Winfield and Durr were both ready as true frosh last year. Hardin was ready the year before that to contribute meaningful minutes right away. Shenault, Craig James, Myrick, Murray, Travis, Antonio Johnson, Cedric Thompson, Derek Wells, Brock Vereen all played as freshmen. All three of Harris, Beck and HandyHolly have better offer sheets than any of those guys.
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Winfield and Durr were both ready as true frosh last year. Hardin was ready the year before that to contribute meaningful minutes right away. Shenault, Craig James, Myrick, Murray, Travis, Antonio Johnson, Cedric Thompson, Derek Wells, Brock Vereen all played as freshmen. All three of Harris, Beck and HandyHolly have better offer sheets than any of those guys.
Pompous Elitist
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Yes it's not ideal but not sure why these talented guys can't or won't be able to play.
Another Sawvel recruit that got away was Nate Andrews who flipped to FSU late in the recruiting cycle. He ended up playing in 14 games, led the team in INTs and generally had an outstanding year as a true freshman for a national title team.
Another Sawvel recruit that got away was Nate Andrews who flipped to FSU late in the recruiting cycle. He ended up playing in 14 games, led the team in INTs and generally had an outstanding year as a true freshman for a national title team.
John Galt
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Winfield was a freshman all-American and still didn't start until midway through the season. If you think that's normal and can be expected, I really don't know what to say.
Durr didn't play on defense until the bowl game. All of the other guys you listed played primarily on special teams as freshman and got very limited (if any) reps on defense as a freshamn. That includes Murray, Thompson and Vereen, all of who spent some time in the NFL. Sometimes freshman will surprise and make their way into the 2-deeps. Expecting it to happen and saying that we "should be better" because Joe Blow recruit is on campus is a stretch. Sometimes highly recruited players never pan out (i.e. Jeff Jones), and sometimes it takes a few years for them to figure it out (Michael Carter).
John Galt
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With the exception of Winfield, what true freshman DB has played significant reps on defense in the last 10 years?
dpodoll68
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They both took multiple official/unofficial visits. Furthermore, summer session starts on Monday, so I'm pretty sure they're both on campus right now.
dpodoll68
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KiAnte Hardin in 2015
Craig James in 2014
Antonio Johnson in 2012
Damarius Travis in 2012
Cedric Thompson in 2011
Derrick Wells in 2011
I could keep going, but this is boring and an oddly bizarre argument for you to attempt to make.
Pompous Elitist
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Like I said it's not ideal but you have to consider how often do teams need to play true freshmen. Then I look at the quality of the recruits. Have we had players at DB that were as talented or as recruited by other programs? Winfield was not highly ranked because of height. He was ready to play. I expect we will get quality minutes from the new, clearly talented freshmen and by the time the meat of the schedule comes they will be figuring things out.
Antonio Shenault:
2015 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Played in 12 games and started one • recorded 15 tackles (11 solo) • broke up a pass. Game-by-Game: • totaled a career-high six tackles in extensive action against Ohio • recorded three tackles (two solo) at Northwestern • tallied three solo tackles and broke up a pass at Purdue • touted a pair of tackles versus Illinois
Kiante Hardin: 2015 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Played in all 13 games • made 13 tackles, including 1.0 tackle-for-loss • broke up a pass • served as team's primary returner during final half of the season • • named the team's Outstanding Defensive Freshman of the Year. Game-by-Game: Tallied one tackle in first career game against TCU • saw extensive action on defense, recording five tackles with one coming behind the line of scrimmage at Ohio State • tallied five tackles, one pass breakup and totaled 165 return yards versus Illinois added a solo tackle against Wisconsin
Craig James: 2014 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Played in all 13 games • tallied eight tackles and three pass breakups. Game-by-Game: Notched one tackle and broke up two passes as he made Minnesota and collegiate debut against Eastern Illinois • made two tackles against Middle Tennessee • made one tackle and returned four punts for 66 yards at Michigan • broke up one pass against Northwestern • made two tackles against Purdue asssisted on one tackle against Iowa • played against Ohio State • made one tackle against Missouri.
Jalen Myrick: 2013 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Played in the final 11 games of the season • recorded four tackles. played on both special teams and in the secondary at Michigan, where he had one tackle • competed against Nebraska and made one tackle at Indiana • played against Penn State and made one tackle against Wisconsin • saw action on special teams and at cornerback at Michigan State where he made one tackle • competed against Syracuse.
Antonio Johnson:
2012 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Played in 12 games and started vs. Texas Tech. Game-by-Game: Made his Minnesota and collegiate debut at UNLV • saw action vs. New Hampshire and was credited with his first career tackle • played against Western Michigan • had one solo tackle at Wisconsin • assisted on one tackle vs. Michigan • assisted on two tackles at Nebraska • recorded one solo tackle vs. Michigan State • made six tackles and had one pass breakup vs. Texas Tech.
Travis: 2012 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Played in all 13 games and made eight tackles. Game-by-Game: Made his Minnesota and collegiate debut at UNLV • recorded his first career tackle in a win against Syracuse • had three tackles at Wisconsin • made one tackle vs. Michigan and one at Nebraska • notched two tackles vs. Texas Tech.
Cedric: 2011 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Appeared in seven games • recorded 16 tackles (10 solo). Game-by-Game: Played his first career game at Purdue and recorded six tackles • tallied five tackles vs. Nebraska • notched two tackles in 22-21 victory against Iowa • appeared at Michigan State • had two assisted tackles versus Wisconsin and played at Northwestern • recorded a solo tackle in 27-7 win against Illinois.
Derek Wells: 2011 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Appeared in 11 games • recorded eight tackles. Game-by-Game: Appeared in season opener at USC and home opener versus New Mexico State • notched first career tackle in 29-23 home victory against Miami (Ohio) • appeared against North Dakota State • tallied an assist at Michigan • recorded first career solo tackle at Purdue • appeared vs. Nebraska • did not see action vs. Iowa • assisted on two tackles at Michigan State • notched two solo tackles vs. Wisconsin • appeared at Northwestern • garnered one assisted tackle in 27-7 victory against Illinois.
Brock Vereen:
2010 • FRESHMAN SEASON: Appeared in nine games with four starts • recorded 10 total tackles (seven solo). Game-by-Game: Appeared against Middle Tennessee State and South Dakota but did not record any stats • earned his first-career start against USC, making four tackles • started against Northern Illinois and made four tackles • appeared against Wisconsin • started at cornerback in Minnesota's win against Iowa and contributed two tackles
John Galt
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I think everyone but you realized the point I was making.
dpodoll68
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Oh no, I got the point perfectly. Articulate your point more accurately.
John Galt
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Like I said, everyone mentioned played primarily on special teams. Vereen started 4 games, Johnson 1, and no one else made a start. Not even future NFLers.
GopherWeatherGuy
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So 5 of the 9 played as Freshman in these seasons:
2010 - 3 wins
2011 - 3 wins
2012 - 6 wins
The other 4 were backups to future NFL'ers that were JRs/SRs. So having a number of true Freshman playing significant time this year is far more comparable to the 2010-2012 seasons than the latter.
dpodoll68
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Wrong.
Oh, so now the goalpost has been moved to starts? I didn't realize that it needed to be explained to you that "starts" and "played significant reps" are very different criteria.
Holy balls, now they have to be future NFLers to meet your criteria? Did you have to rent an excavator and a crane to move the goalpost that far?
short ornery norwegian
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I have read elsewhere (not sure what this is based on) that Fleck's master plan is supposedly to get a lot younger over the next 2-3 years by playing "his guys" - meaning, the recruits that he and his staff will be bringing in.
IF this is accurate, better get used to a lot of FR and RS FR playing. Whether that will result in success on the field remains to be seen.
IF this is accurate, better get used to a lot of FR and RS FR playing. Whether that will result in success on the field remains to be seen.
A_Slab_of_Bacon
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Jerry did similar things..... paid the price, but I suspect he knew he would. But the team was a mess so it is hard to know HOW much risk PJ is willing to take on FR playing.
John Galt
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I guess we'll disagree on the term "significant reps."
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When I've heard him talk about that he's saying that we lose a lot of seniors this year and the team as a whole will be younger. I'm not sure that's any more true than other years. I assume the reason for playing younger guys next year would be a combination of seniors graduating and his guys coming in.
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My guess is 9 wins this season.
Will I be surprised if we only win 6? Not really. Will a be disappointed? Yes. Will I be going off the rails, no. It wouldn't be unheard of, but I'm expecting more from Fleck based on the hype, mostly of his own creation. 7-8 isn't unreasonable, and I probably won't be very disappointed with that, depending on how the losses happen. If we get blown out of games this season, I will be extremely disappointed.
The thing that a lot of the folks who don't want to commit to expectations that the increased investment in Gopher Football should deliver is that we're quick to say what we lost will kill us, without looking at the losses some of our division rivals incurred. Changes in the schedule are somewhat offset by Iowa having no QB and 1 receiver. Nebraska having a new QB, and new D coordinator. I've seen the NE reviews talk about the experienced secondary they have - that has been torched repeatedly in the past two years. Michigan's defense is going to really, really, really miss Peppers. Their offense will miss him too. He was to their defense what Tyrone Carter was to ours back in the day.
Net, Net. It's OK to have expectations of better than 7 wins. It's also going to be understandable, potentially, depending on how the season plays out, if that doesn't happen. If Fleck has thrown in the towel on this season because he doesn't have "his guys in there" yet, that's not Elite, and he should be held accountable by the fans. If we improve on the field but lose more, that points to positive signs. I'll be disappointed, but not angry if we win 7 games and play better, progress through the year.
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When you take over a program that is a dumpster fire, like what Brewster left behind, and Western Michigan prior to Fleck, you play the best players on the team for the system, and often that will be your younger players. IF Fleck throws in the towel and plays for the future this year, that suggests we did not hire the coach we think we did. There is a ton of talent on this team, and a talented coach will get the most out of the players he has on the team today while building for the future.
joshvanklomp
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When he's said that, he's said we'll be younger this year and even younger in 2018. Pretty sure he's said that, referring to specific position groups though. Like DL, for example. We won't be super young there this year but will be much younger there in a year.
And while you might think it's the same thing as being younger, we'll also be more inexperienced at certain positions. Namely QB.
These things don't necessarily mean will be worse at these positions, but rather that there will be uncertainty going into the season. You can prepare all you want in practice, but you never know what you have for certain until the first game.
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Pretty fair post overall. The portion I put in bold, I did because I don't really agree that Fleck has created a whole lot of hype with his own words claiming that he will win a lot right away. In fact, I would argue that he has been closer to Kill in that he is under-selling what he will do in the short term. The hype for early success has largely come from the outside based on his ridiculously successful track record (if that's what you meant 'by his own creation' I apologize and agree).
Every Gopher game matters to me - don't get me wrong, so I am not 'punting' on the next couple of years. My only argument for Fleck is that when we reconvene in 2020, I think we will be in a better place as a program with Fleck than we would have been with Claeys or whatever replacement we could have gotten in the interim. Firing a coach after a 9 win (no asterisks) season is a large risk - but I argue that it was an intelligent risk, and a program like ours needs to take such risks. We will see if it works out.
A_Slab_of_Bacon
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Yeah I don't expect him to go the full first year Jerry mode. I agree it would be a worrisome sign.
short ornery norwegian
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With Fleck, I would say the operative word is "noise" as opposed to "hype." He has talked about winning Rose Bowls and Conference titles, but to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't put that in a context of "we're going to win X number of games next year," or "we're going to be conference champs by x year."
Instead, I would say that Fleck has brought attention to himself, and the program, mainly by virtue of his personality. He is SO different than the previous coach, and so out-there in his personality, that it's going to draw a lot of attention. For better or worse, people at the national level are going to be watching the Gopher FB program to see how this young, brash fast-talking coach does.
If the team plays well and wins a respectable number of games, that will definitely elevate the status of the Gopher FB program on a national level. The concern is - what happens if they don't win right away.
***(this is NOT a prediction - just offering a possibility) Let's say for sake of argument that the Gophs have a less-than-perfect season - win 4 or 5 games. IF that happens, there will be a lot of nay-sayers coming out of the woodwork to dump on Fleck - "see, he talks big, but he can't produce. His style won't work at a major conference" and so forth.
That is the double-edged sword of a coach like Fleck. He draws attention to himself and the program, but that also raises the stakes for national reaction. Like it or not, no one is going to be indifferent about Fleck. This is a Love It or Hate It type of situation. For the sake of the program, I sure hope they get off to a good start and have a solid season.
Instead, I would say that Fleck has brought attention to himself, and the program, mainly by virtue of his personality. He is SO different than the previous coach, and so out-there in his personality, that it's going to draw a lot of attention. For better or worse, people at the national level are going to be watching the Gopher FB program to see how this young, brash fast-talking coach does.
If the team plays well and wins a respectable number of games, that will definitely elevate the status of the Gopher FB program on a national level. The concern is - what happens if they don't win right away.
***(this is NOT a prediction - just offering a possibility) Let's say for sake of argument that the Gophs have a less-than-perfect season - win 4 or 5 games. IF that happens, there will be a lot of nay-sayers coming out of the woodwork to dump on Fleck - "see, he talks big, but he can't produce. His style won't work at a major conference" and so forth.
That is the double-edged sword of a coach like Fleck. He draws attention to himself and the program, but that also raises the stakes for national reaction. Like it or not, no one is going to be indifferent about Fleck. This is a Love It or Hate It type of situation. For the sake of the program, I sure hope they get off to a good start and have a solid season.
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I get what you're saying, but I don't believe people are so blinded that it has to come in Year 1. He's not walking into a Michigan or OSU situation.
IF your scenario happened and they followed it up the next year with an 8 or 9 win season, are people nationally going to say "well, he didn't do it in Year 1 though, so he still talks big but didn't produce fast enough"? I don't think so. If there's struggles, they'll just disappear and won't talk about us (unless you're talking about Internet trolls). There won't be a segment on SportsCenter about why PJ Fleck couldn't be successful in Year 1.
Locally, we are the ones who get caught up in the year-to-year drama of what one season means for the program.
die hard gopher
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I agree with you. I recall Myrick and Craig James playing mostly on special teams and playing somewhat sparingly at CB. They definitely got more than just in garbage time snaps and got some reps in competitive Big Ten games but they definitely weren't relied upon terribly heavily or weren't regular rotation guys. Same with Murray. Guys like Mcghee and Ayinde this year, even when they didn't start, are what I would consider guys who got "significant reps, or rather a significant amount of reps. Myrick, James, Murray etc. definitely didn't get that type of playing time as freshman and thus I would say not a ton of "significant reps." Don't really remember much with Wells, Vereen or Cedric.
dpodoll68
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I didn't cite Murray or Myrick, because they mostly played on special teams. Craig James absolutely played significant reps on defense, as did the other true freshman DBs I mentioned. Again, this is a really bizarre argument to attempt to make.
Pompous Elitist
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Shenault, Thomas, Craighton, Durr (maybe)
Winfield
Huff, McGhee, Dipre, Ayinde
Justus Harris, Beck, Handey Holley will not need to start unless something catastophic occurs. If they are as talented as they look to be they should be getting more comfortable in their roles by the second half of the season.
Winfield
Huff, McGhee, Dipre, Ayinde
Justus Harris, Beck, Handey Holley will not need to start unless something catastophic occurs. If they are as talented as they look to be they should be getting more comfortable in their roles by the second half of the season.
John Galt
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100% agree. Ayinde and McGhee without a doubt played significant reps this year. None of the freshman with the possible exception of Vereen did.
It's funny that the same posters who are now claiming they played significant reps were furious at the time for Kill burning their redshirts...
Spoofin
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First, I call total BS that you remember who did/did not agree with burning RS on players from years ago. 100% BS.
Next, why on earth would acknowledging a player played significant reps disqualify one from thinking they should have been red shirted? Seem to go more in line than contradict. Your point bolded above makes zero sense. ZERO.
In summary - your entire post is worthless and nothing more than an attempt to build support in this thread as your main take here has already been exposed (by many posters) as Wrong (with a capital W). Stop digging.
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