More upside: Gray or Shortell?

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Some Day...Is Coming! said:
Rosemountain, how come you didn't get the Gophers head coaching job? Since you're the self proclaimed coaching genius and all. Just wondering.
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I don't doubt these are good coaches. Their track record shows. I also don't doubt with my coaching experience that I could find better ways of using gray than what this staff is doing. As could many college and high school coaches around the country.

Division 1 coaching jobs don't come to you cause you have the best x's and o's. They come to you because you have put in the work. They come into you because you have the resume. They come to you because you have the ability to do the things besides x's and o's that coaching requires. I had an opportunity to coach college football at one point. Couldn't do it. Recruiting is a terrible thing to do. I couldn't stand it. I also didn't want to pursue it due to the lifestyle you have to lead. The chances of catching on with the right staff and making the right connections to hit it big are so small, for me it was better to do something more stable that still allowed me to coach football. I respect people who coach college because I know how much work and sacrifice they have to do. I don't pretend to think that they are always the best x's and o's guys in the world. I don't pretend like even the best staff could make every type of player reach his full potential. Why do you think Ryan mallet left Michigan? Certainly it wasn't because richrod didn't know football. It may have been because he didnt think richrod would have been able to use him effectively in his system. I don't think these coaches know how to use gray in their system. An they see their system as more important than this season. I'm saying if that's the way they feel, they should make the switch.
 

People seem to be confusing athleticism and size with QB upside. That's just not the way it works. There's a reason that very few of the greatest QBs of all time were fast, had great verticals, or could bench 350. Those things are secondary in a QB.

Unfortunately, identifying QB upside is very hard. Thus Akili Smith and Jamarcus Russell. But I'd say that the difference between a great QB and one with upside is that the latter merely shows flashes of great throws, decisions, and reads while the former doesn't it consistently.

Is Gray showing that more than Shortell? Is he showing it more than can be explained by being 3 years older?
 

I'm tired of having quarterback envy. Maybe this is more of an indictment of our D making other QBs look better but it just seems our opponents have better and more consistent talent at this position.
 

Here is a question no one is asking. Is it best for Shortell to start? I am also not so sure he is a better option than Grey.

Did it benefit Weber to play as a freshman for a bad team? I argue it didn't and he at least could chuck it in Decker's direction when he was running for his life. Give Grey Decker and Wheelright instead of McKnight and Moulton and he might look a lot better.

I would use Shortell but in a similar way to the way we are now. On occassion and as a change-up. Grey got sacked at least three times by NDSU, our QBs could get killed in the Big Ten schedule.
 

Winnipegopher said:
Here is a question no one is asking. Is it best for Shortell to start? I am also not so sure he is a better option than Grey.

Did it benefit Weber to play as a freshman for a bad team? I argue it didn't and he at least could chuck it in Decker's direction when he was running for his life. Give Grey Decker and Wheelright instead of McKnight and Moulton and he might look a lot better.

I would use Shortell but in a similar way to the way we are now. On occassion and as a change-up. Grey got sacked at least three times by NDSU, our QBs could get killed in the Big Ten schedule.
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I've watched all 4 games at least twice and I can say that a tremendous amount of Gray's sacks are his own doing. Holding the ball, not stepping up in the pocket, just overall lack of pocket presence and awareness, taking off TOO early to run and running right into the pass rush, etc.

Watching the replays, being able to rewind multiple times, watching Gray taking snaps is even more painful than watching it live. He just doesn't get it and I don't see it happening. And this is coming from somebody who couldn't WAIT to see Gray flourish in Kill's system. True, Kill's system requires an athletic QB (like Gray clearly is) but it also requires somebody who is smart, can make good decisions, and throw the ball accurately.

Mason made the comment during the game that the Gopher QB coach (Coach "Z") flat out told him that he's been pleading with the coaches that Shortell is the one who should be playing. Isn't there a chance that the coach that spends the most time with both of them MIGHT know which one should be playing?
 


I'm really confused by this "reads the defense" better talking point from the Shortell camp. I saw a kid orchestrate a scoring drive by handing the ball off 10 times, a nice throw on his first read here and there, and throwing a pick at a crucial time by staring down one WR (for the second time this year). That isn't exactly reading the defense on some level that Gray isn't. With our o-line the kid would get just shelled by B1G folks and we'd wind up with a good QB with a case of David Carr syndrome. Work him in now and then, get the reps that Gray should have been getting the last two years himself, and protect him from catching a beating the whole year.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I've watched all 4 games at least twice and I can say that a tremendous amount of Gray's sacks are his own doing. Holding the ball, not stepping up in the pocket, just overall lack of pocket presence and awareness, taking off TOO early to run and running right into the pass rush, etc.

Watching the replays, being able to rewind multiple times, watching Gray taking snaps is even more painful than watching it live. He just doesn't get it and I don't see it happening. And this is coming from somebody who couldn't WAIT to see Gray flourish in Kill's system. True, Kill's system requires an athletic QB (like Gray clearly is) but it also requires somebody who is smart, can make good decisions, and throw the ball accurately.
My thoughts have been similar with Gray but have only watched two games. In this last one Gray really seemed to be pressing. He wants to do everything, every play. He isn't relaxed and never sets his feet. I get the feeling that a lot of things are not yet muscle memory and he is doing too much tinking and not enough reacting during plays. Gray needs more time. He also needs to play more relaxed.
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Before the season started Coach Kill stated that the program will take 1 to 3 years to turn around. This season is already down the shi$$er. Sooooo..... Why on God's green Earth would you NOT start the true freshman right NOW? What, is Gray at QB our only chance to beat Purdue?? Is the possibility to get to 2-9 really a good reason not to get the freshman a valuable year of playing experience? Shortell is the guy who will be the QB in 4 years when Coach Kill has 'turned around' the program, why waste time NOT playing Shortell now? Put Gray back at WR and get ALL your best players on the field at the same time.
 



Winnipegopher said:
Here is a question no one is asking. Is it best for Shortell to start? I am also not so sure he is a better option than Grey.

Did it benefit Weber to play as a freshman for a bad team? I argue it didn't and he at least could chuck it in Decker's direction when he was running for his life. Give Grey Decker and Wheelright instead of McKnight and Moulton and he might look a lot better.

I would use Shortell but in a similar way to the way we are now. On occassion and as a change-up. Grey got sacked at least three times by NDSU, our QBs could get killed in the Big Ten schedule.
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Don't you blame Weber's lack of progression on Brewster? Don't you assume that Kill will develop players better than Brewster?
 



Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I've watched all 4 games at least twice and I can say that a tremendous amount of Gray's sacks are his own doing. Holding the ball, not stepping up in the pocket, just overall lack of pocket presence and awareness, taking off TOO early to run and running right into the pass rush, etc.

Watching the replays, being able to rewind multiple times, watching Gray taking snaps is even more painful than watching it live. He just doesn't get it and I don't see it happening.
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This is what I see as well. As someone else posted in this thread...Gray does his thing the best when he isn't supposed to. When the run is planned-he usually doesn't get much. When he has to improv, he excels. I don't know who is the better QB for right now, but I do know the WR's have major issues and Gray could help with that.
 



Rosemountian said:
People don't understand there is a difference between the college game and the pro game. You can be an all American QB and not be able to read coverages if you can run well an have a coaching staff that sets you up to make easy throws.
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I'm with Rosemountain on this one - Eric Crouch, Scott Frost, Vince Young, Taylor Martinez, Denard Robinson, Michael Vick (obviously more accurate now, but certainly wasn't when he first came into the league), Antwan Randle-El, etc, etc. All of these guys were phenomenal college quarterbacks. Only Young and Vick have had success in the NFL (debatable regarding Young as his opportunity to play likely stems from where he was drafted), and none of them are/were all that accurate of passers.

That's my point though - I don't care if MG ever plays a down in the NFL as a QB; however, he has the athletic ability (as all of the aforementioned players did) to be a dominant college QB. However, as I stated earlier, I don't know if the year and a half that he has left will be enough for him to get the experience he needs to get enough of what he needs figured out, which is too bad for him, for the team, and for us fans. Thus, I'd be okay with Shortell being given the nod, provided it means Gray is back at WR (he HAS to be on the field).
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
Rosemountain, as a coach, what is your take on Gray running SOME at TB?
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His body type certainly isn't that of a RB. But if they end up rolling with Shortell at QB they are going to gave to figure out a way to get gray 14-18 touches in some way if they are actually trying to win games. You don't want your best athlete (at least top 3) only getting 4 touches per game at WR.

I imagine there would be packages with him lining up all over.
 


Khaliq said:
Yep. Vince Young and the read option.
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There was also this guy named Terrelle Pryor.

Tough question and something that some have alluded to is also key. In what offense? At what level?

Gray and Shortell are massively different as players and maybe neither one fits Kill's offense perfectly (If
I'm not mistaken, Kill did recruit Shortell at Northern Illinois, so he may have seen something he liked).

On the right team, I don't think it's close. Gray is a very special athlete and as many have pointed out, Denard Robinson and Taylor Martinez are hardly what one would call accurate passers. That doesn't mean Shortell can't be good here and I assume that's what the OP was talking about.
 

GoldenRose said:
I am predicting a break-out game for Shortell in Ann Arbor.
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2-3 weeks ago, I figured Shortell would be the starter by the 3rd Big Ten game this year, whether due to injury or lack of efficiency/production by Gray. I still think there's a solid chance of that.
 

TCF=UnitedWeStand said:
I'm with Rosemountain on this one - Eric Crouch, Scott Frost, Vince Young, Taylor Martinez, Denard Robinson, Michael Vick (obviously more accurate now, but certainly wasn't when he first came into the league), Antwan Randle-El, etc, etc. All of these guys were phenomenal college quarterbacks. Only Young and Vick have had success in the NFL (debatable regarding Young as his opportunity to play likely stems from where he was drafted), and none of them are/were all that accurate of passers.

That's my point though - I don't care if MG ever plays a down in the NFL as a QB; however, he has the athletic ability (as all of the aforementioned players did) to be a dominant college QB. However, as I stated earlier, I don't know if the year and a half that he has left will be enough for him to get the experience he needs to get enough of what he needs figured out, which is too bad for him, for the team, and for us fans. Thus, I'd be okay with Shortell being given the nod, provided it means Gray is back at WR (he HAS to be on the field).
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I understand about the differences between the pro and college Qb. However, until there is at least a credible threat to throw the ball downfield by Gray, defenses will continue to load the box and challenge him to throw downfield and protect against his running ability. The other Qbs mentioned had that threat. Gray has been extremely innaccurate downfield and his completion percentages may be padded by shorter range routes. The Qbs mentioned were great runners but also could chuck the ball downfield and there was at least the threat of a big play (granted their receivers were/are likely a step or two up from ours). Shortell has a long way to go but he is a much better downfield passer than Gray and when in tends to open up the field due to the defenses not packing it in. Nowhere near the athlete and doesn't have Gray's running ability but has had some nice runs due to LBs and others dropping back into coverage and creating some running lanes.
 

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