Now your making claims that I or others are saying our D can't and won't get better, when that has never been brought up. Again with the pivot and change.
The D this year in the first 3 games was outstanding. They have not been outstanding or even middling the past 3. Part of that is due to personnel, because of injury and inexperience at some positions. Part of it is also due to coaching, which last year, especially early in the year we lost at PSU in part because of coaching. The difference in all of this is there are some on here that can praise and be critical of the current staff and can also praise and be critical of the old staff, while others do everything they can to make sure that any critical comments about current staff are shot down immediately and then do everything they can to tear down any good that was accomplished by the previous staff.
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Again, everything I posted was a fact. I praised the previous staff plenty when they were here and deserved it. They are gone, have been gone for over 9 months, and are never coming back. Why do we need to continue to praise them? The Gophers have a bright future under Fleck, including on defense. The Claeysists need to move on and get over it.
 

BarnBurner said:
Sawvel and Claeys appear to be head and shoulders above pj’ s guys.
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Sawed and Claeys has 6 years to recruit to and install their defense. PJ’s guys have had 6 games. Might want to try and give it a little longer
 

9.5 months later and Claeysites still crying in every thread defending their heroes. This can't be healthy.
 

scools12 said:
Sawed and Claeys has 6 years to recruit to and install their defense. PJ’s guys have had 6 games. Might want to try and give it a little longer
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Have you seen Smith's record as a DC...the longer he was around, the worse they got.

He's been a DC 3 times: Maine 2006-08, Rutgers 2012, Arkansas 2014-16

Maine ppg: '06=11.1 '07=20.7 '08=21.1 GOT WORSE every year

Arkansas ppg: '14= 19.2 (10/128) '15= 27.4 (68/128) '16= 31.1 (85/128) GOT WORSE every year

Now, there are other factors that go into scoring defense such as offensive turnovers, lack of a decent O, strength of oppositon etc. However, I think there is more than enough concern from the above stats, we have a legitimate reason to worry this could be as good as it gets with him!!!!!
 

I'd like for him to use Cashman, Huff1, and others that contributed last year.
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
9.5 months later and Claeysites still crying in every thread defending their heroes. This can't be healthy.
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Only people crying here would be you and GWG who have to use the Claeysites term.

Read the thread JB, find a post where someone who was saying that the Claeys D's were good in comparison to other Gopher D's of the past,was crying.
What is unhealthy is the derogatory name calling when it comes to discussing any topic, whether its Claeysites or Fleckster.
 

GFBfan said:
Ultimately no
They did not achieve at a high enough level. They were able find more defensive talent, which kept us in more games throughout their time here.
This whole debate I have been discussing has been about the level of play of our defense that was sustained over the time they were here. It was the best I've seen compared to all other Gopher teams in the past 50. I did not bring up how they compared to rest of BIG, how the Mason 99 D was better, nor how many wins they had in that time. That was all done by GWG because he was losing the argument so he had to pivot and change parameters.
Think back to any time in The past 50 years of Gopher Football, the D we played over the past 5 years was the best we've seen around here. They were not perfect every week but were damn good. From season to season we could count on the D being good and you could see the talent on the field was on par with most of the Offenses they faced.



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Our defenses over the past 4-5 years were the best of my lifetime. Unfortunately the bar was low and we still never finished in the top 25.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Maybe the people you consider a "Claeysite" don't consider themselves Claeysites. It's an odd way to ask a question and then expect people to actually answer.

But I assume your label goes for anyone who has anything negative to say about the current staff (or think it's silly to compare Kill's first year with Fleck "year zero"), so I'll answer.\

If the last six years were the pinnacle of the Kill/Claeys era, I would have been ready to move on at some point.

However, overall, do I think we were heading in the right direction? Absolutely. People on this site scoffed at the accomplishment of winning 9 football games, this year should be proof that isn't super easy.
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So if we can't beat Wisconsin or finish in the top 25 after 6 years, what is left? I think Claeys and the previous staff could have kept winning 5-9 games for the next 10 years, but by the end I didn't think we could ever break through and be a team that could win 10+ games. Can Fleck? Who knows, but the goal should be winning the B1G west. If Fleck hasn't won the West after 6 years, I'll be ready for another change.
 

OddStack said:
Have you seen Smith's record as a DC...the longer he was around, the worse they got.

He's been a DC 3 times: Maine 2006-08, Rutgers 2012, Arkansas 2014-16

Maine ppg: '06=11.1 '07=20.7 '08=21.1 GOT WORSE every year

Arkansas ppg: '14= 19.2 (10/128) '15= 27.4 (68/128) '16= 31.1 (85/128) GOT WORSE every year

Now, there are other factors that go into scoring defense such as offensive turnovers, lack of a decent O, strength of oppositon etc. However, I think there is more than enough concern from the above stats, we have a legitimate reason to worry this could be as good as it gets with him!!!!!
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THIS.

Case dismissed.
 






scools12 said:
This is a new season and a new program. Declaring it over after 6 games is ridiculous.
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Agreed. However, it might be the same philosophy, same call/field position tendencies, same lack of strategic knowledge, same unwillingness/lack of ability to adjust and adapt, or many other things that has led to HIS D's REGRESSIONS!

It has been my concern from last winter!
 



scools12 said:
6 games in and you have declared it over.
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6 games in and were declaring that we hired a bad defensive coordinator last December. Based on his record everywhere he's been. There's a big difference in not having personnel and just not knowing how to use your personnel.
 

OddStack said:
Agreed. However, it might be the same philosophy, same call/field position tendencies, same lack of strategic knowledge, same unwillingness/lack of ability to adjust and adapt, or many other things that has led to HIS D's REGRESSIONS!

It has been my concern from last winter!
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Assuming that the DC has some control over who gets recruited for the defensive line. It's troubling when you look at what's happening to this years Arkansas defense. Remember these are the players he recruited the last two years when he was their D.C. Not sure we will see any change in the Gopher defense for the next two years, if history is any indication. Sure hoping we go the JC route for immediate help. What's on campus right now, won't get it done.
 

GFBfan said:
Yes you have disputed it. Every post you have made since has been to compare and knock down what was accomplished in those years.
I said the D was the best we've seen around here in a long time, your reply - nope D of 1999 was better.
So I reply it the best we've seen from Gophers - your reply - nope they were middling in the conference and mediocre at best.
So I reply when comparing to Gopher D in the last 50 they had best D's we've seen - your reply nope, they blew leads, and their S&P isn't any better than this year.

All throughout this whole discussion, I have maintained that they were not perfect and they did not always get the job done, but in the past 5 years they have been consistent and good compared to what we have seen from Gopher D's by previous staffs.

Now your making claims that I or others are saying our D can't and won't get better, when that has never been brought up. Again with the pivot and change.
The D this year in the first 3 games was outstanding. They have not been outstanding or even middling the past 3. Part of that is due to personnel, because of injury and inexperience at some positions. Part of it is also due to coaching, which last year, especially early in the year we lost at PSU in part because of coaching. The difference in all of this is there are some on here that can praise and be critical of the current staff and can also praise and be critical of the old staff, while others do everything they can to make sure that any critical comments about current staff are shot down immediately and then do everything they can to tear down any good that was accomplished by the previous staff.

Keep in mind also that the S&P rank for 2017 is only for half a season. Lets examine the 17 season when it is over. If they maintain that top 25 rank for the rest of the year, I will be glad, because that means we will be in quite a few games yet and will come on here and say you were correct GWG, this D is as good as what we have produced the past 5 years. Will you make the same proclamation, the other way if they don't?
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Well stated regarding the weather guy. Accurate.
 


Pete smith said:
Assuming that the DC has some control over who gets recruited for the defensive line. It's troubling when you look at what's happening to this years Arkansas defense. Remember these are the players he recruited the last two years when he was their D.C. Not sure we will see any change in the Gopher defense for the next two years, if history is any indication. Sure hoping we go the JC route for immediate help. What's on campus right now, won't get it done.
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Not a bad point. I do think there are some guys on campus that can develop. I think Coughlin...if he can put on some more size would project as an excellent DE as he has done a nice job overall in getting to the QB. You certainly could say he would be better as a 3-4 backer but that isn't going to happen here. So I think if Carter is in on putting on size and being a DE he will be fine. Most DE in the BiG are around 250-255. You get the occasional big guy that is 275 or so, but most in the 4-3 are not all that big.

As for Smith...do any of you wonder if it's a case of more so being a friend rather than being the absolute best DC that you can find? I would imagine a huge part of PJF program is his "culture" and if a coach doesn't fit that and is not congruent then I don't think you are ever going to see it work out. So maybe Smith is more of a friend than the best DC that he can find. Not sure, I agree with most here though that he most likely will be a downgrade from Sawvel and company. That's not a rip on PJF and Smith...it's just that the recent Gophers D were overall pretty darn good. I would say the best I've ever seen in my 40 years as a Gophers fan.
 

scools12 said:
Sawed and Claeys has 6 years to recruit to and install their defense. PJ’s guys have had 6 games. Might want to try and give it a little longer
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Have no choice. PJ being very well paid to produce these results from a team that won 9 last year.

A win over Illinois and the flecksters will be proclaiming elite things.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
I'm happy to see you're now more obsessed with me than Tracy. That's the first step in the healing process and I'm glad I can help.
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Never been obsessed with either of you. But you know that.

GBF simply stated, accurately, your penchant to ignore and downplay the best D MN has had in decades. While running hot on the PJ wagon.

We shall see if PJ and staff can make it happen in the Big. My suspicion is the current D coordinator may not be able to provide elite D that PJ is saying is in the process. Hope I am wrong.
 

Sawvel's defense gave up nearly 500 yards and 38 points to Georgia Tech yesterday. Better bring him back!
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Sawvel's defense gave up nearly 500 yards and 38 points to Georgia Tech yesterday. Better bring him back!
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I am not sure what the score of the GA Tech game has to do with anything, what a predictable and worthless comment. Your one note posts are tiresome and your silly agenda is very clear to everyone. What would you have posted about Sawvel had they shut out Ga. Tech? nothing

Sawvel has not had time to develop the players yet at Wake Forest and Georgia Tech is a very odd, gimmicky offense that many very good defenses have a hard time adapting to since it is so rarely seen.
 

oak_street1981 said:
I am not sure what the score of the GA Tech game has to do with anything, what a predictable and worthless comment. Your one note posts are tiresome and your silly agenda is very clear to everyone. What would you have posted about Sawvel had they shut out Ga. Tech? nothing

Sawvel has not had time to develop the players yet at Wake Forest and Georgia Tech is a very odd, gimmicky offense that many very good defenses have a hard time adapting to since it is so rarely seen.
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Sawvel inherited a top 25 defense that starts only 1 player that hasn't been in the program at least 3 years. The majority of the starters are in their 4th and 5th year of the program. Wake's defensive coordinator last year is now at Notre Dame and doing quite well.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Sawvel's defense gave up nearly 500 yards and 38 points to Georgia Tech yesterday. Better bring him back!
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This is Year 0 for his D. Results don't matter yet.


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oak_street1981 said:
I am not sure what the score of the GA Tech game has to do with anything, what a predictable and worthless comment. Your one note posts are tiresome and your silly agenda is very clear to everyone. What would you have posted about Sawvel had they shut out Ga. Tech? nothing

Sawvel has not had time to develop the players yet at Wake Forest and Georgia Tech is a very odd, gimmicky offense that many very good defenses have a hard time adapting to since it is so rarely seen.
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Are you making these excuses for Smith? Yikes
 

oak_street1981 said:
I am not sure what the score of the GA Tech game has to do with anything, what a predictable and worthless comment. Your one note posts are tiresome and your silly agenda is very clear to everyone. What would you have posted about Sawvel had they shut out Ga. Tech? nothing

Sawvel has not had time to develop the players yet at Wake Forest and Georgia Tech is a very odd, gimmicky offense that many very good defenses have a hard time adapting to since it is so rarely seen.
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So what Sawvel’s performance at his new job doesn’t count, but our DC’s performance at his new job counts.... ummm


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