MN High School Basketball Sections - Can someone explain any of this?

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Yeah, height is an issue with Tibbits, but damn can that kid shoot the ball.
My guess is he does have offers at the D2 and D3 level, but he's holding out hope for a D1 offer that may never come.

I assume this is accurate.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

FWIW, Hayden (great name) doesn’t have a 247 profile, so that generally indicates non D1 player.

Have you seen Grayson Grove from Alex play? Tommies offered him.

I saw some highlights of Grove on twitter randomly…don’t take this the wrong way, but he shoots like a girl. Here me out before you judge that statement: I assume he was a weaker kid who developed a push shot from down low, which utilized all his strength to get it to the hoop (coupled with shooting shots to far away at a young age). His form has never been corrected so his shot still starts down by his waste (almost Shawn Marion’esque).

The thing I like about him is he seems somewhat mobile for his size and maybe a coach can coach the flaws out of his shot. Lonzo Ball can get away with his grotesque form due to talent…not Grove.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

I saw some highlights of Grove on twitter randomly…don’t take this the wrong way, but he shoots like a girl. Here me out before you judge that statement: I assume he was a weaker kid who developed a push shot from down low, which utilized all his strength to get it to the hoop (coupled with shooting shots to far away at a young age). His form has never been corrected so his shot still starts down by his waste (almost Shawn Marion’esque).

The thing I like about him is he seems somewhat mobile for his size and maybe a coach can coach the flaws out of his shot. London hall can get away with his grotesque form due to talent…not Grove.

Thanks.

I don’t know him or have seen him, he’s from my hometown, so I was curious especially when the Tommies offered.

IIRC he’s put up 40 a couple of times, so he could be a diamond in the rough and St. Thomas looks like the best of his three offers so far.

 

[Gophers_4life]

MSHSL doesn’t want it consistent because the needs of the sections greatly vary.

Of course ... but how could it not meet the needs of every section to have a set schedule and to play the games at the high seed home gym?

Weather of course always being allowed to change things.

 

[Gophers_4life]

And now - the crux of the matter. The MSHSL has stated that its goal for State Tournaments is to provide geographical representation. They do not promise or guarantee that the "best" teams will make the State Tournament. That is not their goal. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. My brother has served on State Advisory Committees for years and will tell you the same thing. So if two or three of the top-rated teams in the State wind up in the same section, that's not an issue for the MSHSL.

But he's saying the opposite is occurring.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Originally 64, then some applications to drop down or opt up lead it to not being 64 in the end.
They start with outstates first then divy up the metro. It’s a long process and it different in all sports.

How do you know so much? Have you served in this process at a time?

 

[Gophs24]

FWIW, Hayden (great name) doesn’t have a 247 profile, so that generally indicates non D1 player.

Have you seen Grayson Grove from Alex play? Tommies offered him.

watched him twice live this year.
fun kid to watch at this level. hes very mobile for his size (although its really hard to tell with the 2 games that i watched as the opposing teams just didnt have players like him on the court) he can certainly shoot it but has funky form.
the games i watched he had a hay day in the paint, but again, against the teams he was up against they just didnt have the players to contain him

im not sure he will ever be a high end D1 player. this summer will be big for him to see what he can get for offers.

i will be down at the state tournament so we will see how he fares down there with some of those bigger city schools

 

[MennoSota]

Well, SON is one of the most reliable and informed posters, and Menno is one of the least, so I know who to believe.

Merely look at the history of sectionals to see the gerrymandering that has been done in AAA.

 

[MennoSota]

Thanks.

I don’t know him or have seen him, he’s from my hometown, so I was curious especially when the Tommies offered.

IIRC he’s put up 40 a couple of times, so he could be a diamond in the rough and St. Thomas looks like the best of his three offers so far.

He should follow Treyton...
GG follow TT.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Of course ... but how could it not meet the needs of every section to have a set schedule and to play the games at the high seed home gym?

Weather of course always being allowed to change things.

Many times it’s about capacity for home gyms. I was more going on that the meet at regionals works for some sections, but others don’t want to. It’s also a lot cheaper to not rent a college gym.
I think most sections do well for their specific needs.

 

[Gopherfan84]

How do you know so much? Have you served in this process at a time?

I personally haven’t served in an administrative role. I have lots of friends coaching who are or have been higher up in MSHSL or have been section reps.

 

[60's Guy]

Of course ... but how could it not meet the needs of every section to have a set schedule and to play the games at the high seed home gym?

Weather of course always being allowed to change things.

The sections I was a part of…the coaches have meetings and decide the specifics. Sometimes it’s a vote, sometimes it’s a discussion. Always people who feel victimized or the we’ve always done it this way people. Or the we can save money this way or the easiest way people. It’s generally a confounding frustrating experience to participate in. Sometimes restrictions by school administrators that are not sports friendly or savvy.

 

[Powder]

Think of the MSHSL and Sections similar to the Federal gov't and the States. The Fed (MSHSL) gets to have final authority when it wants to but routinely lets the States (Sections) decide how best they want to handle things. When push comes to shove the Fed (MSHSL) gets involved. Otherwise they let them do their thing.

The poster who said the MSHSL doesn't try to get the best teams to the state tournament is correct. Right or wrong, the MSHSL is about participation, not about who is the best. Yes, I know that stands at odds with having a tournament to produce a winner.

A common, but not universal way of doing it is where the coaches propose changes to the Region Secretary, the Secretary will get feedback on the proposal and take it to the AD's. The AD's are the ones who generally have the decision making (voting) authority on how the section tournament will be run. That is usually where it ends. If things still aren't going well there is a Region Committee made up of school Administrators that can make the ultimate decisions. The Region Committee is a Board of Directors.

Different Regions have different views on how to go about things. Should it be about providing the best experience and most opportunities or is it about money? For most, it's a combination. They need a couple sports to be profitable in order to support the non-revenue producing activities. The Region is a legal non-profit entity that is only allowed to keep a certain amount of money from year-to-year. This is for their operating expenses going forward. What it boils down to is that each Region needs to turn a profit each year. If not, the schools would have to kick in. If there is excess, the schools get money sent back to them.

To confuse things more, Regions and Sections are not the same thing. Administratively, schools are in a Region. The poster who said there are 16 in the state was correct. Because different sports have different classes they are placed in Sections based on sport and size. There is a considerable amount of overlap where a school could have teams in multiple different Regions (only one per sport). This is why on occasion you will see a boys bball team in one section and girls bball team in a different section. It's rare but has happened. Each of those Sections could be in a different Region administratively.

Sorry for the long winded answer but the system is far more complicated than most people realize.

 

[MennoSota]

Think of the MSHSL and Sections similar to the Federal gov't and the States. The Fed (MSHSL) gets to have final authority when it wants to but routinely lets the States (Sections) decide how best they want to handle things. When push comes to shove the Fed (MSHSL) gets involved. Otherwise they let them do their thing.

The poster who said the MSHSL doesn't try to get the best teams to the state tournament is correct. Right or wrong, the MSHSL is about participation, not about who is the best. Yes, I know that stands at odds with having a tournament to produce a winner.

A common, but not universal way of doing it is where the coaches propose changes to the Region Secretary, the Secretary will get feedback on the proposal and take it to the AD's. The AD's are the ones who generally have the decision making (voting) authority on how the section tournament will be run. That is usually where it ends. If things still aren't going well there is a Region Committee made up of school Administrators that can make the ultimate decisions. The Region Committee is a Board of Directors.

Different Regions have different views on how to go about things. Should it be about providing the best experience and most opportunities or is it about money? For most, it's a combination. They need a couple sports to be profitable in order to support the non-revenue producing activities. The Region is a legal non-profit entity that is only allowed to keep a certain amount of money from year-to-year. This is for their operating expenses going forward. What it boils down to is that each Region needs to turn a profit each year. If not, the schools would have to kick in. If there is excess, the schools get money sent back to them.

To confuse things more, Regions and Sections are not the same thing. Administratively, schools are in a Region. The poster who said there are 16 in the state was correct. Because different sports have different classes they are placed in Sections based on sport and size. There is a considerable amount of overlap where a school could have teams in multiple different Regions (only one per sport). This is why on occasion you will see a boys bball team in one section and girls bball team in a different section. It's rare but has happened. Each of those Sections could be in a different Region administratively.

Sorry for the long winded answer but the system is far more complicated than most people realize.

In summary... gerrymandering.

 

[Gophers_4life]

The sections I was a part of…the coaches have meetings and decide the specifics. Sometimes it’s a vote, sometimes it’s a discussion. Always people who feel victimized or the we’ve always done it this way people. Or the we can save money this way or the easiest way people. It’s generally a confounding frustrating experience to participate in. Sometimes restrictions by school administrators that are not sports friendly or savvy.

Bolded: there you go disco.

There's your actual, fundamental answer. People hate each other and can't agree to damn near anything.

 

[Gophers_4life]

In summary... gerrymandering.

No matter how you possibly slice it, I agree that it is absolutely preposterous for schools like Wayzata and Minnetonka to end up in different sections.

Flat out, I just would not be surprised to find out that back room/under the table went down/goes down with their wealthy boosters to rig it up that way, in order to prevent them from knocking each other out in section tournaments in every sport. Gives both schools better chance to make it to state in every sport.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Think of the MSHSL and Sections similar to the Federal gov't and the States. The Fed (MSHSL) gets to have final authority when it wants to but routinely lets the States (Sections) decide how best they want to handle things. When push comes to shove the Fed (MSHSL) gets involved. Otherwise they let them do their thing.

The poster who said the MSHSL doesn't try to get the best teams to the state tournament is correct. Right or wrong, the MSHSL is about participation, not about who is the best. Yes, I know that stands at odds with having a tournament to produce a winner.

A common, but not universal way of doing it is where the coaches propose changes to the Region Secretary, the Secretary will get feedback on the proposal and take it to the AD's. The AD's are the ones who generally have the decision making (voting) authority on how the section tournament will be run. That is usually where it ends. If things still aren't going well there is a Region Committee made up of school Administrators that can make the ultimate decisions. The Region Committee is a Board of Directors.

Different Regions have different views on how to go about things. Should it be about providing the best experience and most opportunities or is it about money? For most, it's a combination. They need a couple sports to be profitable in order to support the non-revenue producing activities. The Region is a legal non-profit entity that is only allowed to keep a certain amount of money from year-to-year. This is for their operating expenses going forward. What it boils down to is that each Region needs to turn a profit each year. If not, the schools would have to kick in. If there is excess, the schools get money sent back to them.

To confuse things more, Regions and Sections are not the same thing. Administratively, schools are in a Region. The poster who said there are 16 in the state was correct. Because different sports have different classes they are placed in Sections based on sport and size. There is a considerable amount of overlap where a school could have teams in multiple different Regions (only one per sport). This is why on occasion you will see a boys bball team in one section and girls bball team in a different section. It's rare but has happened. Each of those Sections could be in a different Region administratively.

Sorry for the long winded answer but the system is far more complicated than most people realize.

You're telling me that there are official, registered with the state non-profit entities for each of the 16 administrative regions?

Good lord ... why??

The MSHSL should do all of that! Isn't that the point of its existence??


Why are the there so many things in this country, done in confounding, nonsensical ways?? Never ceases to amaze.

 

[rivergopher]

Original poster needs to take a step back. The MSHL is infinitely better than the Wiaa. Not perfect but the differences are night and day. The MSHL does a much better job in all aspects. They are far more organized and well ran. Living in Wisconsin it is night and day.

 

[Powder]

You're telling me that there are official, registered with the state non-profit entities for each of the 16 administrative regions?

Good lord ... why??

The MSHSL should do all of that! Isn't that the point of its existence??


Why are the there so many things in this country, done in confounding, nonsensical ways?? Never ceases to amaze.

I miss spoke on the legal entity part. Each Region is, for lack of a better term, a 'division' of the MSHSL. Each Region has an 'Audit/Review' done each year of their finances to make sure things are being handled properly.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

again - this is the central point:

-the MSHSL runs the State Tournaments.
-the Administrative Regions run the section tournaments.
-the MSHSL does not tell the Regions how to run their section tournaments. in essence, the MSHSL says "send us 8 teams for the State Tournament." they wash their hands of anything else.

now, the MSHSL does handle the assigning of teams to classes and placement of teams into sections and football districts - which will be coming up this Spring for the next two seasons. if you're interested, the new enrollment numbers were recently posted on the MSHSL website - good luck finding them on that hell-hole they call a website.

 

[Gophers_4life]

again - this is the central point:

-the MSHSL runs the State Tournaments.
-the Administrative Regions run the section tournaments.
-the MSHSL does not tell the Regions how to run their section tournaments. in essence, the MSHSL says "send us 8 teams for the State Tournament." they wash their hands of anything else.

now, the MSHSL does handle the assigning of teams to classes and placement of teams into sections and football districts - which will be coming up this Spring for the next two seasons. if you're interested, the new enrollment numbers were recently posted on the MSHSL website - good luck finding them on that hell-hole they call a website.

Well, again, avoids one of the points brought up: how on Earth did Wayzata and Minnetonka end up in separate sections in major sports?

Bribes, favors, etc. None of that would surprise me. Rigged

 

[Some guy]

I’m very anti MSHSL when it comes to football. But for the most part I think they do a good job on the other sports.

 

[disco]

Original poster needs to take a step back. The MSHL is infinitely better than the Wiaa. Not perfect but the differences are night and day. The MSHL does a much better job in all aspects. They are far more organized and well ran. Living in Wisconsin it is night and day.

I don't need to "take a step back."

And the WIAA does a MUCH better job for football. It's not even close. It's been discussed in great detail over on the football board.

 

[disco]

Well, again, avoids one of the points brought up: how on Earth did Wayzata and Minnetonka end up in separate sections in major sports?

Bribes, favors, etc. None of that would surprise me. Rigged

If you look at the sections and schools on a map, it makes a little more sense. Especially when you take into account the location of the actual high school.

Wayzata is the northwestern most school in a section of west central metro schools (blue icons)

Minnetonka is the northern most school in a section of southwest metro schools. (orange icons).

 

[Gophers_4life]

If you look at the sections and schools on a map, it makes a little more sense. Especially when you take into account the location of the actual high school.

Wayzata is the northwestern most school in a section of west central metro schools (blue icons)

Minnetonka is the northern most school in a section of southwest metro schools. (orange icons).


View attachment 24648

It's not that stark.

Edina in particular, even more than Minnetonka, should be with the Blue.

But fact of the matter is that both Minnetonka and Edina have always (for a very long time) played with that group of schools, in the (Classic) Lake.

They never played with Eden Prairie and south of the river schools. At least not until very recently I believe did EP join the Lake(?), before football conferences were blown up once and for all.

 

[disco]

It's not that stark.

Edina in particular, even more than Minnetonka, should be with the Blue.

But fact of the matter is that both Minnetonka and Edina have always (for a very long time) played with that group of schools, in the (Classic) Lake.

They never played with Eden Prairie and south of the river schools. At least not until very recently I believe did EP join the Lake(?), before football conferences were blown up once and for all.

I think it's become increasingly clear that conferences don't matter much in terms of high school sports. The elimination of them for football is one part of that, but there's just not that much long term continuity anymore it seems.

The current Lake Conference is Minnetonka, Wayzata, Edina, Hopkins, Eden Prairie, Buffalo, St. Michael/Albertville.
Maple Grove should probably be with this group, but my assumption is that the district wants them to remain in the same conference with Osseo and Park Center so they don't have to deal with different conferences at the school district level.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I think it's become increasingly clear that conferences don't matter much in terms of high school sports. The elimination of them for football is one part of that, but there's just not that much long term continuity anymore it seems.

I don't think anyone is complaining about that.

We're talking about post-season play, which is sections. I was just pointing out that Wayzata, Minnetonka, and Edina have always been together.

Also, the Wayzata high school used to be considerably farther south. Only in the last 20 years did they move the location significantly farther north.

The current Lake Conference is Minnetonka, Wayzata, Edina, Hopkins, Eden Prairie, Buffalo, St. Michael/Albertville.
Maple Grove should probably be with this group, but my assumption is that the district wants them to remain in the same conference with Osseo and Park Center so they don't have to deal with different conferences at the school district level.

Probably a very good guess, for non-football sports. And that's fine.

Again, the issue is sections. If two teams are in the same section, then by definition they can't both make the state tournament, even if they're the two best teams.

I would assume that Minnetonka and Edina parents & boosters did "whatever had to be done" to get it rigged up so that Wayzata wouldn't be in their section, come post-season. Take that, Maple Grove!

 

[disco]

I don't think anyone is complaining about that.

We're talking about post-season play, which is sections. I was just pointing out that Wayzata, Minnetonka, and Edina have always been together.

Also, the Wayzata high school used to be considerably farther south. Only in the last 20 years did they move the location significantly farther north.


Probably a very good guess, for non-football sports. And that's fine.

Again, the issue is sections. If two teams are in the same section, then by definition they can't both make the state tournament, even if they're the two best teams.

I would assume that Minnetonka and Edina parents & boosters did "whatever had to be done" to get it rigged up so that Wayzata wouldn't be in their section, come post-season. Take that, Maple Grove!

Maple Grove isn't in the same section either. They're further north in Section 5, which is a REALLY weird grouping of schools. Maple Grove, Osseo, Park Center, Mounds View, Spring Lake Park, Irondale, Roseville, Champlin Park.

Wayzata's section for boys hoops is: Wayzata, Armstrong, Cooper, Hopkins, St. Louis Park, Mpls. Washburn, Mpls. South, Mpls. Southwest

And getting back to conferences, there are indeed three Lake Conference teams in the state tourney this year.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Gophers_4Life - with all due respect, the MSHSL is too g*d d*mn inept to ever carry out the kind of collusion you are talking about.

if odd things happen, it's because the people making them happen are throwing darts at the wall and hoping they stick.

these people have trouble organizing a one-car funeral - but you think they are capable of some conspiracy to "rig" section tournaments?

from my experience - and talking to people who deal with the MSHSL all the time - most of what happens is by accident, not by design.

you are looking at an outcome you don't like and assuming nefarious intent. Instead of considering a more likely answer -that the people making the decisions don't know what the f*ck they're doing most of the time.