New ND coach

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I'm glad someone else gets it. Notre Dame was able to recruit, they were able to bring in good players....
Notre Dame has the 12th ranked class in the country right now (in them midst of coaching uncertainty and a 6-6 season). They had the 2nd best class in the country in 2008 (a lot of people argue that it was the best, they had a 3.98 avg star ranking), the 8th best in 2007, and the 8th best in 2006.

The least of Notre Dame's problems was recruiting and getting top caliber athletes on the field.

Additionally, the talk of Notre Dame needing to join a conference is fundamentally flawed. The fact that Notre Dame is independent allows them to negotiate their own TV contracts with NBC, which makes them more money than any agreement in a conference could possibly make them. Despite not being in a conference, they have very famous rivalries (Michigan, USC, Michigan St.). Additionally, they will never have any problem getting into a Bowl. They have a big enough draw (hate or love) that they will always get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to picking a team for a bowl. Being in a conference does not help Notre Dame football in any way, shape, or form.

The pundits who talk about Notre Dame needing to join a conference and that say that they don't get great athletes are simply trying to find a scapegoat. Some things don't have clear cut reasons, Notre Dame failed because Weiss didn't get enough out of his talent.
 

tjgopher said:
While I agree that the timing sucks, I cannot blame Brian Kelly for bolting. This is a dream situation for him and his family. Being the head coach for Notre Dame is big. The upside is huge. He goes undefeated at Cincinnati and gets to play in the Sugar Bowl, but not a national title. He goes unbeaten at Notre Dame and he's playing for all the marbles. Plus, I'm sure he is getting a large raise.

This is a guy who six years ago was coaching the equivalent of UM-Duluth. Heck, five years ago he was leading Central Michigan to a 4-7 record. And, now Notre Dame calls??? Seriously? I mean you would have had to have gotten a million-to-one odds in 2003 that the coach at Division II Grand Valley State would get offered the ND job in 2009. How can you blame the guy when the largest name brand in all of college football offers you a job? Again, the timing sucks, but he has to take that job, IMHO.

Think about it in terms of your own job or profession. If you are successful, but someone came along and offered you a better job (ND certainly is that), for probably double the pay (making you a millionaire several times over), have a better chance for professional achievement, at a place that is the most well known namebrand in your profession while you are only six years removed from being a complete non-factor in that profession? You have to take it no matter how crappy the timing is.
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I personally would want to be a program builder where I had the ability to put a team on the map and make them a national contender year in and year out. Cincy is a job where a coach can do that as they play in a BCS conference that does not have one dominant team. Become that dominant team in the Big East and you can compete for a national title every year and have job security for a long time.
 





50PoundHead said:
First item of business for Kelly is to try and keep Clausen and Tate on the team. Wonder what will happen with those two.
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Why would the possible #1 QB taken in the NFL draft come back to learn a new offense, one that is not played at the next level?

This is going to be a very interesting hire. The #6 offence in the country this year and they go get an offensive coach.
 

goldengophers said:
I personally would want to be a program builder where I had the ability to put a team on the map and make them a national contender year in and year out. Cincy is a job where a coach can do that as they play in a BCS conference that does not have one dominant team. Become that dominant team in the Big East and you can compete for a national title every year and have job security for a long time.
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Bobby Bowden agrees!!
 

goldengophers said:
I personally would want to be a program builder where I had the ability to put a team on the map and make them a national contender year in and year out. Cincy is a job where a coach can do that as they play in a BCS conference that does not have one dominant team. Become that dominant team in the Big East and you can compete for a national title every year and have job security for a long time.
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I think that is a fair point. But, if he gets Notre Dame back to prominence, he will be considered a program builder there, too. ND hasn't been very good recently. And, he has a chance to become legendary if he gets them to a national title. Plus, the pay is better. The perks are better. And, he went undefeated this year at Cincy and did not get a sniff at the national title. Undefeated at ND and he's in the big game guaranteed. He has an easier path to a BCS game at ND, too. Win 9 or 10 games each year and the provision gets him in. If he had lost to Pitt last week, his team would have been 11-1 and playing in the Meineke Car Care Bowl. Seriously.
 

the accomplice said:
that Notre Dame having a good football team is good for college football. Why?

I think it's better for college football when they are a trainwreck. People still watch. Maybe more.

Screw Notre Dame and their holier than thou mind set. I like Brian Kelly, but I'm not pulling for his new team.
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This is where I come out as well. Good for who in college football? Notre Dame? Personally, I couldn't care less if they sucked from now until the end of time. In fact, if that actually happened, it would be infinitely more enjoyable than having Notre Dame be good because "it's good for college football."
 



who is giving us this line "a strong ND is good for college football"? it is lou holz, swarbrick and other ND homers, and the sports media--who puts meat on the table by hyping the sensational. the other 95% of the country have moved on.
 

Handsome Pete said:
Kelly is the biggest lowlife in the nation for leaving those kids in the dust for their bowl game. I would love to play Notre Dame beat the tar out of that POS institution.
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bankonit said:
Agreed. I love that guys like Mardy Gilyard are pissed at him and think he is a liar. I will now root for Cincy to remain a top team to spite that D.B. Kelly.
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The next time either of you are offered a raise at your place of employment (which would probably only be the 3-5% raise that most of us plebs get, not the likely doubling of salary Kelly will receive), I want you to turn it down out of "integrity."

Please post and let us know when that happens. Glass houses and what not. Thanks in advance!
 

this is not a promotion or a raise. this is going to a rival corporation.
 

i'm batman said:
who is giving us this line "a strong ND is good for college football"? it is lou holz, swarbrick and other ND homers, and the sports media--who puts meat on the table by hyping the sensational. the other 95% of the country have moved on.
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Eh. It's the same line you hear about the Yankees and Cowboys. The theory is simply that it's good for the sport when those teams are successful since everyone either loves them or hates them.
 



i'm batman said:
this is not a promotion or a raise. this is going to a rival corporation.
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It's not a promotion? Does Cincinnati have a special provision in the BCS agreement for them now? Do they, or do they not, still have a substandard 35 k seat stadium?

It's not a raise? So you're telling me that his Notre Dame contract will pay him a mere $1.3 mil/year? I haven't yet seen any contract figures bandied about, but I highly doubt that this is the case.
 

c'mon. from someone who like to chide other's reading comprehension?

you know exactly what i mean.
 

howeda7 said:
Eh. It's the same line you hear about the Yankees and Cowboys. The theory is simply that it's good for the sport when those teams are successful since everyone either loves them or hates them.
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maybe, but then there would have to be some way to test that theory.
 

i'm batman said:
c'mon. from someone who like to chide other's reading comprehension?

you know exactly what i mean.
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No, I don't know what you mean. You are likely attempting to quibble over semantics, but are not even doing that correctly. This is indeed both a raise and a promotion for Kelly. Notre Dame is both a raise and a promotion over 99.9% of college jobs in the country.

If that is not what you mean, then elucidate it for us less-sophisticated individuals.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Additionally, the talk of Notre Dame needing to join a conference is fundamentally flawed. The fact that Notre Dame is independent allows them to negotiate their own TV contracts with NBC, which makes them more money than any agreement in a conference could possibly make them. Despite not being in a conference, they have very famous rivalries (Michigan, USC, Michigan St.). Additionally, they will never have any problem getting into a Bowl. They have a big enough draw (hate or love) that they will always get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to picking a team for a bowl. Being in a conference does not help Notre Dame football in any way, shape, or form.
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That's the fallacy of thinking that things will continue to stay the same way that they are. The chicken expects that the farmer will come every morning with chicken feed. That works until the farmer comes with an axe. Nothing lasts forever. The Ivy League used to be the dominant conference in college football. Even Hamline once had a nationally ranked basketball team.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being an independent. If this new coach fails, those advantages may be much more apparent. Yes, they can negotiate their own contract, but if their reputation fades, that contract will not be so sweet in the future. Those famous rivalries would fade away too if the shine comes off the golden dome.

A conference offers stability - guaranteed matchups and TV contracts. Independents don't have this. Yes, you can get the whole pie to yourself as an independent. But you can also wind up with no pie at all. If the bottom falls out for Notre Dame, the sweet TV deal and the rivalries go away. They may find that sharing the pie is better than no pie at all.
 

RodentRampage said:
That's the fallacy of thinking that things will continue to stay the same way that they are. The chicken expects that the farmer will come every morning with chicken feed. That works until the farmer comes with an axe. Nothing lasts forever. The Ivy League used to be the dominant conference in college football. Even Hamline once had a nationally ranked basketball team.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being an independent. If this new coach fails, those advantages may be much more apparent. Yes, they can negotiate their own contract, but if their reputation fades, that contract will not be so sweet in the future. Those famous rivalries would fade away too if the shine comes off the golden dome.

A conference offers stability - guaranteed matchups and TV contracts. Independents don't have this. Yes, you can get the whole pie to yourself as an independent. But you can also wind up with no pie at all. If the bottom falls out for Notre Dame, the sweet TV deal and the rivalries go away. They may find that sharing the pie is better than no pie at all.
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Exactly right.

The NBC contract actually WENT DOWN in terms of payout to ND when they extended the deal. ND is getting less money from it now than they were ten years ago. In fact, someone in the sports marketing world did an article on how ND would actually MAKE MORE money if they joined the Big Ten because the payout each Big Ten school gets from the BTN is just slightly less than what ND gets from NBC. Plus, the Big Ten schools get ABC/ESPN money and pool their bowl game payouts, etc. As it stands now, ND gets a reduced (around $4 mil) yearly payout from the BCS that doesn't increase much if they make a BCS bowl game. They chose the steady income approach, so they are not actually raking in all that much more money than a Big Ten team is (from TV, etc.).

In addition to all of that, ratings for ND football on NBC have been declining for a years. Although they did see a slight gain this year over last, the ABC and CBS games on at the same time each normally doubled ratings of the ND games. On top of that, NBC is in a financial mess, having just sold out to Comcast for marbles. So, while the NBC/ND deal could last beyond the current deal which expires in 2015, it also seems a good chance that it will not.

The other idea of joining a conference that could help ND is the idea that they'd have something to play for besides a BCS bowl game. As it stands right now, whomever is a coach there is in the undesirable position of having to make a BCS bowl game to be considered a success (and even then not totally - as Charlie Weis led them to two such BCS bowl games). If you join a conference, you can contend for a conference title and keep fans content. Your guys have something to play for. You have a pecking order to play for. You have pride to play for. You have an identity. Right now, ND has turned into a nomad with nothing to play for other than a BCS bowl berth. That is hard sledding.
 

RodentRampage said:
That's the fallacy of thinking that things will continue to stay the same way that they are. The chicken expects that the farmer will come every morning with chicken feed. That works until the farmer comes with an axe. Nothing lasts forever. The Ivy League used to be the dominant conference in college football. Even Hamline once had a nationally ranked basketball team.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being an independent. If this new coach fails, those advantages may be much more apparent. Yes, they can negotiate their own contract, but if their reputation fades, that contract will not be so sweet in the future. Those famous rivalries would fade away too if the shine comes off the golden dome.

A conference offers stability - guaranteed matchups and TV contracts. Independents don't have this. Yes, you can get the whole pie to yourself as an independent. But you can also wind up with no pie at all. If the bottom falls out for Notre Dame, the sweet TV deal and the rivalries go away. They may find that sharing the pie is better than no pie at all.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think the examples of Ivy League football or Hamline basketball are apt comparisons to Notre Dame football. It is a completely different sports world today than it was when those powerhouses transitioned into what they are today. High level college athletics are not prone to that sudden shift in power like they were years ago. By your rationale, the entire Big 10 could essentially become akin to the Northern Sun, and the NAIA could overcome the NCAA as the dominant association.

In almost all liklihood, Notre Dame football will always be a school that draws extremely well, gets good recruits, and sells out a large stadium. They will always have a lot of money to hire big time coaches, and will always be relevant in Division 1 football (i'm not saying dominant, i'm saying relevant to the point where a Gopher message board is having debates on their new coach, etc).

As far as Notre Dame being good as a positive thing for football, I guess I actually sort of agree with that sentiment. I am not a Kentucky or Duke fan, but I think that is true for college basketball. For me, personally, I would rather have Notre Dame be dominant and ranked #3 in the nation playing a very good Florida St. who is ranked #4, than to watch TCU and Boise St. I guess I just grew up Notre Dame and Florida St. being good, and I think it would draw my interest more than the TCU's or Boise St.'s of the world. For me, personally, I hope Notre Dame, Michigan and FLorida St. all become powers again, I guess I just kind of like those traditional powers having clout. But that is completely just my opinion/preference.
 

dpodoll68 said:
The next time either of you are offered a raise at your place of employment
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dpodoll68 said:
No, I don't know what you mean. You are likely attempting to quibble over semantics, but are not even doing that correctly. This is indeed both a raise and a promotion for Kelly. Notre Dame is both a raise and a promotion over 99.9% of college jobs in the country.

If that is not what you mean, then elucidate it for us less-sophisticated individuals.
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not quibbling, semantically or otherwise (although i wouldn't consider semantics anything to quibble over, unless you were trying to be trite).

kelly did not get a raise or a promotion at his place of employment. he left his place of employment for a raise and promotion.

wow! it appears that you were in fact the one "quibbling over semantics"
 

i'm batman said:
not quibbling, semantically or otherwise (although i wouldn't consider semantics anything to quibble over, unless you were trying to be trite).

kelly did not get a raise or a promotion at his place of employment. he left his place of employment for a raise and promotion.

wow! it appears that you were in fact the one "quibbling over semantics"
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You have changed your tune 180 degrees in the matter of a few posts.

Please point out where I said that Kelly received a raise or promotion at his place of employment.

I need not spell this out, but since you're the one that brought it up initially, I guess I will detail it meticulously. The whole point of the analogy is that he is doing what is best for him. Ultimately, that's what all of us have to do in this life. Considering the type of guy he is, I'm sure the challenge of winning at Notre Dame is the more important consideration, but the money doesn't hurt.

At the risk of being a little presumptuous, I'm assuming that no one who posts on this board has had or will have the opportunity to work at the top of your profession. In lieu of that, the most analogous thing we can do to Kelly's situation is slowly advance through the ranks and probably get small bumps in pay along the way. Unless you are willing to forfeit these advancements, you have no business telling him his business. Like I said, glass houses.

I'm sure you knew exactly "what I was saying" before I even bothered to type this. But now you have what you wanted.
 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think the examples of Ivy League football or Hamline basketball are apt comparisons to Notre Dame football. It is a completely different sports world today than it was when those powerhouses transitioned into what they are today. High level college athletics are not prone to that sudden shift in power like they were years ago. By your rationale, the entire Big 10 could essentially become akin to the Northern Sun, and the NAIA could overcome the NCAA as the dominant association.
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We may disagree, but that doesn't mean we have to agree to disagree. I say that the Ivy League and Hamline basketball are relevant, because they demonstrate the traditional powers can and do fade. Could the big ten fade? Of course it could. But that would involve all 11 schools fading. It's far easier for one to fade then for 11 to fade. It's conceivable that the NAIA could supplant the NCAA. Extremely unlikely, because that would require a collapse far greater than one conference collapsing. It's hard to imagine what could get teams to abandon the NCAA in favor of the NAIA. It would be like leaving the NFL and going to the USFL. It wouldn't make sense unless a lot of teams did it.

A conference collapsing could happen, but it's a lot less likely than one team collapsing. One team collapsing is mundane.

In almost all liklihood, Notre Dame football will always be a school that draws extremely well, gets good recruits, and sells out a large stadium. They will always have a lot of money to hire big time coaches, and will always be relevant in Division 1 football (i'm not saying dominant, i'm saying relevant to the point where a Gopher message board is having debates on their new coach, etc).
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There was a time when Ivy League fans could have said the same thing. Would you agree that if interest faded enough that they no longer got the sweet tv deal, this could be trouble for Notre Dame?

As far as Notre Dame being good as a positive thing for football, I guess I actually sort of agree with that sentiment. I am not a Kentucky or Duke fan, but I think that is true for college basketball. For me, personally, I would rather have Notre Dame be dominant and ranked #3 in the nation playing a very good Florida St. who is ranked #4, than to watch TCU and Boise St. I guess I just grew up Notre Dame and Florida St. being good, and I think it would draw my interest more than the TCU's or Boise St.'s of the world. For me, personally, I hope Notre Dame, Michigan and FLorida St. all become powers again, I guess I just kind of like those traditional powers having clout. But that is completely just my opinion/preference.
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What constitutes a traditional power changes over time. Florida State has only been a "traditional power" since Bobby Bowden took over in the late 70's. In 20 years, people might think of TCU and Boise State as being traditional powers. SMU was once a traditional power, and they fell all the way to the bottom. To be fair, they brought on their own destruction all at once, it wasn't a case of fading. I doubt the NCAA would give the death penalty to another team, and even if they did, I admit it would be unlikely that they would dare do it to Notre Dame.

There will always be traditional powers. The probably won't be the same ones as today or in the past.
 

This is obviously a promotion. He's coming from Cincinnati -- they don't have a very long history of being competetive at the D1-FBS level. They could easily backslide into obscurity. Does anyone remember when Wisconsin lost to Cincy in 1999? At the time it was almost as shocking as Michigan/ Appalacian State. That was only 10 years ago.

Meanwhile, Notre Dame has been mediocre or bad for 15 years and people still remember they exist. So much so that they have managed to play in a few BCS bowls in that time (that they clearly didn't belong in). Notre Dame could easily pay him 4-million a year if they wanted to.

If I were Brain Kelly I would start sceduling 1 FCS opponent every year like everyone else does. They could use the bowl-qualifying win worse than anyone and Georgetown and Villanova are recent basketball "rivals".
 

As a Methodist, I believe that a good SMU is good for college football. A good Notre Dame is good for "Rum, Romany, and Ruin".
 

RodentRampage said:
We may disagree, but that doesn't mean we have to agree to disagree. I say that the Ivy League and Hamline basketball are relevant, because they demonstrate the traditional powers can and do fade. Could the big ten fade? Of course it could. But that would involve all 11 schools fading. It's far easier for one to fade then for 11 to fade. It's conceivable that the NAIA could supplant the NCAA. Extremely unlikely, because that would require a collapse far greater than one conference collapsing. It's hard to imagine what could get teams to abandon the NCAA in favor of the NAIA. It would be like leaving the NFL and going to the USFL. It wouldn't make sense unless a lot of teams did it.

A conference collapsing could happen, but it's a lot less likely than one team collapsing. One team collapsing is mundane.




There was a time when Ivy League fans could have said the same thing. Would you agree that if interest faded enough that they no longer got the sweet tv deal, this could be trouble for Notre Dame?



What constitutes a traditional power changes over time. Florida State has only been a "traditional power" since Bobby Bowden took over in the late 70's. In 20 years, people might think of TCU and Boise State as being traditional powers. SMU was once a traditional power, and they fell all the way to the bottom. To be fair, they brought on their own destruction all at once, it wasn't a case of fading. I doubt the NCAA would give the death penalty to another team, and even if they did, I admit it would be unlikely that they would dare do it to Notre Dame.

There will always be traditional powers. The probably won't be the same ones as today or in the past.
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I'm not very good at formatting on these boards, so my answer won't be as nicely configured as yours, so bear with me...

#1: To the point about conferences collapsing, etc....

-There is a gigantic difference between the world of college sports now and when the Ivy League and Hamline were dominant powers. Back then, it wasn't the business it is now. I think the liklihood of Notre Dame collapsing is about 1/1000th of a chance of team from that era collapsing. College sports is run by money, and Notre Dame will always have a lot of that. I just can't imagine a scenario where a school that will get a good coach (they have the money), gets the kids they want (look at their recruiting rankings even in down times), sells out a giant stadium, and has a national interest (even during mediocrity)...will ever fade into football oblivion.

#2: As far as their TV deal....

-Yes, I believe another chunk of years of mediocrity, could lead to Notre Dame to lose their exclusive TV deal with NBC(current deal is through 2015). However, there is still enough of a draw for Notre Dame that they will make more money than the average University. I remember reading an article a couple years ago during Notre Dame's 3-9 season, essentially asking the same question. The fact is that there probably isn't a single collegiate sport that makes more money than Notre Dame football. If they lost that TV deal, I am sure they would get one on a cable network for less money (still more than any school), or they could start their own network (like the Big 10), and they would continue to bankroll the money. I think it was JoePa who described Notre Dame as a "banking institution rather than an academic institution".

#3: The question about "traditional powers"...

-I probably didn't express myself well enough, my point was that for me, personally, I like it when the traditional powers and the teams that were good when I grew up are really good. It's completely a personal thing. I was glad when 'Bama, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, Penn St. got good again and I hope Michigan, Tennessee, Notre Dame will get good again. It is entirely a personal preference. It's the same reason that I hate watching Michigan run the spread. I wasn't really trying to argue that Notre Dame being good is good for college football in general, merely that I enjoy the traditional powers being good.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Why would the possible #1 QB taken in the NFL draft come back to learn a new offense, one that is not played at the next level?

This is going to be a very interesting hire. The #6 offence in the country this year and they go get an offensive coach.
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I frankly don't know why he would, but I don't think Notre Dame has anything resembling a QB if Clausen leaves. The only two QBs they recruited this year--Rees and Hendrix--are both pro-style guys, which makes me wonder what they will do.

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned LB Preston Brown who committed to Cincinnati this summer as someone who the Gophers offered and who made a visit to Minnesota last month. DE Jibreel Black is another kid the Gophers offered who chose Cincinnati. Be nice to get both of these guys and I imagine phone calls have been made.
 

50PoundHead said:
I frankly don't know why he would, but I don't think Notre Dame has anything resembling a QB if Clausen leaves. The only two QBs they recruited this year--Rees and Hendrix--are both pro-style guys, which makes me wonder what they will do.
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Dayne Crist will be the Notre Dame starter in 2010. He might be good, or he might suck, but he was a 5-star and the #2 overall pro-style QB in 2008 (behind only Gabbert, and ahead of guys like Andrew Luck, Landry Jones, Jacory Harris, etc.). And I think in Crist's case, trying to box him in with the "pro style" tag is a bit of a misnomer. He runs a 4.6 (or did, at least, before he tore his ACL).

I wish we had the "problems" that Notre Dame has at QB.
 

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