Minnesota State Football

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Ewert86PC said:
The MnSCU schools are using their funding to help attract better athletes and develop their athletics department. Something the U is retardedly refusing to do. They refuse to believe that the cart (academics) being in front of the horse (athletics) is not a viable economic model for attracting funding from alumni and other potential donors.
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So it is the problem of the MnSCU system that they are doing what you want the U to do? I don't get the venom.
 

Ewert86PC said:
The MnSCU schools are using their funding to help attract better athletes and develop their athletics department. Something the U is retardedly refusing to do. They refuse to believe that the cart (academics) being in front of the horse (athletics) is not a viable economic model for attracting funding from alumni and other potential donors.
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Yes, that's why the NSIC has historically been such a super power, with their whopping 24 scholarships. And since when is academics putting the cart before the horse? A college's reason for existing is academics.
 

RodentRampage said:
Yes, that's why the NSIC has historically been such a super power, with their whopping 24 scholarships. And since when is academics putting the cart before the horse? A college's reason for existing is academics.
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Please... the economics of academic funding has changed in the last 2 decades. Schools that need funding need to get money from successful athletic programs. This is not about the priorities of education, rather how we need to face the reality of increasing funding across the University. Unless you want to lobby the state to give MnSCU double digit negative budget growth while the U gets double digit positive budget growth.
 

Ewert86PC said:
Please... the economics of academic funding has changed in the last 2 decades. Schools that need funding need to get money from successful athletic programs. This is not about the priorities of education, rather how we need to face the reality of increasing funding across the University. Unless you want to lobby the state to give MnSCU double digit negative budget growth while the U gets double digit positive budget growth.
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.
 




I have no idea what you are talking about.

MnSCU is a completely separate system from the U of M system. It has been more or less since the two evolved in the 19th century, and the only time I can think of where there was a crossover was when Duluth went from being Duluth State to UMD. Are you saying that we should do what Wisconsin did, and merge the two systems?

In terms of sports, especially football, since this is the football forum, your argument doesn't hold water at all. The MNSCU schools in the NSIC barely spend any money on football. In fact, with Mankato and St. Cloud (and Duluth) moving back to the NSIC with the NCC disbanding, it's probably less, since the NSIC limits scholarships below the DII maximum (which the NCC allowed).

The only sport that maybe, possibly you could make an argument for your position in, would be hockey, with MSU, SCSU, BSU all going D1 for hockey alone, joining UM and UMD, because it can siphon off good players who might otherwise play for the Gophers. That said, there is no D2 hockey anymore, and teams are not allowed to play down to D3 and compete in the playoffs (UM-Crookston tried this for a couple years before dropping the program) so what choice did they have?

Or are you saying that the MNSCU schools (as well as UMM, UMD, and UMC) should just drop all sports entirely? Are you saying that the state should close all non UM public colleges (really stupid idea here).

What are you trying to say?
 

No, I am saying that the "primary" stream which the U seeks fund is through the state. They face strong competition from the MnSCU system. That system is working to improve it's public profile through academics, athletics and contribution to the general populace. This allows them to have a better perception and thus improves all three funding streams with less effort.

The U continues to "beg" the state for more money but because their perception is one of a vast black hole in to which the legislator tosses money, they don't get increases as easily. The return on research has waned in years stunting alumni donations, a black mark (deserved or not) on the U. This also creates resistance in the minds of students as to the quality of their education. This decreases the tuition base and increases the rate of tuition hikes. The athletic department struggles for accomplishments. More black marks in the minds of the general public.

Basically, MnSCU has made the most of the three funding streams they have access to, student enrollment, alumni donations and revenue producing athletics. While the U has done everything to stunt the growth of two streams, alumni donations and revenue producing athletics. A poor economic environment has worked against increasing alumni donations and students who feel they can afford an education at the U.

As a graduate (I can't consider myself an alumni due to the alumni associations poor support of Gopher athletics) I am embarrassed at the U. I can't say to someone that they will get a better education there. I can't say we have respectable athletics. Worst of all, I can't say they would be better off going there rather than another institution.
 

Ralph_Wiggum said:
There is room for another division 1 sports program in Minnesota. I think Mankato State going to FCS in football might be a good idea, but they'd have to go division 1 in other sports, but they are big enough to do it. And with the name change to Minn State it might be a good idea, but with the current economic situation it might not fly.

What would make sense would be for some private school to drop football and go division 1 in other sports and devote resources to basketball like Marquette and DePaul, but I doubt St. Thomas could drop football but another division 1 hoops program in the twin cities would make things very interesting.
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St. Thomas was considering going D1 in just basketball (staying D3 in everything else and KEEPING football) about 5-7 years back when they were contemplating plans for the new athletics facilities. I do not think there are any serious talks about it anymore, there were during the middle of the decade.
 



ProfessorBum said:
I teach at Mankato (...my Ph.D. is from the U of M--hence I'm a gopher fan).

Anyway, I have been advocating for years that MSU should go D-I--even if they have to drop football for Title 9 reasons. Both Dakotas now have two D-I schools. Wisconsin has four D-I schools. Iowa has four D-I schools. Good grief, the state of Mississippi has four D-1 schools, and they all offer PhD's. How Minnesota, as a state, has only a single D-I school is beyond me. As far as costs, MSU needs to just spend the money and make the move. If MSU wants to be considered a big-time university (and it does--its improving facilities, getting into doctoral education, etc.), then it just needs to eat the costs and spend that money. We spend tons of money beautifying the campus. Why? Because that's just what has to done to be a decent university. Same with athletics.
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The difference is that none of those states have pro sports or a major metropolitan area.
 

Ewert86PC said:
The MnSCU schools really chap my ace. They think they are so high and mighty, but all they do is steal state funding from the U. They can all stay D-II, D-III or JuCo AFAIC.
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Ewert86PC said:
No. Real. They have been built on the backs of the University system. Everytime I see SCSU, Mankato State and their ilk, I want to be come violently ill. Especially when I think of the extra funding they get, when the U could use it better.
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So from these posts it sounds like you irrationally harbor hatred because they 'steal' money from the U...

Ewert86PC said:
No, I am saying that the "primary" stream which the U seeks fund is through the state. They face strong competition from the MnSCU system. That system is working to improve it's public profile through academics, athletics and contribution to the general populace. This allows them to have a better perception and thus improves all three funding streams with less effort.

The U continues to "beg" the state for more money but because their perception is one of a vast black hole in to which the legislator tosses money, they don't get increases as easily. The return on research has waned in years stunting alumni donations, a black mark (deserved or not) on the U. This also creates resistance in the minds of students as to the quality of their education. This decreases the tuition base and increases the rate of tuition hikes. The athletic department struggles for accomplishments. More black marks in the minds of the general public.

Basically, MnSCU has made the most of the three funding streams they have access to, student enrollment, alumni donations and revenue producing athletics. While the U has done everything to stunt the growth of two streams, alumni donations and revenue producing athletics. A poor economic environment has worked against increasing alumni donations and students who feel they can afford an education at the U.

As a graduate (I can't consider myself an alumni due to the alumni associations poor support of Gopher athletics) I am embarrassed at the U. I can't say to someone that they will get a better education there. I can't say we have respectable athletics. Worst of all, I can't say they would be better off going there rather than another institution.
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And in this post it sounds like you admire them greatly and think that the U could learn quite a bit from the MnSCU system in terms of raising money and alumni support.

You've got me confused at this point.
 

Well, in politics, isn't stealing really a virtue to be admired? You have to "think" like a legislator to counter one.

Short version. MnSCU is exploiting the U Admin's idiocy regarding funding and feeding them their lunch because of it. The U is the 40 year old virgin who still goes to high school dances and proudly spouts off about her chastity.
 

Sounds like you should start a candidacy to have the MnSCU chancellor be the next U President.
 



highwayman said:
The difference is that none of those states have pro sports or a major metropolitan area.
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Huh? Did the Packers, Bucks, and Brewers close up shop?

Also, Milwaukee is not a major metropolitan area?
 

ruralgopher said:
Sounds like you should start a candidacy to have the MnSCU chancellor be the next U President.
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Are you kidding?? The real money redistributing socialists would be up in arms! :cool:
 

dpodoll68 said:
Huh? Did the Packers, Bucks, and Brewers close up shop?

Also, Milwaukee is not a major metropolitan area?
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I stand by my statement.

Laugh. Come on, you can do it.

FYI Milwaukee is the 35th biggest market. Just barely "major"...
 

discochris said:
Allegedly, both Mankato and SCSU at least investigated going D1 when the NCC folded. Part of the reason was that while the NCC and NSIC are both D2 conferences, the NSIC limits scholarships even below what the NCAA allows for D2. (This obviously didn't hurt UMD, who also complained about that, since they won a title.)

They chose not to go to D1 I think primarily for financial reasons. You have to have a very engaged alumni base who is willing to help fund something like that. You also have to have a fan base for your teams that will support such a thing, and with the exception of hockey, which is already D1, that doesn't exist at those schools. As someone who attended a school in the NSIC, there really isn't much interest in the teams there, and a lot of the schools are suitcase campuses where people go home on weekends.
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The only way SCSU or MSU could move to DI is if they drop football.
 

Rosemountian said:
St. Thomas was considering going D1 in just basketball (staying D3 in everything else and KEEPING football) about 5-7 years back when they were contemplating plans for the new athletics facilities. I do not think there are any serious talks about it anymore, there were during the middle of the decade.
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That wouldn't be allowed. It's only allowed for programs like Colorado College in hockey, and Johns Hopkins in Lacrosse, that are grandfathered in. No new D3 programs will be allowed to play up in one sport only.

This article explains it very well.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/6585/four_ncaa_schools_retain_division_i_privileges/
 


Rosemountian said:
St. Thomas was considering going D1 in just basketball (staying D3 in everything else and KEEPING football) about 5-7 years back when they were contemplating plans for the new athletics facilities. I do not think there are any serious talks about it anymore, there were during the middle of the decade.
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The NCAA doesn't allow that. You can move one sport up, but that sport cannot be football or basketball.
 

RodentRampage said:
The NCAA doesn't allow that. You can move one sport up, but that sport cannot be football or basketball.
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And, as mentioned in the article I linked above, no more D3 schools will be able to move a team to D1. It's only teams that were in that situation when the bylaw was passed (and it mostly affects hockey anyway). I think the reasoning behind it is that D3 schools can't offer scholarships (officially of course) and they didn't want that to change for one sport only.
 

discochris said:
That wouldn't be allowed. It's only allowed for programs like Colorado College in hockey, and Johns Hopkins in Lacrosse, that are grandfathered in. No new D3 programs will be allowed to play up in one sport only.

This article explains it very well.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/6585/four_ncaa_schools_retain_division_i_privileges/
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Like I said, the last serious talks were 5-7 years ago. Which would put it before this was voted on. Apparently it is not allowed now for any new programs. They would have to move up to DII or D1 in everything, if they wanted to now. UST may move up to DII eventually, but it wouldn't be in the next 10-15 years.
Now that they have the football program rolling, it is easy to see that they don't really belong in the MIAC. They have more students, more facilities, more alumni, and more big donors than any of the other schools. If their replacement coach (for Caruso when he leaves for a DI job in the next few) is halfway decent, they will surpass St. Johns as the dominant football program in the conference. They are already dominant in everything else they carry.
 

UST, if you count grad students, is much larger than any other school in the MIAC. The one reason I could see them not moving up to D2, is that, at least here in MN, the MIAC gets a lot more media coverage than any of the D2 schools in the state, for whatever reason.

Having attended a D2 school myself, I can tell you that nobody cared one whit about any of the sports programs, and I've heard it to be true at most of the other state universities, with the exception of those with D1 hockey.
On the flip side, I have a few friends who went to MIAC schools, and sports were a big deal at most of them and still are. I've often thought it weird that Concordia-St. Paul decided to move up to D2, rather than try and move from the UMAC to the MIAC, where they'd be a better fit. (that and changing their name from Comets, which was cool, to Golden Bears, which is lame.)

One thing quite different about Wisconsin, is almost all the UW schools except Green Bay, Madison and Milwaukee are D3. There's only one D2 school in the state - UW Parkside. I wonder if that saves the state some money.
 

discochris said:
UST, if you count grad students, is much larger than any other school in the MIAC. The one reason I could see them not moving up to D2, is that, at least here in MN, the MIAC gets a lot more media coverage than any of the D2 schools in the state, for whatever reason.

Having attended a D2 school myself, I can tell you that nobody cared one whit about any of the sports programs, and I've heard it to be true at most of the other state universities, with the exception of those with D1 hockey.
On the flip side, I have a few friends who went to MIAC schools, and sports were a big deal at most of them and still are. I've often thought it weird that Concordia-St. Paul decided to move up to D2, rather than try and move from the UMAC to the MIAC, where they'd be a better fit. (that and changing their name from Comets, which was cool, to Golden Bears, which is lame.)

One thing quite different about Wisconsin, is almost all the UW schools except Green Bay, Madison and Milwaukee are D3. There's only one D2 school in the state - UW Parkside. I wonder if that saves the state some money.
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Yup, i am sure it would save the Mnscu system money to be D3. The reasons you mention are exactly why UST won't make the switch to D2 unless they are 100% sure they want to then make the switch to D1. You don't break up the rivalries, tradition, and atmosphere to go D2. I don't think that will happen any time soon. They have other priorities first. St. Thomas would build a medical school before they would change divisions. If it happens ever, it would be another 20 years.

If they could do basketball or Hockey only, I think they would consider it. But they no longer can.
 

Minnesota State (as its officially called) has one of the top 1-2 Division II basketball facilities in the nation and would not need any upgrading if the university wanted to someday make the transition. The Taylor Center makes many D-I facilities look out of date. Personally, I find nothing wrong with having just one Division I school in the state. Sure, I think its a little odd, but the number of high-quality Division II programs is exceptional. I enjoy D-II athletics -- probably because I grew up in Winona.
 

discochris said:
I can't find the exact info now, but I thought that one of the requirements for moving up to D1 in football, even at the FCS (1AA) level, you have to have a certain level of attendance, or at least stadium capacity, and I'm not sure either MSU or SCSU have that. Clearly, NDSU and UND always have. I think the only way it could work would be if the schools dropped football. SCSU is already discussing that for financial reasons. Plus, if you drop football, but go D1 across the rest of the board, it will save a ton of money because of Title IX, simply because you won't have to have as many women's sports.

There are quite a few D1 teams that don't have football. Marquette comes to mind.[/QUOTE

The state university system should drop Moorhead State altogether.
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Swede said:
discochris said:
I can't find the exact info now, but I thought that one of the requirements for moving up to D1 in football, even at the FCS (1AA) level, you have to have a certain level of attendance, or at least stadium capacity, and I'm not sure either MSU or SCSU have that. Clearly, NDSU and UND always have. I think the only way it could work would be if the schools dropped football. SCSU is already discussing that for financial reasons. Plus, if you drop football, but go D1 across the rest of the board, it will save a ton of money because of Title IX, simply because you won't have to have as many women's sports.

There are quite a few D1 teams that don't have football. Marquette comes to mind.[/QUOTE

The state university system should drop Moorhead State altogether.
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Hey now. That's where I went to school! From the standpoint of athletics, they could easily drop the programs and save the money. As I said, nobody cared about sports there - the students didn't (as I mentioned in another post, it's in many ways a suitcase school), and there's no coverage locally because they're a distant third in interest in the FM area behind NDSU and Concordia. The facilities are horrendous too. I graduated 15 years ago, and I don't think they've upgraded a thing.

I couldn't see them shutting down the school though. It's bigger than BSU and SMSU, and the same size as WSU.

If any public college in this state gets shut down, I suspect it's going to be Crookston. If a MnSCU school goes, I would put my money on SMSU in Marshall, just based on size.
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This is a little off topic, but does anybody know who Mankato's play-by-play man on the radio is? I wish they'd can Dave Lee and have this guy fill in for him. 100 times better.
 


I recently visited the Minnesota State- Mankato campus and it is nothing like I remembered. It is state of the art and beautiful.

I read an article on the name change. They changed for name recognition purposes.

Minnesota State University 1999-2003
Minnesota State University - Mankato (2003+)

If any other school goes D1 is has to be Mankato
 

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