MN High School Basketball Sections - Can someone explain any of this?

[disco]

We went to the section 6AAAA (don't get me started on the stupid everything has to be an "A" thing) final last night. Great game between Wayzata and Hopkins with Wayzata coming back from down 12 to win.

But I have several questions.

How do they decide sections and classes for basketball? There's a realistic chance of three Lake Conference teams being in the state tournament (Wayzata, Minnetonka and Buffalo) because they're in different sections.

How do they schedule these games? Section 6AAAA is done. But several other AAAA sections haven't even played their semifinal games. And some sections play at neutral sites and some do not? Why? Why is one of the AAAA class finals at Chisago Lakes, which is a AAA school? Why do Lakeville North and South have to go to Rochester to play their section final? I know how and why they schedule football playoffs but this makes no sense.

Looking at the brackets for the lower classes (A and AA), they're a mess. Uneven numbers, lots of byes, subsections - just a lot of stuff that makes little sense. Why don't they just take all the teams in the state and divide them into four equal sized groups based on enrollment? Obviously there are consolidations etc. during the two-year classification period but it's obvious that there are far more A and AA schools, while there are only 64 AAAA and AAA schools.

This isn't football, where numbers are so much more important. Why is everything so unbalanced? (other than the common answer that the MSHSL can screw up a one car parade)

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Side-note: Went to that game as well and I hope that the Gophers stay away from the Wayzata big-man with a 10 foot pole. He plays like he is allergic of inside the 3 point arc. Complete non-factor with the the exception of a few wide-open shots.

He does have a decent handle and shot, but so soft and avoids contact like the plague. Someone needs to get him in the weight room and toughen up his frame and get him on a plyometric program.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

We went to the section 6AAAA (don't get me started on the stupid everything has to be an "A" thing) final last night. Great game between Wayzata and Hopkins with Wayzata coming back from down 12 to win.

But I have several questions.

How do they decide sections and classes for basketball? There's a realistic chance of three Lake Conference teams being in the state tournament (Wayzata, Minnetonka and Buffalo) because they're in different sections.

How do they schedule these games? Section 6AAAA is done. But several other AAAA sections haven't even played their semifinal games. And some sections play at neutral sites and some do not? Why? Why is one of the AAAA class finals at Chisago Lakes, which is a AAA school? Why do Lakeville North and South have to go to Rochester to play their section final? I know how and why they schedule football playoffs but this makes no sense.

Looking at the brackets for the lower classes (A and AA), they're a mess. Uneven numbers, lots of byes, subsections - just a lot of stuff that makes little sense. Why don't they just take all the teams in the state and divide them into four equal sized groups based on enrollment? Obviously there are consolidations etc. during the two-year classification period but it's obvious that there are far more A and AA schools, while there are only 64 AAAA and AAA schools.

This isn't football, where numbers are so much more important. Why is everything so unbalanced? (other than the common answer that the MSHSL can screw up a one car parade)

They should go back to the 1 class and do a March Madness Style. The cream will rise to the crop and the best team in the state will eventually be crowned.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Let's say that there was a common schedule for quarter-finals (as needed), semis, and finals, and they were always played at the higher seed, in all sections. Say that came to be.

What else are you not satisfied with?

There are lots more small schools in the state than big schools, and with basketball they need far fewer co-ops.

 

[Dano564]

We went to the section 6AAAA (don't get me started on the stupid everything has to be an "A" thing) final last night. Great game between Wayzata and Hopkins with Wayzata coming back from down 12 to win.

But I have several questions.

How do they decide sections and classes for basketball? There's a realistic chance of three Lake Conference teams being in the state tournament (Wayzata, Minnetonka and Buffalo) because they're in different sections.

How do they schedule these games? Section 6AAAA is done. But several other AAAA sections haven't even played their semifinal games. And some sections play at neutral sites and some do not? Why? Why is one of the AAAA class finals at Chisago Lakes, which is a AAA school? Why do Lakeville North and South have to go to Rochester to play their section final? I know how and why they schedule football playoffs but this makes no sense.

Looking at the brackets for the lower classes (A and AA), they're a mess. Uneven numbers, lots of byes, subsections - just a lot of stuff that makes little sense. Why don't they just take all the teams in the state and divide them into four equal sized groups based on enrollment? Obviously there are consolidations etc. during the two-year classification period but it's obvious that there are far more A and AA schools, while there are only 64 AAAA and AAA schools.

This isn't football, where numbers are so much more important. Why is everything so unbalanced? (other than the common answer that the MSHSL can screw up a one car parade)

Lakeville North playing Lakeville South is a good example of a lack of progress towards common sense.
Sure, you want a sectional to be inclusive of it's rural teams, but if they don't advance, is it too hard to change the venue to a common-sense location?

Is no other gym space not available as a contingency should two teams near each other advance, instead of each driving 90 minutes one way.

It's 2023. Scheduling a venue shouldn't be this difficult.

 

[Zeppelin Gopher]

I went to the STA-South St Paul section semifinal on Saturday...it was played at STA. The section final between De La Salle and STA will be at DLS.

No clue when or why the MSHSL went to playing these games at the higher seed. In my day (early 2000's), the section semi and finals were always played at a neutral site.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Lakeville North playing Lakeville South is a good example of a lack of progress towards common sense.
Sure, you want a sectional to be inclusive of it's rural teams, but if they don't advance, is it too hard to change the venue to a common-sense location?

Is no other gym space not available as a contingency should two teams near each other advance, instead of each driving 90 minutes one way.

It's 2023. Scheduling a venue shouldn't be this difficult.

Obviously, there's no possible way that the main gyms of the high schools themselves wouldn't be available.

Higher-seed home advantage gives something to play for in regular season.

 

[disco]

Side-note: Went to that game as well and I hope that the Gophers stay away from the Wayzata big-man with a 10 foot pole. He plays like he is allergic of inside the 3 point arc. Complete non-factor with the the exception of a few wide-open shots.

He does have a decent handle and shot, but so soft and avoids contact like the plague. Someone needs to get him in the weight room and toughen up his frame and get him on a plyometric program.

McAndrews? Been watching him all year. He's a junior who already apparently has six D-1 offers including Wisconsin and Iowa. I suppose that he's 6'9" is the main reason, but yes, for a big man, he's extremely timid on the boards. He takes too many 3 point shots as well - that shouldn't be his role. I still think it's interesting that there's been virtually no mention about offers for Tibbits that I can find.

 

[disco]

I went to the STA-South St Paul section semifinal on Saturday...it was played at STA. The section final between De La Salle and STA will be at DLS.

No clue when or why the MSHSL went to playing these games at the higher seed. In my day (early 2000's), the section semi and finals were always played at a neutral site.

There's no consistency though. Some sections are playing at the higher seed, some are neutral site. That's what I don't get.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Wild guess is that MSHSL assigns each section to be run by a person, and they give a wide latitude about how each person can operate with respect to dates and venues, for maximum flexibility. They don't give a rip how inconsistent it is section to section.

 

[disco]

Let's say that there was a common schedule for quarter-finals (as needed), semis, and finals, and they were always played at the higher seed, in all sections. Say that came to be.

What else are you not satisfied with?

There are lots more small schools in the state than big schools, and with basketball they need far fewer co-ops.

I don't care where the games are played (though the Lakeville in Rochester example is beyond absurd). I was curious as to why there is no consistency whatsoever. And I was curious how sections are determined - Wayzata being in a different section than three bordering districts (Osseo, Minnetonka, Buffalo), all four of which are in different sections.

As far as classes go, shouldn't they just split the schools into four equal size classes based on enrollment? The top 25% largest schools are in the biggest class, the next 25% in the second class, and so on. Rather than making class A three times larger than the others.

 

[disco]

Wild guess is that MSHSL assigns each section to be run by a person, and they give a wide latitude about how each person can operate with respect to dates and venues, for maximum flexibility. They don't give a rip how inconsistent it is section to section.

I understand that some of it probably has to do with availability of officials as well. And that's a thankless job. I'd have T'ed up the Hopkins coach last night without question.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

McAndrews? Been watching him all year. He's a junior who already apparently has six D-1 offers including Wisconsin and Iowa. I suppose that he's 6'9" is the main reason, but yes, for a big man, he's extremely timid on the boards. He takes too many 3 point shots as well - that shouldn't be his role. I still think it's interesting that there's been virtually no mention about offers for Tibbits that I can find.

Too small and not quick enough.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I don't care where the games are played (though the Lakeville in Rochester example is beyond absurd). I was curious as to why there is no consistency whatsoever. And I was curious how sections are determined - Wayzata being in a different section than three bordering districts (Osseo, Minnetonka, Buffalo), all four of which are in different sections.

Ah, right. Yeah that is definitely weird.

Buffalo I can see as historically (I think?) being grouped with "big(ger) schools from north and west of the Twin Cities" like Moorhead, Fergus, Alex, Brainerd, etc.

How Wayzata and Tonka end up in different sections is borderline preposterous. Those schools have been playing each other in the (Classic) Lake for many decades?

As far as classes go, shouldn't they just split the schools into four equal size classes based on enrollment? The top 25% largest schools are in the biggest class, the next 25% in the second class, and so on. Rather than making class A three times larger than the others.

I think the MSHSL assigns a class to each school, period, based on enrollment? Then co-ops combine enrollments.

Say there were 100 schools over a gradient of 100-500 kids per 9-12 grades, and then 100 schools over a gradient of 500-3000 kids per 9-12.

It would not make sense nor be fair, in my opinion, to split them into four groups of 50 over the ordering of enrollment.

You'd be putting schools that were at like 250 in the smallest class, then schools with like 275 in the next biggest, schools with 525 in the next biggest with schools in the low 1000's, etc.

 

[Gopherfan84]

I went to the STA-South St Paul section semifinal on Saturday...it was played at STA. The section final between De La Salle and STA will be at DLS.

No clue when or why the MSHSL went to playing these games at the higher seed. In my day (early 2000's), the section semi and finals were always played at a neutral site.

Each section decides this individually

 

[Gopherfan84]

Wild guess is that MSHSL assigns each section to be run by a person, and they give a wide latitude about how each person can operate with respect to dates and venues, for maximum flexibility. They don't give a rip how inconsistent it is section to section.

The members of a section assign a rep. They report to the MSHSL. Most of this is done through the ADs of teams in the sections.
MSHSL doesn’t want it consistent because the needs of the sections greatly vary.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Ah, right. Yeah that is definitely weird.

Buffalo I can see as historically (I think?) being grouped with "big(ger) schools from north and west of the Twin Cities" like Moorhead, Fergus, Alex, Brainerd, etc.

How Wayzata and Tonka end up in different sections is borderline preposterous. Those schools have been playing each other in the (Classic) Lake for many decades?


I think the MSHSL assigns a class to each school, period, based on enrollment? Then co-ops combine enrollments.

Say there were 100 schools over a gradient of 100-500 kids per 9-12 grades, and then 100 schools over a gradient of 500-3000 kids per 9-12.

It would not make sense nor be fair, in my opinion, to split them into four groups of 50 over the ordering of enrollment.

You'd be putting schools that were at like 250 in the smallest class, then schools with like 275 in the next biggest, schools with 525 in the next biggest with schools in the low 1000's, etc.

Top 64 go AAAA, Next 64 AAA, and then they go from there. MSHSL explains their basketball section process on their website.

Competitive Sections | MSHSL

www.mshsl.org

 

[MennoSota]

We went to the section 6AAAA (don't get me started on the stupid everything has to be an "A" thing) final last night. Great game between Wayzata and Hopkins with Wayzata coming back from down 12 to win.

But I have several questions.

How do they decide sections and classes for basketball? There's a realistic chance of three Lake Conference teams being in the state tournament (Wayzata, Minnetonka and Buffalo) because they're in different sections.

How do they schedule these games? Section 6AAAA is done. But several other AAAA sections haven't even played their semifinal games. And some sections play at neutral sites and some do not? Why? Why is one of the AAAA class finals at Chisago Lakes, which is a AAA school? Why do Lakeville North and South have to go to Rochester to play their section final? I know how and why they schedule football playoffs but this makes no sense.

Looking at the brackets for the lower classes (A and AA), they're a mess. Uneven numbers, lots of byes, subsections - just a lot of stuff that makes little sense. Why don't they just take all the teams in the state and divide them into four equal sized groups based on enrollment? Obviously there are consolidations etc. during the two-year classification period but it's obvious that there are far more A and AA schools, while there are only 64 AAAA and AAA schools.

This isn't football, where numbers are so much more important. Why is everything so unbalanced? (other than the common answer that the MSHSL can screw up a one car parade)

The committee wants the best teams to make State and then play there. Since the 4A and 3A is so watered down to metro schools, and you only have to win a couple games to make State, the committee creates a gerrymandered section. Look at Section 3AAA and 4AAA. You have Totino in one section and DeLaSalle in the other, even though by the map they should be in the same Sectional. So, you have St Thomas and So St Paul having to get by DeLaSalle and Mahtomedi having to get by Totino. Yet, St Thomas, Mahtomedi, and So St Paul all play in the same conference.
Simply put, it's gerrymandering at the committee level.

 

[disco]

Top 64 go AAAA, Next 64 AAA, and then they go from there. MSHSL explains their basketball section process on their website.

Competitive Sections | MSHSL

www.mshsl.org

There are only 61 schools in AAA.

Seeing the pins on the map, at least for AAAA, makes it much clearer geographically. The pins show the location of the school itself, rather than just the district, which clearly puts Wayzata closer to Armstrong and Cooper than to Minnetonka. But you could then say the same about Hopkins, another Lake Conference school, that's literally in the same city as Minnetonka, but is not in the same section.

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

I can't speak to most of your questions, but I can say that Buffalo was supposed to play last Saturday, but they postponed that game (and whoever Moorhead was supposed to play in the other semi) until tonight because of weather concerns. So that's part of why that section is lagging behind.

 

[disco]

I can't speak to most of your questions, but I can say that Buffalo was supposed to play last Saturday, but they postponed that game (and whoever Moorhead was supposed to play in the other semi) until tonight because of weather concerns. So that's part of why that section is lagging behind.

That makes sense.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

OK - I could write a book about the MSHSL. But for purposes of brevity:

The state is divided into Administrative Regions. There are 16 Regions - 8 Class A and 8 Class AA. (basically small schools - large schools) Each Region administers the Section Tournaments for its member schools. Basically, the Section committees make decisions on how Section tournaments are run, and the Region committee has final say. That is why you have differences between Sections. One Section will have High Seeds host all 1st and 2nd-round games. Another Section will have a 'Super Saturday' event with four games at a neutral site. the MSHSL only deals with State Tournaments. The individual Sections can pretty much do whatever they want, as long as it produces a Section champion.

for Section tournaments, teams are assigned to Sections based on enrollment and geography.
Here are the current enrollment levels for the 4 classes of Boys Basketball.

Boys AAAA 1281 and above
Boys AAA 591-1280
Boys AA 215-590
Boys A 214 and below

MSHSL enrollment is determined by the schools Minnesota Department of Education enrollment in year one in grades 9 – 12 minus 40 percent of their educational benefit. (free and reduced lunch)

And now - the crux of the matter. The MSHSL has stated that its goal for State Tournaments is to provide geographical representation. They do not promise or guarantee that the "best" teams will make the State Tournament. That is not their goal. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. My brother has served on State Advisory Committees for years and will tell you the same thing. So if two or three of the top-rated teams in the State wind up in the same section, that's not an issue for the MSHSL.
It seems to defy all common sense. But that's how the MSHSL operates.

 

[Gopherfan84]

There are only 61 schools in AAA.

Seeing the pins on the map, at least for AAAA, makes it much clearer geographically. The pins show the location of the school itself, rather than just the district, which clearly puts Wayzata closer to Armstrong and Cooper than to Minnetonka. But you could then say the same about Hopkins, another Lake Conference school, that's literally in the same city as Minnetonka, but is not in the same section.

Originally 64, then some applications to drop down or opt up lead it to not being 64 in the end.
They start with outstates first then divy up the metro. It’s a long process and it different in all sports.

 

[disco]

OK - I could write a book about the MSHSL. But for purposes of brevity:

Boys AAAA 1281 and above
Boys AAA 591-1280
Boys AA 215-590
Boys A 214 and below

MSHSL enrollment is determined by the schools Minnesota Department of Education enrollment in year one in grades 9 – 12 minus 40 percent of their educational benefit. (free and reduced lunch)

And now - the crux of the matter. The MSHSL has stated that its goal for State Tournaments is to provide geographical representation. They do not promise or guarantee that the "best" teams will make the State Tournament. That is not their goal. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. My brother has served on State Advisory Committees for years and will tell you the same thing. So if two or three of the top-rated teams in the State wind up in the same section, that's not an issue for the MSHSL.
It seems to defy all common sense. But that's how the MSHSL operates.

Thanks SON. I know there are knowledgeable people here, which is why I posted it on this board.

Out of curiosity, I checked current enrollment numbers:

Boys AAAA 1281 and above
Largest: Wayzata - 3396 and Minnetonka - 3383
Smallest: Northfield and Robbinsdale Cooper - 1281

Boys AAA 591-1280
Largest: Sauk Rapids - 1280
Smallest: New Ulm - 591

Boys AA 215-590
Largest: Foley - 581*
Smallest: Hinckley/Finlayson - 215

Boys A 214 and below
Largest: Goodhue - 214
Smallest: I'm not sure what the smallest non-charter and non-parochial school is. It might be Herman or Hendricks, and Herman Co-ops with Wheaton, and Hendricks actually plays in a co-op with a team from South Dakota.

* I put an asterisk next to Foley. There is also a school listed at 588 called Kennedy High School. I don't know what this is. It's not Bloomington Kennedy, which is the second largest AAA school at 1252.

*Kennedy in this case is Fergus Falls I believe.

 

[disco]

If we were to go with my plan of dividing the schools fairly equally in terms of number of schools, it would be similar to this (this is a rough guess, since the enrollment PDF doesn't copy and paste to excel well.)

4A:
Largest: Wayzata 3396
Smallest: Red Wing 701

3A:
Largest: Mpls. Roosevelt 693
Smallest: Greenway of Coleraine: 254

2A:
Largest: Barnesville 253
Smallest: Springfield 137

1A:
Largest: Nevis 136
Smallest: (see above)

 

[AO54]

If we were to go with my plan of dividing the schools fairly equally in terms of number of schools, it would be similar to this (this is a rough guess, since the enrollment PDF doesn't copy and paste to excel well.)

4A:
Largest: Wayzata 3396
Smallest: Red Wing 701

3A:
Largest: Mpls. Roosevelt 693
Smallest: Greenway of Coleraine: 254

2A:
Largest: Barnesville 253
Smallest: Springfield 137

1A:
Largest: Nevis 136
Smallest: (see above)

I think the best way is just to go open class for the real state champ and 3 smaller classes for schools under 1000, maybe it would incentivize teams to play up where they belong. Make every team pick their class every 2 years.

 

[MennoSota]

. So if two or three of the top-rated teams in the State wind up in the same section, that's not an issue for the MSHSL.
It seems to defy all common sense. But that's how the MSHSL operates.

I call BS.
DeLaSalle and Totino were in the same Sectional for years. Those schools whined and now they are in two different sections. The system is all about gerrymandering in the metro. Just look at the redistricting that has been done. The MSHSL can blow smoke up people's asses all they want but you can see the facts in the redrawing of the sectionals.

 

[disco]

Well, SON is one of the most reliable and informed posters, and Menno is one of the least, so I know who to believe.

 

[disco]

Too small and not quick enough.

Yeah, height is an issue with Tibbits, but damn can that kid shoot the ball.
My guess is he does have offers at the D2 and D3 level, but he's holding out hope for a D1 offer that may never come.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Yeah, height is an issue with Tibbits, but damn can that kid shoot the ball.
My guess is he does have offers at the D2 and D3 level, but he's holding out hope for a D1 offer that may never come.

FWIW, Hayden (great name) doesn’t have a 247 profile, so that generally indicates non D1 player.

Have you seen Grayson Grove from Alex play? Tommies offered him.