New Marcus' article - get past rebuilding stage

[nooram]

Ben Johnson eager to move Gophers men's basketball past rebuilding stage

After Minnesota's first-ever back-to-back seasons finishing last in Big Ten men's basketball, everyone involved and interested in the program knows that kind of losing can't continue.

www.startribune.com

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I’m not clicking that because saying “his challenge is tougher in the current basketball landscape” couldn’t be more wrong and nothing in the article can change that statement or make it true.

When you’re terrible the ability to overhaul a roster with proven talent is such a massive advantage. He hasn’t had an exodus of players who were good/reliable. Battle arrived and left via the portal.

Marcus is very bad at his job

 

[60's Guy]

In this article it says the buyout is not 75% but now 100% with the new contract.
If that's true, it is difficult to see a scenario Ben gets fired...no matter the wins or losses this season.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Reminds me how fortunate we are.

 

[atsgopher]

I’m not clicking that because saying “his challenge is tougher in the current basketball landscape” couldn’t be more wrong and nothing in the article can change that statement or make it true.

When you’re terrible the ability to overhaul a roster with proven talent is such a massive advantage. He hasn’t had an exodus of players who were good/reliable. Battle arrived and left via the portal.

Marcus is very bad at his job

I agree about Marcus, but in case you do want to read, it’s Matt Painter making that argument.

He doesn’t agree on the portal for rebuilding.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I agree about Marcus, but in case you do want to read, it’s Matt Painter making that argument.

He doesn’t agree on the portal for rebuilding.

How many last place finishes does Matt Painter have?

 

[atsgopher]

How many last place finishes does Matt Painter have?

Ya got to take that up with him. I imagine he’d try to use the same evidence. In the end, the answer depends on what one’s ultimate goal is for a program. Teams can certainly have winning seasons rather quickly. Painter’s point is that is unsustainable. I think, it’s parsing whether you just want a few tourneys every few years or do you want something more like Purdue.

Unfortunately, Marcus stops befoee reallly actually exploring that question. Just throws out a few nuggets.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Ya got to take that up with him. I imagine he’d try to use the same evidence. In the end, the answer depends on what one’s ultimate goal is for a program. Teams can certainly have winning seasons rather quickly. Painter’s point is that is unsustainable. I think, it’s parsing whether you just want a few tourneys every few years or do you want something more like Purdue.

Unfortunately, Marcus stops befoee reallly actually exploring that question. Just throws out a few nuggets.

I’m not asking to be Purdue. Or win the conference. Or really anything beyond competence. If you can’t get any good, young transfers as a Big Ten team that can promise playing time…that’s an issue

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

How many last place finishes does Matt Painter have?

Two, but not back to back.

 

[EG#9]

Here's a little piece from the article:

The U's way of showing patience was extending Johnson's contract before last season through 2027. His buyout also changed, making it potentially more expensive to fire him after this season. In his original deal, the U agreed to pay 100% of the remaining $2 million annual base salary in his contract if it fired him after Year 1 or Year 2, and then 75% after this season.

The contract language now says the U would pay Johnson 100% of his remaining base salary if it fires him after this season.

Gophers athletic director Mark Coyle expressed his support for Johnson this fall.

"There was not going to be a quick fix," Coyle said. "But Ben clearly understands that winning is a big part of what we do here."

The first part is VERY confusing. There's simply no way, after a last place finish and failing to land local talent, that Ben Johnson's contract was extended in a way that forced the U to pay him 100% of his remaining salary after he'd been coach 3 years. I am pretty certain a number of really successful coaches don't have that type of security/guarantee. How this is written makes me wonder if it's 1 year of base salary he's owed when terminated.

The second part with Coyle (which I think is an old quote) can be interpreted many different ways. A quick fix has been done almost everywhere including in the B1G at a worse job in Penn State recently. It's been done at Iowa State, Marquette, Missouri, Mississippi State, etc. I don't think anyone would suggest 3 years falls under the category of a "quick fix" in college basketball. The "but Ben clearly understands that winning is a big part of what we do here." seems every bit as important as the "There was not going to be a quick fix".

I will say that if they are planning on bringing Ben back after another non NCAA tournament season, they have done a TERRIBLE job of selling the fanbase on any of this going back to the day Ben got the job. If you look at the Whalen press conference to announce her termination, Coyle could not have been more tepid in his comments in regards to Johnson.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Two, but not back to back.

And zero during the portal era.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

This is a rebuild and Coyle seems to support it. We have a full season ahead of us, I expect improvement and hope for a NIT bid. I know that may be a bit realistic and is probably the ceiling.

But I keep on looking ahead to the 24-25 season. IF Ben can keep this squad intact and Asuma stays a Gopher, then we should be able to put a competent team on the floor.

Patience.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

In this article it says the buyout is not 75% but now 100% with the new contract.
If that's true, it is difficult to see a scenario Ben gets fired...no matter the wins or losses this season.

If that’s true, Coyle should get fired.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

This is a rebuild and Coyle seems to support it. We have a full season ahead of us, I expect improvement and hope for a NIT bid. I know that may be a bit realistic and is probably the ceiling.

But I keep on looking ahead to the 24-25 season. IF Ben can keep this squad intact and Asuma stays a Gopher, then we should be able to put a competent team on the floor.

Patience.

It’s the portal era. The chances of us keeping the squad intact are very low.

If that needs to happen in order for us to be competent by year 4, we need to move on now.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Here's a little piece from the article:

The U's way of showing patience was extending Johnson's contract before last season through 2027. His buyout also changed, making it potentially more expensive to fire him after this season. In his original deal, the U agreed to pay 100% of the remaining $2 million annual base salary in his contract if it fired him after Year 1 or Year 2, and then 75% after this season.

The contract language now says the U would pay Johnson 100% of his remaining base salary if it fires him after this season.

Gophers athletic director Mark Coyle expressed his support for Johnson this fall.

"There was not going to be a quick fix," Coyle said. "But Ben clearly understands that winning is a big part of what we do here."

The first part is VERY confusing. There's simply no way, after a last place finish and failing to land local talent, that Ben Johnson's contract was extended in a way that forced the U to pay him 100% of his remaining salary after he'd been coach 3 years. I am pretty certain a number of really successful coaches don't have that type of security/guarantee. How this is written makes me wonder if it's 1 year of base salary he's owed when terminated.

The second part with Coyle (which I think is an old quote) can be interpreted many different ways. A quick fix has been done almost everywhere including in the B1G at a worse job in Penn State recently. It's been done at Iowa State, Marquette, Missouri, Mississippi State, etc. I don't think anyone would suggest 3 years falls under the category of a "quick fix" in college basketball. The "but Ben clearly understands that winning is a big part of what we do here." seems every bit as important as the "There was not going to be a quick fix".

I will say that if they are planning on bringing Ben back after another non NCAA tournament season, they have done a TERRIBLE job of selling the fanbase on any of this going back to the day Ben got the job. If you look at the Whalen press conference to announce her termination, Coyle could not have been more tepid in his comments in regards to Johnson.

How about Ben's role in selling the program to the fan base? It's almost unreal how low the expectations are of him, including that nobody bats an eye that he's almost been completely invisible and mute in the public eye. It's been remarkable to me from day one just how uninteresting the guy is, at least publicly. Not just how uninteresting, but how he seems to think he can get away with being so uninteresting in a position where public relations is clearly part of the job.

In terms of the article, at least the title reminds me of the old Steve Martin routine: how to make a million dollars and not pay taxes. Step one: make a million dollars. Step two: don't pay taxes. So it's, step one: move past the rebuilding stage...

 

[Cayman]

I’m not clicking that because saying “his challenge is tougher in the current basketball landscape” couldn’t be more wrong and nothing in the article can change that statement or make it true.

When you’re terrible the ability to overhaul a roster with proven talent is such a massive advantage. He hasn’t had an exodus of players who were good/reliable. Battle arrived and left via the portal.

Marcus is very bad at his job

Depends on if you count the exodus of players around the time he got here. From a pure talent perspective, losing Marcus Carr, Liam Robbins, Gabe Kalscheur, Brandon Johnson, etc. right off the bat and having to bring in like 10 players in ~5 months probably wasn’t making it easier to win early for Ben Johnson.

Penn State is basically going through the same thing this year. Coach left, most/all the players left, new coach assembles an entire roster of transfers in one offseason. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes for them.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Depends on if you count the exodus of players around the time he got here. From a pure talent perspective, losing Marcus Carr, Liam Robbins, Gabe Kalscheur, Brandon Johnson, etc. right off the bat and having to bring in like 10 players in ~5 months probably wasn’t making it easier to win early for Ben Johnson.

Penn State is basically going through the same thing this year. Coach left, most/all the players left, new coach assembles an entire roster of transfers in one offseason. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes for them.

But those guys wouldn’t be here anymore…so it doesn’t matter really. He’s struggling to fill a roster with real players.

 

[forever a gopher]

If that’s true, Coyle should get fired.

This has been thrown around from multiple reporters (not just rando internet posters) indicating the buyout at different #'s. I'm skeptical what is being reported in this article. What leverage did CBJ have to have this somewhat big change to his contract occur when it did? If in fact this is true (again, call me skeptical), then you are correct in Coyle should be fired immediately as there was zero chance of CBJ leaving, which is about the only reason you make that change.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

This has been thrown around from multiple reporters (not just rando internet posters) indicating the buyout at different #'s. I'm skeptical what is being reported in this article. What leverage did CBJ have to have this somewhat big change to his contract occur when it did? If in fact this is true (again, call me skeptical), then you are correct in Coyle should be fired immediately as there was zero chance of CBJ leaving, which is about the only reason you make that change.

I think he contract is public? Someone both more interest and time can look it up.

The apathy around this team is astounding. No one cares enough to even look into it.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Depends on if you count the exodus of players around the time he got here. From a pure talent perspective, losing Marcus Carr, Liam Robbins, Gabe Kalscheur, Brandon Johnson, etc. right off the bat and having to bring in like 10 players in ~5 months probably wasn’t making it easier to win early for Ben Johnson.

Penn State is basically going through the same thing this year. Coach left, most/all the players left, new coach assembles an entire roster of transfers in one offseason. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes for them.

Every first year head coach goes through this now with the transfer portal. Ben's situation was not unique.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

This is a rebuild and Coyle seems to support it. We have a full season ahead of us, I expect improvement and hope for a NIT bid. I know that may be a bit realistic and is probably the ceiling.

But I keep on looking ahead to the 24-25 season. IF Ben can keep this squad intact and Asuma stays a Gopher, then we should be able to put a competent team on the floor.

Patience.

I'd argue that patience is fools-gold in the current climate of college basketball.

Holding out hope for 24-25 could end up a team that doesn't have Dawson Garcia as he will most likely have graduated...thus can transfer again without penalty (maybe 3rd transfer is the charm)...or he may say, "I've been in college basketball 4 years now *Marquette, UNC, Gophers, Gophers 23-24) and I want to maximize my earnings as a basketball player (Europe or starting out in the G-League). He isn't getting big time NIL to stay around like other would be Seniors out there who are gauging options.

Also, if 23-24 goes poorly, you could potentially see transfers out (Payne will have lots of options, Carrington (I don't think he would be missed, as he would most likely transfer down to non-P5), JoJ should have options.

If you play this out...it would be a team with:
Hawkings - Sr
Asuma - Freshman
Mitchell - Sr.
Ihnen - Sr (but really old and coming off two destroyed knees)
Keinys (if he doesn't play I assume he leaves) but a SO with potentially very limited experience
Purcell - So - not a Big10 player
Reader - So (or potentially Redshirt Freshman) - most likely little to no experience
Betts - So (most likely very limited experience
Fox - Redshirt Sr. (does he get 1 more year with Covid rules?)
Christie - So
Grayson Grove - Fr

(the above doesn't look like a winning team and would need to be heavily augmented with Transfers...but Johnson has done poor in his first two classes of Transfers (not counting this year as we need to hold judgement at this point).

My fear is that a 3rd season at the bottom of the big 10, which is likely, will make people want to transfer if the Johnson is not fired. And if that happens (Payne, Carrington, JoJ *only counting these guys as it would be two years in a row of playing on a really bad team), the team for 24-25 could be even worse than 22-23.

 

[Pewterschmidt]

In this article it says the buyout is not 75% but now 100% with the new contract.
If that's true, it is difficult to see a scenario Ben gets fired...no matter the wins or losses this season.

Then fire the person/people that gave him that in his contract.

 

[Cayman]

Every first year head coach goes through this now with the transfer portal. Ben's situation was not unique.

Is it the norm to lose 10+ players during coaching changes now? Did Penn State lose all their players after Pat Chambers was let go? Just off the top of my head, Indiana held onto Race Thompson and Trayce Jackson-Davis after firing Archie Miller, granted Indiana basketball probably has big NIL money available that Minnesota doesn’t.

 

[MissouriGopher]

Lol a difference of $500k isn't going to stop the U from making a change if Coyle wants it. In college sports, you can't have a coach with a contract less than 3 years in length, which is why you extend every year.

 

[SplitDecision]

Consistent follower, and finally feel the need to chirp. Long time Gopher BB follower back to days of watching Flip Saunders, Mychal Thompson, Kevin McHale in the Barn and going to Jim Dutcher Camp. MN seems like a jinxed program going way back. However, now with proper facilities they are competitively attractive to recruits. A huge step not to be overlooked.
I like what Coach Johnson is doing, and am seemingly in the minority on this board. Coach Pitino was let go and his 'hero ball' style of play was clearly not cutting it with the talent he had. CBJ has addressed the need to retain local talent as best as possible, knowing you can't keep everyone here. Would it have been ideal to keep Liam here, and retain the Dennis E. project? Of course. He has been hexed with untimely injuries to key players. Not his fault. The Gophers have not been able to play his ideal style (imho) due to player limitations/speed/skills. He has not had 5 players on the floor at once that can all defend at a high level. Historically, a coach really shouldn't be judged until his own recruits are playing full minutes for him. In the portal era, maybe that timeline could be shortened a bit, but fewer and fewer college bb players want to be 'developed'.
Am I making a bunch of excuses for CBJ in an era of "winning is the only metric by which to be judged"--yes, but they are legitimate. Gopher fans need to watch this play out now that most of his players are healthy, and not necessarily rented for a year. IF MN develops proper chemistry offensively, and plays max effort TEAM defense they can win 10 BTN games and all of a sudden the crowd with the pitchforks will evaporate.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Consistent follower, and finally feel the need to chirp. Long time Gopher BB follower back to days of watching Flip Saunders, Mychal Thompson, Kevin McHale in the Barn and going to Jim Dutcher Camp. MN seems like a jinxed program going way back. However, now with proper facilities they are competitively attractive to recruits. A huge step not to be overlooked.
I like what Coach Johnson is doing, and am seemingly in the minority on this board. Coach Pitino was let go and his 'hero ball' style of play was clearly not cutting it with the talent he had. CBJ has addressed the need to retain local talent as best as possible, knowing you can't keep everyone here. Would it have been ideal to keep Liam here, and retain the Dennis E. project? Of course. He has been hexed with untimely injuries to key players. Not his fault. The Gophers have not been able to play his ideal style (imho) due to player limitations/speed/skills. He has not had 5 players on the floor at once that can all defend at a high level. Historically, a coach really shouldn't be judged until his own recruits are playing full minutes for him. In the portal era, maybe that timeline could be shortened a bit, but fewer and fewer college bb players want to be 'developed'.
Am I making a bunch of excuses for CBJ in an era of "winning is the only metric by which to be judged"--yes, but they are legitimate. Gopher fans need to watch this play out now that most of his players are healthy, and not necessarily rented for a year. IF MN develops proper chemistry offensively, and plays max effort TEAM defense they can win 10 BTN games and all of a sudden the crowd with the pitchforks will evaporate.

I don't disagree with most of your post but eventually you are what you are and Pitino's horrific offense has nothing to do with CBJ. He has had a couple of bad injuries but they happened at positions of relative strength. Could you have imagine either of the last two seasons if Cooper or Willis would have missed any time?

I agree with you that he gets this season to show us who he is. However, that shouldn't get extended if he runs into injuries. It shouldn't be extended if Payne flashes.

We need to win Big 10 basketball games this year.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Lol a difference of $500k isn't going to stop the U from making a change if Coyle wants it. In college sports, you can't have a coach with a contract less than 3 years in length, which is why you extend every year.

Yeah, I don't think it would either. That said, if Coyle has given Ben Johnson MORE job security at any time in the last couple of years, that's an astronomically stupid decision.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Consistent follower, and finally feel the need to chirp. Long time Gopher BB follower back to days of watching Flip Saunders, Mychal Thompson, Kevin McHale in the Barn and going to Jim Dutcher Camp. MN seems like a jinxed program going way back. However, now with proper facilities they are competitively attractive to recruits. A huge step not to be overlooked.
I like what Coach Johnson is doing, and am seemingly in the minority on this board. Coach Pitino was let go and his 'hero ball' style of play was clearly not cutting it with the talent he had. CBJ has addressed the need to retain local talent as best as possible, knowing you can't keep everyone here. Would it have been ideal to keep Liam here, and retain the Dennis E. project? Of course. He has been hexed with untimely injuries to key players. Not his fault. The Gophers have not been able to play his ideal style (imho) due to player limitations/speed/skills. He has not had 5 players on the floor at once that can all defend at a high level. Historically, a coach really shouldn't be judged until his own recruits are playing full minutes for him. In the portal era, maybe that timeline could be shortened a bit, but fewer and fewer college bb players want to be 'developed'.
Am I making a bunch of excuses for CBJ in an era of "winning is the only metric by which to be judged"--yes, but they are legitimate. Gopher fans need to watch this play out now that most of his players are healthy, and not necessarily rented for a year. IF MN develops proper chemistry offensively, and plays max effort TEAM defense they can win 10 BTN games and all of a sudden the crowd with the pitchforks will evaporate.

Let's be clear about one thing: winning has ALWAYS been the metric by which to be judged. That's why Fritz Crisler was fired here after going "only" 10-7-1 in two seasons. Obviously he ended up being a very good coach. Is Johnson someone who'll figure it out later and become a hall-of-famer like Criser? I doubt it.

 

[atsgopher]

In this article it says the buyout is not 75% but now 100% with the new contract.
If that's true, it is difficult to see a scenario Ben gets fired...no matter the wins or losses this season.

I think it is just two ways of saying the exact same thing:

The contract is 4 years, at $2M per yr. A total value of $8M.

So after this season
100% of the remaining Salary is $2M x 3 for $6M.
75% of the contract is .75 x $8M is $6M.

At least those are the details that I can recall.

 

[Holy Man]

Consistent follower, and finally feel the need to chirp. Long time Gopher BB follower back to days of watching Flip Saunders, Mychal Thompson, Kevin McHale in the Barn and going to Jim Dutcher Camp. MN seems like a jinxed program going way back. However, now with proper facilities they are competitively attractive to recruits. A huge step not to be overlooked.
I like what Coach Johnson is doing, and am seemingly in the minority on this board. Coach Pitino was let go and his 'hero ball' style of play was clearly not cutting it with the talent he had. CBJ has addressed the need to retain local talent as best as possible, knowing you can't keep everyone here. Would it have been ideal to keep Liam here, and retain the Dennis E. project? Of course. He has been hexed with untimely injuries to key players. Not his fault. The Gophers have not been able to play his ideal style (imho) due to player limitations/speed/skills. He has not had 5 players on the floor at once that can all defend at a high level. Historically, a coach really shouldn't be judged until his own recruits are playing full minutes for him. In the portal era, maybe that timeline could be shortened a bit, but fewer and fewer college bb players want to be 'developed'.
Am I making a bunch of excuses for CBJ in an era of "winning is the only metric by which to be judged"--yes, but they are legitimate. Gopher fans need to watch this play out now that most of his players are healthy, and not necessarily rented for a year. IF MN develops proper chemistry offensively, and plays max effort TEAM defense they can win 10 BTN games and all of a sudden the crowd with the pitchforks will evaporate.

Welcome to the board. Your optimism is in the minority here but welcomed.

I offer two counterpoints. Ben’s first year, despite the last place finish, offered some hope that there was a plan and style of play we could look forward to in years to come. Solid ball movement, etc. Defensively they were bad, but I gave them a pass because they were so weak inside. That was a mistake.

Last year offered no reasonable hope that anything was really being built. They were short handed, but showed no vision of what the program would be built on. They were miserable defensively. The offense was disorganized. Most discouraging to me is that I thought the effort was poor. About the only positive sign coming into this year was a more complete roster.

While we are heading into game two, I have not seen anything to improve my outlook. I see disorganized offense, bad defense, and not great effort/out of shape players. Three years in, we should at least see a plan. I see none. I’m not sure at all what Ben wants to do.

The building the program approach isn’t working. They are not doing the things an out talented team has to do to grow. Play defense. Run a clear system. Outwork the other team consistently.

Eventually someone will write the book “Establishing Culture in the Portal Era.” It won’t be Ben.