NCAA stats: Gophers 96th in total offense, 75th in total defense

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

The dumpster fire Kill took over had the following ranked recruiting classes:

2010 - 52
2009 - 35
2008 - 26
2007 - 48


Kills first years of recruits (next 4 years) were 57, 59, 67, 57.

So from a talent standpoint, Kill had far more to work with.
I wonder if he ever wrote Brewster an thank you.

Those super recruiting classes Kill inherited won all of 3 games the year before Kill took over. The recruiting classes in the 50s and 60s you mentioned were good enough to string together some 8 and 9 win seasons.

 

[Dano564]

Those super recruiting classes Kill inherited won all of 3 games the year before Kill took over. The recruiting classes in the 50s and 60s you mentioned were good enough to string together some 8 and 9 win seasons.

Right.

So it goes back to the questions of:

1. How do you know a high recruited player is actually good?
2. How do you know if a guy was ill-rated, or outperformed his rating?
3. How much do you credit a coach for developing a player vs the player fullfilling their own potential.
4. How much is finding the right guys for your scheme or adjusting your schemes to take advantage of what you have.
5. How much value is there in staying consistent with your defense and offense year after year so you aren't changing things too much to suit new talent.

If Kill was able to recruit classes in the 20's and 30's would he have been good enough of a coach to win Big Ten Titles?
The evidence probably says yes if you believe he was an excellent at getting more out of kids.
The evidence would say probably not if you believe the kids were simply underrated and were really top 20 type players that were ranked incorrectly.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Right.

So it goes back to the questions of:

1. How do you know a high recruited player is actually good?
2. How do you know if a guy was ill-rated, or outperformed his rating?
3. How much do you credit a coach for developing a player vs the player fullfilling their own potential.
4. How much is finding the right guys for your scheme or adjusting your schemes to take advantage of what you have.
5. How much value is there in staying consistent with your defense and offense year after year so you aren't changing things too much to suit new talent.

If Kill was able to recruit classes in the 20's and 30's would he have been good enough of a coach to win Big Ten Titles?
The evidence probably says yes if you believe he was an excellent at getting more out of kids.
The evidence would say probably not if you believe the kids were simply underrated and were really top 20 type players that were ranked incorrectly.

Answer to questions 1-5...wins.

 

[caliGopher]

A pretty solid core.
Looks like about 7-9 of the 22 starters were from that class alone.

Marqueis Gray - QB
Brandon Green - WR
Da'Jon McKnight - WR
Eric Lair - TE - reserve

Brandon Kirksey - NT
D.L. Wilhite - DE
Keanon Cooper - LB
Spencer Reeves - LB
Gary Tinsley - LB
Shady Salamon - LB - reserve
Ryan Grant - LB - reserve
Troy Stoudermire - CB
Johnny Johnson - CB - reserve

So here is the problem with trying to rewrite history in the age of the internet......


Kill took over from the failed Brewster experiment and inherited 5 R.Sr.s from the class of 2007. While that number is low, it isn't all that surprising, these would only the redshirt sr's from the 2007 class, of the 21 players signed in that class, 9 were on the roster in 2010 according to Gophersports.com (which may not be quite as accurate as it should be - but I doubled checked it against another roster site).

Of the 28 players indicated as having signed LOIs in 2008, 11 were still on the roster in 2011. From a group of people who constantly point to the roster prolbems that ONLY PJ FLECK has ever faced, ever, this looks and feels familiar. Of the Top 10 players on that "highly rated class", only three remained. A couple were JUCOs, so wouldn't expect them to be around - Traye Simmons as an example.

My question was about the class of 2008, although you listed players not recruited in 2008 above, so let's look at what players that actually signed in 2008 did in 2011, shall we?

Keanon Cooper - LB, R. Jr. Appeared in all 12 games, started 9. 77 Tackles - quality starter
Brandon Green - WR, R-Jr. Appeared in 12 games, 15 catches, 190 yards, 1 touchdown, med redshirt from year prior injury - contributor
Spencer Reeves - LB, R-Jr. Appeared in 10 games, 8 tackles - Depth player
Eric Lair - TE, Sr. Appeared in 12 games, 11 catches, 168 yards, 1 TD - a catch a game. solid back-up.
Troy Stoudermire - DB, Sr. Started first four games, missed last 8 with injury, 24 tackles, 3 TFL - Quality starter, lost to injury
Gary Tinsley - LB, Sr. God rest his sould, started 12 games, 2nd on team with 87 tackles, 9 TFL, 4 sacks, 3 passes defensed - Quality Starter
D.L. Whilhite - DE, R. Jr Started 8 games, appeared in 12, 16 tackles, three TFL, 3 sacks, one forced fumble - quality starter
Shady Salamon - DB, Sr. Appeared in 10 games, 2 starts, 11 tackles - special teams/depth
Brandon Kirksey DT, Sr. Started 12 games, 19 tackels, 1 TFL, recovered fumble - quality starter
Ryan Grant LB, R. Jr Appeared in 12 games, 5 tackles - special teams player, provided some depth at LB
Da'Jon McKnight - WR, Sr. Started 12 games, 51 catches (team high) 760 yards, four touchdowns - Quality Starter
Johnny Johnston - DB, Sr. Appeared in 8 games, 6 tackles - special teams/depth player

so from the class of 2008 there were 12 players. of those, 6 quality starters, one of whom was lost for the season after 4 games.

From the 2009 class, of the 23 players that signed, only 16 were still on the roster. Note, while MarQueis Gray was recruited in 2008, he did not actually gain admission until 2009.

So that leaves between the 2008 and 2009 classes 28 players - basically a full class (at least one of the players in the 2009 class on 24/7 was a walk on).

The starters Jerry Kill inherited from Brewster's classes in 2011 were:

*Chris Bunders, OL, R. Sr. Started all 12 Games
*Ryan Wynn, OL, R Sr. Started all 12 games,
*Duane Bennett, RB, R.Sr Started all 12 games, 639 total yards
*Collin McGarry, TE, R.Sr Started 12 games, 16 catches 120 yards and two touchdowns
Keanon Cooper - LB, R. Jr. Appeared in all 12 games, started 9. 77 Tackles
Gary Tinsley, LB, Sr. God rest his sould, started 12 games, 2nd on team with 87 tackles, 9 TFL, 4 sacks, 3 passes defensed
D.L. Wilhite, DE, R. Jr. Started 8 games, appeared in 12, 16 tackles, three TFL, 3 sacks, one forced fumble
Brandon Kirksey DT, Sr. Started 12 games, 19 tackels, 1 TFL, recovered fumble
Da'Jon McKnight - WR, Sr. Started 12 games, 51 catches (team high) 760 yards, four touchdowns

In addition, the following players started at times and were depth significant depth players
*Ryan Orton, OL, R Sr. Appeared in 10 games, 4 starts
Troy Stoudermire, DB, Sr. Started first four games, missed last 8 with injury, 24 tackels, 3 TFL

So they had 8 senors (actually 8) that contributed in 2011 from Brewster's recruiting classes. a * indicates a 2007 recruit.

Of those 5 came from the class of 2008. So, yeah. Fewer starters than Fleck had from the disastrous Jerry Kill/Claeys Recruiting area. Essentially the biggest difference was MarQueis Gray, who had some experience as QB, but ended up as a receiver the next year due to injuries and opportunity for the next year.

NONE of this matters, none of it changes a thing that PJ Fleck is dealing with.

So stop, just stop, trying to rewrite history to make Fleck's mountain seem taller than it already is. He is having a hard enough time dealing with the realities of a coaching change. Just like every other coach that has dealt with a coaching change before him, and all will who come after him.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

so from the class of 2008 there were 12 players. of those, 6 quality starters, one of whom was lost for the season after 4 games.

From the 2009 class, of the 23 players that signed, only 16 were still on the roster. Note, while MarQueis Gray was recruited in 2008, he did not actually gain admission until 2009.

So that leaves between the 2008 and 2009 classes 28 players - basically a full class (at least one of the players in the 2009 class on 24/7 was a walk on).

Who's trying to re-write history or saying Fleck is the only coach who has ever dealt with this? Many people including myself have been saying the roster Fleck inherited had serious flaws and was not setup for longterm success, regardless of them winning 9 games the previous season.

By your analysis Kill inherited 28/51 = 55% of the players from the 2008 and 2009 recruiting classes ranked 26th and 35th in the country.

Meanwhile only 19/46 = 41% of the 2014/2015 classes ranked 57th and 63rd in the country finished their careers here or remain on the roster.

By that analysis what Fleck inherited is quite a bit worse than what Kill inherited from Brewster.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Who's trying to re-write history or saying Fleck is the only coach who has ever dealt with this? Many people including myself have been saying the roster Fleck inherited had serious flaws and was not setup for longterm success, regardless of them winning 9 games the previous season.

By your analysis Kill inherited 28/51 = 55% of the players from the 2008 and 2009 recruiting classes ranked 26th and 35th in the country.

Meanwhile only 19/46 = 41% of the 2014/2015 classes ranked 57th and 63rd in the country finished their careers here or remain on the roster.

By that analysis what Fleck inherited is quite a bit worse than what Kill inherited from Brewster.

So you think that how some website thought a player would do once they got to college based on high school performance is a better indicator of what the next coach inherits than onfield performance in college? If that's the case, Gary Andersen must be bitter at Bielema for leaving him a no talent hack like Jared Abrederis as his top receiver.

 

[FredCoxRocks]

If you don’t think JK inherited a dumpster fire then you simply weren’t paying attention.


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Every new coach in the last 50 years at Minnesota has taken over a dumpster fire, wether it is on-field or off-field issues. But, you're wrong...JK did not inherit a dumpster fire, he inherited a flaming landfill fire with a bunch of old tires thrown in.

 

[caliGopher]

Who's trying to re-write history or saying Fleck is the only coach who has ever dealt with this? Many people including myself have been saying the roster Fleck inherited had serious flaws and was not setup for longterm success, regardless of them winning 9 games the previous season.

By your analysis Kill inherited 28/51 = 55% of the players from the 2008 and 2009 recruiting classes ranked 26th and 35th in the country.

Meanwhile only 19/46 = 41% of the 2014/2015 classes ranked 57th and 63rd in the country finished their careers here or remain on the roster.

By that analysis what Fleck inherited is quite a bit worse than what Kill inherited from Brewster.

FTF is, but I know your reading comprehension goes down if some say something that’s only glowing about PJ Fleck.

Just for fun, why don’t you look at who actually showed up from those “awesome” recruiting classes Brewster brought in.

Sneak preview:

6 of the top 10 players never contributed to the team.

8 of the top ten ranked players never contributed to the team.

Those were both paper classes.

And again, none of this matters. comparing him to previous coaches is pointless, but attempting to do that to prove his greatness fails simple fact checks. It is “fake news” that some guys who are desperate to prove their undying love for a coach that has done exactly jacksh!t.

He has his chance to show he knows what he’s doing over the rest of this year and the next two seasons, maybe more. He’s confident. Your sycophantic. And I’m looking at the results and don’t see the path forward. Since I don’t think he’s the bestestest ever, I’m a troll.




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[GopherWeatherGuy]

FTF is, but I know your reading comprehension goes down if some say something that’s only glowing about PJ Fleck.

Just for fun, why don’t you look at who actually showed up from those “awesome” recruiting classes Brewster brought in.

Sneak preview:

6 of the top 10 players never contributed to the team.

8 of the top ten ranked players never contributed to the team.

Those were both paper classes.

And again, none of this matters. comparing him to previous coaches is pointless, but attempting to do that to prove his greatness fails simple fact checks. It is “fake news” that some guys who are desperate to prove their undying love for a coach that has done exactly jacksh!t.

He has his chance to show he knows what he’s doing over the rest of this year and the next two seasons, maybe more. He’s confident. Your sycophantic. And I’m looking at the results and don’t see the path forward. Since I don’t think he’s the bestestest ever, I’m a troll.




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So again, similar to the 2014 and 2015 classes. I think it's your reading compression that suffers because most of what you posted is just rambling garbage.

Who's talking about greatness or love for a coach? All I, and others keep saying that what Fleck inherited is at least comparable to what Kill inherited. Neither situations were good. Fleck and even Robb Smith deserve time to build this program to how they think it will be successful.

 

[BarnBurner]

So again, similar to the 2014 and 2015 classes. I think it's your reading compression that suffers because most of what you posted is just rambling garbage.

Who's talking about greatness or love for a coach? All I, and others keep saying that what Fleck inherited is at least comparable to what Kill inherited. Neither situations were good. Fleck and even Robb Smith deserve time to build this program to how they think it will be successful.

You do, weather dude. Repeatedly.

How long do you give Robb Smith? Another string of 40 point losses?

 

[caliGopher]

So again, similar to the 2014 and 2015 classes. I think it's your reading compression that suffers because most of what you posted is just rambling garbage.

Who's talking about greatness or love for a coach? All I, and others keep saying that what Fleck inherited is at least comparable to what Kill inherited. Neither situations were good. Fleck and even Robb Smith deserve time to build this program to how they think it will be successful.

As I’ve stated in my posts here, and multiple times before, Fleck will have his time. Even if I didn’t say that he still does.

You love you some PJ Fleck. I get it. I like football coaches. I’m not convinced we don’t have the next Darryl Hazel on our sidelines.


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[GopherWeatherGuy]

As I’ve stated in my posts here, and multiple times before, Fleck will have his time. Even if I didn’t say that he still does.

You love you some PJ Fleck. I get it. I like football coaches. I’m not convinced we don’t have the next Darryl Hazel on our sidelines.


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If Fleck wins tonight, he'll already have the same number of wins Hazell did in 4 years at Purdue. Fleck may fail, but that's a terrible comparison.

 

[GFBfan]

If Fleck wins tonight, he'll already have the same number of wins Hazell did in 4 years at Purdue. Fleck may fail, but that's a terrible comparison.

A Mac coach who parlayed one great season into a BIG job and in his 4 years at Purdue, didn't improve them above what the prior coach had done. Seems to me that so far, I repeat so far, PJ is on a similar path. He still has time to turn it around. But to say it's a terrible comparison just goes to show how much you worship PJ. JohnnyBoy would be so proud of you.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

A Mac coach who parlayed one great season into a BIG job and in his 4 years at Purdue, didn't improve them above what the prior coach had done. Seems to me that so far, I repeat so far, PJ is on a similar path. He still has time to turn it around. But to say it's a terrible comparison just goes to show how much you worship PJ. JohnnyBoy would be so proud of you.

I'm not surprised that the one of biggest Claeys worshipers and Fleck haters like yourself use the term 'worship PJ' when you have no argument. Yeah I 'worship PJ' because he's a new coach and he deserves a chance.

Hazell only spent 2 seasons in the MAC and bailed after his first good season. Fleck built up Western Michigan for twice as long, winning 8+ in 3 of those seasons. In 4 seasons Hazell never won as many games as Danny hope did in his worst season. Fleck won the same amount of regular season games in his first season that Kill/Claeys did in their 5th season. Yeah it's a terrible comparison.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

A Mac coach who parlayed one great season into a BIG job and in his 4 years at Purdue, didn't improve them above what the prior coach had done. Seems to me that so far, I repeat so far, PJ is on a similar path. He still has time to turn it around. But to say it's a terrible comparison just goes to show how much you worship PJ. JohnnyBoy would be so proud of you.

When does JB’s self-induced ban end?

 

[GFBfan]

I'm not surprised that the one of biggest Claeys worshipers and Fleck haters like yourself use the term 'worship PJ' when you have no argument. Yeah I 'worship PJ' because he's a new coach and he deserves a chance.

Hazell only spent 2 seasons in the MAC and bailed after his first good season. Fleck built up Western Michigan for twice as long, winning 8+ in 3 of those seasons. In 4 seasons Hazell never won as many games as Danny hope did in his worst season. Fleck won the same amount of regular season games in his first season that Kill/Claeys did in their 5th season. Yeah it's a terrible comparison.

You've got it wrong. I did like Claeys and thought he got a bad deal with how his firing went. Understand the move that was made, but didn't like the manner in which it was carried out.
You nor I really have any idea what would have happened had he been able to stay and build the team the way he wanted. I'm of the belief that had he been given a chance he would have turned out to be a very good coach. He learned an awful lot as a head coach in his first year and would have improved in all areas of being a head coach in the years to come, while also getting the team to be competitive with the top of the BIG West. From how you respond on here, I'm going to say you have the exact opposite belief about TC.
PJ is the coach now and he does deserve a chance, but he also shouldn't get a free pass for what has gone on so far. The idea that we can't evaluate what is going on until 2020 or even until 2019 is ridiculous. It's hard to get people to the games when the season is considered one that doesn't matter, because we have to wait to be good until he gets his guys in the system. I'm guessing Carter C, Thomas B, Tyler J and others in the same boat don't think that way, so why should we allow our HC to think and coach like that?
At this point in time in his tenure, the offense does appear to be on an upward trend. It should be better next year with so many returning, but will have to replace a couple of pretty good OL.
The defense on the other hand is on a downward trend. There are many returning to this group as well, but if some improvement doesn't happen in the coming games, I'm not so sure that is a good thing OR the scheme being run needs to change.
Defense is what wins Championships and the trends of both the O and D do not point us in that direction.

 

[37score]

Tracy Claeys as HC allowed an average of 24.94 per game. This is often viewed as our defensive peak.
Fleck's defense has allowed an average of 23.78 points per game. This is currently viewed as a train wreck.

1.16 points per game.