Mixed emotions

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Schnauzer

Schnauzer

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I am all in on coach Fleck. Very excited. With that in mind I get irritated every time I hear the typical quotes that insinuate something (football wise) needed to change.

I was all in on coach Kill too. I admire him and I love the way he did his job. I loved the improvement the team made under him on the field and in the classroom. I am a little sad that his outstanding legacy is being kicked to the curb as if something was broken.

I like Tracy Claeys and feel he was a brilliant defensive mind that proved again and again he was up to the task of leading the team when Kill was out. But I worried about Claeys too. Could he be the dynamic face of the program? Could his introverted style win recruiting battles? It seemed like he was very capable of coaching up lower ranked recruits but limited in bringing in highly ranked recruits. I worry where the program was headed in the future under Claeys but was impressed with his abilities in the present.

Totally pumped every time I consider where the program can go under Fleck but very concerned about Kill's legacy.

And Coyle... the whole title IX thing seems to be very poorly handled and Kaler/Coyle operation seems to be unfair to Claeys. But, Coyle has put on a coach search that was perfectly executed compared to the painful Brewster and Kill processes. And for all their faults it seems like the administration is doing what they can to win. Love/hate.

Anyone else have these mixed emotions?

In the end I get this weird bipolar vibe.
 

Great post, I've thought the same thing.

Kill and Claeys had huge success at the U and we will forever be indebted to them for how they changed the culture and brought us back to respectability. I still believe Claeys would have had a chance to elevate the program even further than he did this past year.

Bottom line, I am a fan of Kill, Claeys and Fleck. There is no need to tarnish their legacy or disrespect all they accomplished in their time here. But now I am excited for what Fleck can do.
 

I'm about in the same place. I take all these guys with a grain of salt, but I thought Kill was a very good coach and Claeys was a very good assistant. When Claeys got the job, I was worried that we'd gotten a "Gutey," great guy with solid X and O capability, but about as exciting as three-day old rice pudding. For the record, I voted to keep him in the poll. It has been hard to watch the last month unfold, but we are where we are right now. Don't know what to make of Fleck yet, but I'm excited to find out.
 

Yep.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 



If I had been at the press conference,this would have been my question:

Outside of the incident in September, what parts of the football culture needed to be changed?

High APR, high graduation rates, high team GPA, success on the field - there were so many positives about this program, and so much improvement in recent years. Then, 4 or 5 guys do something stupid one night, and suddenly the "culture" needs to be changed.

IMHO, all of this "culture" talk is a smokescreen - giving Coyle cover so he could do what he wanted to do from day 1 - name his own FB coach. (and it freakin' helps when the powers-that-be agree to shell out the highest salary in program history. I wonder what candidates they could have attracted during the Kill search if they had been offering that level of salary?)
 

Every time someone brings up Claeys' less than dynamic personality and the assumption that it would hold the program back, I think of Paul Chryst. I think Tracy could talk circles around him.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
If I had been at the press conference,this would have been my question:

Outside of the incident in September, what parts of the football culture needed to be changed?

High APR, high graduation rates, high team GPA, success on the field - there were so many positives about this program, and so much improvement in recent years. Then, 4 or 5 guys do something stupid one night, and suddenly the "culture" needs to be changed.

IMHO, all of this "culture" talk is a smokescreen - giving Coyle cover so he could do what he wanted to do from day 1 - name his own FB coach. (and it freakin' helps when the powers-that-be agree to shell out the highest salary in program history. I wonder what candidates they could have attracted during the Kill search if they had been offering that level of salary?)
Click to expand...
+1000

The suspensions and expulsions while Claeys is gone to San Diego and can't quickly respond is a huge red flag. Coyle and Kaler connived and schemed this entire soap opera including the entire "culture" war.
 

Schnauzer said:
I am all in on coach Fleck. Very excited. With that in mind I get irritated every time I hear the typical quotes that insinuate something (football wise) needed to change.

I was all in on coach Kill too. I admire him and I love the way he did his job. I loved the improvement the team made under him on the field and in the classroom. I am a little sad that his outstanding legacy is being kicked to the curb as if something was broken.

I like Tracy Claeys and feel he was a brilliant defensive mind that proved again and again he was up to the task of leading the team when Kill was out. But I worried about Claeys too. Could he be the dynamic face of the program? Could his introverted style win recruiting battles? It seemed like he was very capable of coaching up lower ranked recruits but limited in bringing in highly ranked recruits. I worry where the program was headed in the future under Claeys but was impressed with his abilities in the present.

Totally pumped every time I consider where the program can go under Fleck but very concerned about Kill's legacy.

And Coyle... the whole title IX thing seems to be very poorly handled and Kaler/Coyle operation seems to be unfair to Claeys. But, Coyle has put on a coach search that was perfectly executed compared to the painful Brewster and Kill processes. And for all their faults it seems like the administration is doing what they can to win. Love/hate.

Anyone else have these mixed emotions?

In the end I get this weird bipolar vibe.
Click to expand...
Well put. I feel the same way. Hopeful (very) but sad at the loss of the Kill regime and angry at the way Title IX was handled ,especially the TIMING, which seems calculated and pernicious.
 



Schnauzer said:
I am all in on coach Fleck. Very excited. With that in mind I get irritated every time I hear the typical quotes that insinuate something (football wise) needed to change.

I was all in on coach Kill too. I admire him and I love the way he did his job. I loved the improvement the team made under him on the field and in the classroom. I am a little sad that his outstanding legacy is being kicked to the curb as if something was broken.

I like Tracy Claeys and feel he was a brilliant defensive mind that proved again and again he was up to the task of leading the team when Kill was out. But I worried about Claeys too. Could he be the dynamic face of the program? Could his introverted style win recruiting battles? It seemed like he was very capable of coaching up lower ranked recruits but limited in bringing in highly ranked recruits. I worry where the program was headed in the future under Claeys but was impressed with his abilities in the present.

Totally pumped every time I consider where the program can go under Fleck but very concerned about Kill's legacy.

And Coyle... the whole title IX thing seems to be very poorly handled and Kaler/Coyle operation seems to be unfair to Claeys. But, Coyle has put on a coach search that was perfectly executed compared to the painful Brewster and Kill processes. And for all their faults it seems like the administration is doing what they can to win. Love/hate.

Anyone else have these mixed emotions?

In the end I get this weird bipolar vibe.
Click to expand...

Well said. Similar take on the situation. I am not sure TC could have taken the next step (and who knows if Fleck will) and that is what this AD is shooting for. Feel very bad for TC but this was the time to make a change if one was going to be made. He's an excellent coach and players really seem to like playing for him. Could he be the face of the program? Coyle concluded "no".
 

I also feel bad for Claeys, and hope he isn't viewed in Minnesota sports history as a "pro-rape" piece of crap, and that his firing was inevitable because of that. PJ Fleck is the type of guy who makes me want to swim across the Atlantic Ocean and kill ISIS with my bare fists, and he'll certainly be entertaining, but I kind of appreciated how Claeys was the opposite of that. He seemed like a somewhat nondescript human being who just happened to be the head coach of a major conference Division I college football team, just a regular guy who seemed to really earn the loyalty and love of his players, and was, if nothing else, a fine defensive coordinator. I questioned how important the "face of the program" thing was, and wondered if it was just something that people who disliked Claeys from the start would use against him, the sort of fan who is deeming 9-4 to be a failure. I never looked at recruiting a whole lot under either Claeys or Kill, since we didn't seem to get many players worth getting excited about on signing day, so I can't really give an opinion on Claeys' recruiting, which may have been a legit concern for his long term prospects here.

I also agree that the whole "change the culture" thing seems a little odd since our team was toward the top of the conference academically. We don't really need to "turn this thing around."

I am totally on board with Fleck, but I was unsure about the Claeys firing, and I really hope he finds success in the future. He'll give some team some great defenses.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
If I had been at the press conference,this would have been my question:

Outside of the incident in September, what parts of the football culture needed to be changed?

High APR, high graduation rates, high team GPA, success on the field - there were so many positives about this program, and so much improvement in recent years. Then, 4 or 5 guys do something stupid one night, and suddenly the "culture" needs to be changed.

IMHO, all of this "culture" talk is a smokescreen - giving Coyle cover so he could do what he wanted to do from day 1 - name his own FB coach. (and it freakin' helps when the powers-that-be agree to shell out the highest salary in program history. I wonder what candidates they could have attracted during the Kill search if they had been offering that level of salary?)
Click to expand...
Agree with the above
 

The "Culture" rationale is just a smoke screen to disable the scrutiny of the Feminazis.
 



GoldenRodents said:
The "Culture" rationale is just a smoke screen to disable the scrutiny of the Feminazis.
Click to expand...

Four years ago Fleck talked about changing the culture at Western Michigan. It's a genuine part of who he is.

Convenient though.
 

Old Goph said:
Every time someone brings up Claeys' less than dynamic personality and the assumption that it would hold the program back, I think of Paul Chryst. I think Tracy could talk circles around him.
Click to expand...
Since you brought up Mr. Chryst, this seems like a good time for a little comparison.

 

short ornery norwegian said:
If I had been at the press conference,this would have been my question:

Outside of the incident in September, what parts of the football culture needed to be changed?

High APR, high graduation rates, high team GPA, success on the field - there were so many positives about this program, and so much improvement in recent years. Then, 4 or 5 guys do something stupid one night, and suddenly the "culture" needs to be changed.

IMHO, all of this "culture" talk is a smokescreen - giving Coyle cover so he could do what he wanted to do from day 1 - name his own FB coach. (and it freakin' helps when the powers-that-be agree to shell out the highest salary in program history. I wonder what candidates they could have attracted during the Kill search if they had been offering that level of salary?)
Click to expand...

"Just because you win games doesn't mean the culture is right." -PJ Fleck

That was from one of his interviews this week. And to me, it represents the difference between the two cultures of coach Claeys and what coach Fleck hopes to bring to the program. To me, Claeys was a football-only guy and that's all he really dealt with. He's good at the Xs and Os, but there's more to winning at a big-time level than that. Meanwhile, Fleck says that when he addresses his team during the week he hardly talks football. It's more about life lessons. That's a culture change.

Then you look at the excitement level around the program. Only the second 9-win season in the program since 1905 and the third 8-win season in four years and there was the lowest attendance average in the program since 2002. Overall, a lot of Gophers fans were feeling apathetic about the program, even before the boycott. Others have a "good enough" mindset, that it's okay that Minnesota hasn't won a share of the conference title in 50 years. That's a needed culture change.
 

joshvanklomp said:
"Just because you win games doesn't mean the culture is right." -PJ Fleck

That was from one of his interviews this week. And to me, it represents the difference between the two cultures of coach Claeys and what coach Fleck hopes to bring to the program. To me, Claeys was a football-only guy and that's all he really dealt with. He's good at the Xs and Os, but there's more to winning at a big-time level than that. Meanwhile, Fleck says that when he addresses his team during the week he hardly talks football. It's more about life lessons. That's a culture change.

Then you look at the excitement level around the program. Only the second 9-win season in the program since 1905 and the third 8-win season in four years and there was the lowest attendance average in the program since 2002. Overall, a lot of Gophers fans were feeling apathetic about the program, even before the boycott. Others have a "good enough" mindset, that it's okay that Minnesota hasn't won a share of the conference title in 50 years. That's a needed culture change.
Click to expand...

Gravy training off of this... I was wondering, at first, what culture needed to be changed? He must be putting in the narrative that he will fix any and all immoral activities going on.

What I really think he's talking about is the need for a state-of-mind change. Since the sexual allegations, everyone has "punk kid, womanizer" type of thinking at the top of their brains. But what he may truly mean is a different approach, a different type of thinking is needed. Pete Thamel was on with Barreiro on Friday. He alluded to the only time Minnesota makes headlines is when there is a scandal. The program has cobwebs on top of cobwebs around it. This is from a national college football writer. Fleck may realize this, too, and want people to embrace his "unique" approach. Otherwise, it will be easier to maintain status quo and remain a middling Big Ten team.

The goal at the U of M should be for our young Basketball and Football coaches to require raises 3 years from now. Not just the Norwood Teague feeling-the-pressure type of raises, but results oriented ones.
 

The job of the AD is to hire a winning football coach that can fill the Stadium. Both are critical for football because football finances the entire department. In Madison, Kalamazoo & Ames college football is the only game in town. In Minneapolis it isn't. That's too bad, but it's a fact. To compare Clay's with his contemporaries, first talk empty seats. The head coaches in Lincoln and Madison are hugely successful. Claeys was a failure. Is it fair? Hell no, but it's the deal if you want to be the HC in Minnesota.

Don't overlook that with 10 times the available audience a crazy good HC could raise the need to expand the stadium and could raise his salary to dizzying heights. Or, if not, be fired after a winning season.
 

MennoSota said:
+1000

The suspensions and expulsions while Claeys is gone to San Diego and can't quickly respond is a huge red flag. Coyle and Kaler connived and schemed this entire soap opera including the entire "culture" war.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Pathetic leadership.
 

ncgo4 said:
The job of the AD is to hire a winning football coach that can fill the Stadium. Both are critical for football because football finances the entire department. In Madison, Kalamazoo & Ames college football is the only game in town. In Minneapolis it isn't. That's too bad, but it's a fact. To compare Clay's with his contemporaries, first talk empty seats. The head coaches in Lincoln and Madison are hugely successful. Claeys was a failure. Is it fair? Hell no, but it's the deal if you want to be the HC in Minnesota.

Don't overlook that with 10 times the available audience a crazy good HC could raise the need to expand the stadium and could raise his salary to dizzying heights. Or, if not, be fired after a winning season.
Click to expand...

A failure????

What planet are you on. What drugs are you on?
 

kb sabre said:
Gravy training off of this... I was wondering, at first, what culture needed to be changed? He must be putting in the narrative that he will fix any and all immoral activities going on.

What I really think he's talking about is the need for a state-of-mind change. Since the sexual allegations, everyone has "punk kid, womanizer" type of thinking at the top of their brains. But what he may truly mean is a different approach, a different type of thinking is needed. Pete Thamel was on with Barreiro on Friday. He alluded to the only time Minnesota makes headlines is when there is a scandal. The program has cobwebs on top of cobwebs around it. This is from a national college football writer. Fleck may realize this, too, and want people to embrace his "unique" approach. Otherwise, it will be easier to maintain status quo and remain a middling Big Ten team.

The goal at the U of M should be for our young Basketball and Football coaches to require raises 3 years from now. Not just the Norwood Teague feeling-the-pressure type of raises, but results oriented ones.
Click to expand...

Agree with this. "Culture" can mean a lot of different things. Another angle may be Fleck wanting to somewhat break down (no one can completely break down) the on-going tug-of-war between the team, the administration, and the school community. I like the talk about community service. A lot of this is window dressing, but if he can diminish the us v. them mentality that has taken over the place (and seemingly existed for a long time), it will be a good thing.
 

The culture of winning and expecting to win is a lot different from the culture of hoping to win and moral victories. Knowing how to finish out a beaten opponent instead n of letting them back in a ball game is a change in culture that I want to see. my $.02.
 

Schnauzer said:
I am all in on coach Fleck. Very excited. With that in mind I get irritated every time I hear the typical quotes that insinuate something (football wise) needed to change.

I was all in on coach Kill too. I admire him and I love the way he did his job. I loved the improvement the team made under him on the field and in the classroom. I am a little sad that his outstanding legacy is being kicked to the curb as if something was broken.

I like Tracy Claeys and feel he was a brilliant defensive mind that proved again and again he was up to the task of leading the team when Kill was out. But I worried about Claeys too. Could he be the dynamic face of the program? Could his introverted style win recruiting battles? It seemed like he was very capable of coaching up lower ranked recruits but limited in bringing in highly ranked recruits. I worry where the program was headed in the future under Claeys but was impressed with his abilities in the present.

Totally pumped every time I consider where the program can go under Fleck but very concerned about Kill's legacy.

And Coyle... the whole title IX thing seems to be very poorly handled and Kaler/Coyle operation seems to be unfair to Claeys. But, Coyle has put on a coach search that was perfectly executed compared to the painful Brewster and Kill processes. And for all their faults it seems like the administration is doing what they can to win. Love/hate.

Anyone else have these mixed emotions?

In the end I get this weird bipolar vibe.
Click to expand...

100% accurate. Exact same feelings here. But at the end the day... I am happier with where the program is today then I was three weeks ago.
 

I like many had mixed emotions. I really thought overall Kill and Claeys did one heck of a job to get the program to more than respectable levels. Yes we didn't win the trophy games this year and that was disappointing but we have won a number over the last few years. Their ability to identify recruits on their own system of analysis and to fit what they do as a team in my opinion was very impressive. There are a number of recruits that didn't rank highly that are in the NFL. Finally the way they changed the whole culture of how they ran the team...from the grueling tempo, the "loopher" shirts, to accountability in the classroom was amazing to me. Remember when they took over they were in danger of losing scholarships because of their APR, now...just look at them. Just a great job all around. I wanted Claeys to stay for those reasons (well those and the fact the defenses were so damn good!).

I don't care what kind of relationship Coyle had with Claeys and the football program as a whole, he NEVER should have done what he's did in that presser, scandal or not. He was very derogatory and he didn't need to be. He should have taken the high road as a good leader often should do.

With that said I have to be honest I never thought they would get one of their top choices, nor did I think they would ever pony up the funds they needed to get said top choice but they did. I'm not sure on Fleck as I've seen too many "next big thing" coaches flame out at other institutions but hey you have to swing for the fences every once in a while. We finally got that next big thing at coach and that never happens around here and for that I'm all in on Fleck! (Plus he's just fun to listen to, cheesy or not!)
 

I've been meaning to post the same sentiment myself, so thank you. I knew Coach Kill was going to get us there unless his health got in the way, and sure enough, it did. The jury was out on Coach Claeys. I really like the guy. He assembled a great staff, and their coaching job in the bowl game was downright inspiring. All that said, there were obvious signs he was no Coach Kill, so I understand the move.

Either you believe in the potential of this university to have a first class football program, or you don't. There are people on this board in both categories. Bringing in Fleck is a manifestation of the grand ambition of a great football team here in the North. As much as some people ridicule that idea, it's not completely unrealistic.
 

All change requires a thread of discontent. They can't use losing games like they did when the brought Kill in for his culture change so they are now using a combination of fan apathy and a sexual transgression. Ok fine...it is how the world works. My issue remains that they did this by running over a good and decent man who deserved better. The character of Coyle/Kaler came through during the last month and it is wanting.

Good luck to Fleck and boys and Go Gophers!
 

Sawvell is another name I should have mentioned in my original post. It sounds highly unlikely he will return and I believe regardless of who his replacement is, it will be a downgrade. In the end most coaching changes come with the need to "turn this thing around" and when that language finds its way into this current situation, it makes me cringe.
 

I've run this thing through my head a hundred more times than I should have. It seems as though every iteration I process adds one more facet/viewpoint that further confuses it.

The problem is that every viewpoint has a valid basis. Claeys IS, as close as I can tell, a good and decent man. From a purely football coach POV, he is prototypical. Single, adult, solid upbringing- eats, sleeps, breathes football. His life, football and this team are/were inseparable. Sounds like a win-win. It was a win-win.

At least until some bonehead shows up and tips the table over.

Then it becomes time to sort the mess out..... and fifty factions want fifty different things.

Now you have regents, president, AD, Profs, coaches, other sports coaches, fans of rowing who feel like they aren't getting equal coverage, students (male and female) players, EOAA, victims, old fans, young fans, local media, national media, every interest group from feminist to skinhead to alien abduction support groups and a hundred others weighing in their opinions on the matter.

Worse yet, they ALL have valid opinions to SOME degree.

I feel for Claeys and the staff. I think they are good and honorable people. They shouldn't have to make sure that any of the people on his team are not pulling train or muling drugs or cheating in class or a thousand other stupid things.

But ultimately they are/were responsible. It may not be right, but it is reality. Blame it on fostering a hundred years of BMOC mentality.

Initially, I thought Coyle bungled this completely. Then it occurred to me that he must have had an inkling of what he needed to do a while ago. Maybe before he even took the position of AD here at MN. Maybe when he was interviewing coaches for the Syracuse position he met a coach that was an obvious winner, but was still a nobody. Maybe he said to himself, remember this guy.

One way or the other, i've come to the conclusion that there are no innocents here. Just ordinary people relying on empowered eighteen to twenty year old males to act responsibly. It would take a herculean effort by a lot of people and a VERY special coach to handle that. While Claeys may have been a good coach, he just wasn't the guy for the big picture. Coyle recognized that. There was no moving forward from that without Coyle being the bad guy.

In the end, he took a bite of the s*** sandwich and in the process let EVERY other coach know that he is not to be trifled with.
 

Schnauzer said:
I am all in on coach Fleck. Very excited. With that in mind I get irritated every time I hear the typical quotes that insinuate something (football wise) needed to change.

I was all in on coach Kill too. I admire him and I love the way he did his job. I loved the improvement the team made under him on the field and in the classroom. I am a little sad that his outstanding legacy is being kicked to the curb as if something was broken.

I like Tracy Claeys and feel he was a brilliant defensive mind that proved again and again he was up to the task of leading the team when Kill was out. But I worried about Claeys too. Could he be the dynamic face of the program? Could his introverted style win recruiting battles? It seemed like he was very capable of coaching up lower ranked recruits but limited in bringing in highly ranked recruits. I worry where the program was headed in the future under Claeys but was impressed with his abilities in the present.

Totally pumped every time I consider where the program can go under Fleck but very concerned about Kill's legacy.

And Coyle... the whole title IX thing seems to be very poorly handled and Kaler/Coyle operation seems to be unfair to Claeys. But, Coyle has put on a coach search that was perfectly executed compared to the painful Brewster and Kill processes. And for all their faults it seems like the administration is doing what they can to win. Love/hate.

Anyone else have these mixed emotions?

In the end I get this weird bipolar vibe.
Click to expand...
You perfectly summed up my feelings as well.
 


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