Minnehaha Academy's Craig McDonald Ruled Ineligible to Play His Senior Year.

[Buck_Buchanan]

But again, it goes back to the original decision by the parents to start the kid in school at an earlier age.

I can appreciate that the kid is paying the price for a decision made by his parents - but it was their decision. They don't get to turn around now and say "oh, please excuse or ignore the rules in this case." that's not how it works.

Look, I am not a fan of the MSHSL. But in this case, the MSHSL is enforcing a rule that is in the books. you can't fault them for that.

If you start allowing kids an extra year because of "social development," then you're creating a loophole that some people will try to exploit for athletic reasons.

And BTW - when I was in HS, I knew a kid from another school who had to stop playing midway through his senior year - because he turned 20 years old. He had been held back twice for academic reasons. Dumb as a post - but a good basketball player.

The irony in this situation in:

1. If he repeated 8th for academic reasons, he and his parents made an exceptional decision. Receiving a Dartmouth offer is no small feat if he struggled academically in those years . And quite frankly, something that should be celebrated IMO.

2. If he was Redshirted for athletics, then the MSHSL is applying its General Eligibility (Rule 8 / 12 Semesters to participate in grades 7-12) correctly. That Rule 8 exists for the reason you suggested -- people exploit it. Now days, they get around it by making this decision prior to Grade 7.

He's an incredible player, I wish him well, and will certainly enjoy watching him play at the next level. And, I want to be clear that the why behind their family decision back in 8th grade is none of my business - their family / their decision.

 

[Gophers_4life]

The irony in this situation:

1. If he repeated 8th for academic reasons, his parents made an exceptional decision. Receiving a Dartmouth offer is quite a feat if he struggled academically in those years. And quite frankly, something that should be celebrated IMO.

2. If he was Redshirted for athletics, then the MSHSL is applying its General Eligibility (Rule 8 / 12 Semesters to participate in grades 7-12) correctly. That Rule 8 exists for the reason you suggested -- people exploit it. Now days, they get around it by making this decision prior to Grade 7.

He's an incredible player, I wish him well, and will certainly enjoy watching him play at the next level.

If he’s less than 19 and hasn’t played more than 3 seasons in grades 9-12, it’s humanly impossible for him to have gained an unfair advantage.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

What happens in grades 7-8 is entirely irrelevant, IF you or an age cap on it.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

If he’s less than 19 and hasn’t played more than 3 seasons in grades 9-12, it’s humanly impossible for him to have gained an unfair advantage.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Of course there is an advantage. I am not sure if it is unfair or not, that is obviously an opinion. But it's absolutely humanly possible for an advantage to occur by being 19 rather than 18, it's the reason why it is such a common practice. Literally, everyone agrees that it's advantageous.

Unfair or not, that's an opinion.

 

[Gophers_4life]

But it's absolutely humanly possible for an advantage to occur by being 19 rather than 18.

......................

I know that you’re a native English speaker, and that you’re very intelligent and read well.

So I’m completely baffled how you read a clearly stated “less than 19” and then write that.


And for complete clarity, I’m saying he doesn’t turn 19 before the end of the season.


If he’s already 19 or turns 19 this year, that completely changes it for me.

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

If he’s less than 19 and hasn’t played more than 3 seasons in grades 9-12, it’s humanly impossible for him to have gained an unfair advantage.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

What happens in grades 7-8 is entirely irrelevant, IF you or an age cap on it.

To you, maybe others (I can't speak on their behalf).

To the MSHSL it is entirely relevant according to their General Eligibility Policies. Rule 8. 12 Semesters for all kids grades 7-12. They applied their rule (not mine or anyone else's) correctly.

Eligibility Rules are communicated by Activities Directors, League Members, and Coaching Staffs across the entire state.

 

[Gophers_4life]

according to their General Eligibility Policies. Rule 8. 12 Semesters for all kids grades 7-12. They applied their rule (not mine or anyone else's) correctly.

Eligibility Rules are communicated by Activities Directors, League Members, and Coaching Staffs across the entire state.

That’s not an argument, it’s just a statement of what has occurred. I don’t expect you to argue with me, that’s fine. I’m simply saying I disagree with what occurred, and provided an argument for why I feel that way.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

......................

I know that you’re a native English speaker, and that you’re very intelligent and read well.

So I’m completely baffled how you read a clearly stated “less than 19” and then write that.


And for complete clarity, I’m saying he doesn’t turn 19 before the end of the season.


If he’s already 19 or turns 19 this year, that completely changes it for me.

Because 18 and 11 months is closer to 19 than 18 and 1 month is to 17.

There is an advantage to being older, always. I'm not saying it's unfair, but it is absolutely advantageous to be older rather than younger.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Because 18 and 11 months is closer to 19 than 18 and 1 month is to 17.

There is an advantage to being older, always. I'm not saying it's unfair, but it is absolutely advantageous to be older rather than younger.

You said being 19 in post #63. That is different than what you just said now.

There has to be a line somewhere. Is 18 and 1hr too much? Etc etc. Not an argument I’m interested in. I drew the line at precisely 19 years old. Is an athlete who is 18 and 364days old on the state champion likely to have an advantage over someone who is less than 18? Maybe. But again not the argument I’m interested in.

Maybe you draw the line at 18 and 180 days on the date of the state championship. There is some line somewhere that makes sense.


I’m interested in saying that 4 seasons in grades 9-12 and an age cutoff is far superior to the way they have it now. That’s it.

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

That’s not an argument, it’s just a statement of what has occurred. I don’t expect you to argue with me, that’s fine. I’m simply saying I disagree with what occurred, and provided an argument for why I feel that way.

Sounds good. Appreciate the perspective.

 

[Pete smith]

You said being 19 in post #63. That is different than what you just said now.

There has to be a line somewhere. Is 18 and 1hr too much? Etc etc. Not an argument I’m interested in. I drew the line at precisely 19 years old. Is an athlete who is 18 and 364days old on the state champion likely to have an advantage over someone who is less than 18? Maybe. But again not the argument I’m interested in.

Maybe you draw the line at 18 and 180 days on the date of the state championship. There is some line somewhere that makes sense.


I’m interested in saying that 4 seasons in grades 9-12 and an age cutoff is far superior to the way they have it now. That’s it.

Not sure what happens with those wrestlers who wrestle with the high school during their 8th. grade. Or those 8th graders who run varsity cross country and track in 8th grade. I think Rosemount has a couple 8th graders on their track team.

 

[GFBfan]

Not sure what happens with those wrestlers who wrestle with the high school during their 8th. grade. Or those 8th graders who run varsity cross country and track in 8th grade. I think Rosemount has a couple 8th graders on their track team.

Or even 7th graders who compete.
The rule as it is now covers all those situations and doesn't have any big loopholes that can be exploited.

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

Not sure what happens with those wrestlers who wrestle with the high school during their 8th. grade. Or those 8th graders who run varsity cross country and track in 8th grade. I think Rosemount has a couple 8th graders on their track team.

Those activities (and others) are why the Semester Portion of the Rule exists and includes all student athletes Grades 7-12. I'm not sure when they went to the Semester Count but activities such as those you mention played a big portion in the creation of it.

The Age Rule Portion of General Eligibility is Rule 2. A student who turns 20 during the 11th or 12th semester since
first entering the 7th grade shall be allowed to participate through the completion of the 12th semester. Adapted athletes are eligible to
participate until their 22nd birthday, provided they meet all other eligibility requirements.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Examples such as these are why the Semester Portion of the Rule exists and includes all student athletes Grades 7-12. I'm not sure when they went to the Semester Count but activities such as those you mention played a big portion in the creation of it.

The Age Rule Portion of General Eligibility is Rule 2. A student who turns 20 during the 11th or 12th semester since
first entering the 7th grade shall be allowed to participate through the completion of the 12th semester. Adapted athletes are eligible to
participate until their 22nd birthday, provided they meet all other eligibility requirements.

This stuff is complex.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Not sure what happens with those wrestlers who wrestle with the high school during their 8th. grade. Or those 8th graders who run varsity cross country and track in 8th grade. I think Rosemount has a couple 8th graders on their track team.

Competing on varsity in 7th or 8th grade doesn’t allow you to get more than four seasons of competition during the years of your 9th through 12th grades.

That they were exceptional that young does not prove we should be punishing those who were not exceptional that young.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Those activities (and others) are why the Semester Portion of the Rule exists and includes all student athletes Grades 7-12. I'm not sure when they went to the Semester Count but activities such as those you mention played a big portion in the creation of it.

The Age Rule Portion of General Eligibility is Rule 2. A student who turns 20 during the 11th or 12th semester since
first entering the 7th grade shall be allowed to participate through the completion of the 12th semester. Adapted athletes are eligible to
participate until their 22nd birthday, provided they meet all other eligibility requirements.

Very easy solution: change the semester rule to 8 semesters grades 9-12 and change the age rule to 19 during the 7th or 8th semester.

Solved and done, and doesn’t unfairly punish students like this who didn’t gain an athletic advantage in his unique circumstance.

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

This stuff is complex.

Translation:
An athlete can compete at age 19-20 provided they were held back prior to 7th grade year.

If an athlete repeats a grade Grades 7-12, regardless of the reason = 12 semester clock.

If parents need to do this for their child's athletic, social, academic benefit (doesn't matter the reason and nobody's business, including MSHSL's) --- that decision must be done prior to the 7th grade year. Once your in 7th grade, it becomes the MSHSL's business in terms of enforcing and communicating their rules / policies.

 

[Word]

Competing on varsity in 7th or 8th grade doesn’t allow you to get more than four seasons of competition during the years of your 9th through 12th grades.

That they were exceptional that young does not prove we should be punishing those who were not exceptional that young.

As soon as 7th and 8th graders were allowed to play high school sports, things got a lot more complicated. Not sure when that started but I know it's been a while.

 

[Gophers_4life]

One other thing to add: the semester clock rule — by itself — can never be ironclad. Parents determined enough can just hold their kids back before the start of the clock grades, whenever they are. It’s in conjunction with the max age rule, that the regulations have merit.

Then, it’s just a matter of twiddling with the parameters of the two rules in order to achieve the best outcomes. I vote 8 semesters grades 9-12 and max age of turning 19 during semester 7 or 8.

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

One other thing to add: the semester clock rule — by itself — can never be ironclad. Parents determined enough can just hold their kids back before the start of the clock grades, whenever they are. It’s in conjunction with the max age rule, that the regulations have merit.

Then, it’s just a matter of twiddling with the parameters of the two rules in order to achieve the best outcomes. I vote 8 semesters grades 9-12 and max age of turning 19 during semester 7 or 8.

Would you be in favor of the MSHSL just being a 9-12 grade organization and going to no varsity level competition for athletes in grades 7-8?

 

[Gophers_4life]

Would you be in favor of the MSHSL just being a 9-12 grade organization and going to no varsity level competition for athletes in grades 7-8?

The universal thing in competition is: playing up is on you, but you shouldn’t be allowed to play down.

Most importantly, I would say that 7th and 8th grade is when your body is changing the most. You’re the most awkward. It makes zero sense to me to limit what someone does in grade 12 based on what they did in grade 7 or 8, **if** they meet the other baseline criteria.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Also why arbitrarily grade 7? What if an exceptional 6th grade wants to run cross country or wrestle on varsity?

Anything pre grade 9 is my arbitrary cutoff. AGAIN, keeping in mind the max age rule.

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

Also why arbitrarily grade 7? What if an exceptional 6th grade wants to run cross country or wrestle on varsity?

Anything pre grade 9 is my arbitrary cutoff. AGAIN, keeping in mind the max age rule.

I think that exists because Jr. High was traditionally 7-9 grade and they felt a need to have a cutoff somewhere. There are many exceptional 6th graders in our state in those 2 activities that could, in fact, compete at high levels in those 2 activities you used as examples.

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

As soon as 7th and 8th graders were allowed to play high school sports, things got a lot more complicated. Not sure when that started but I know it's been a while.

They've been allowed to compete as long as I can remember 1970s maybe?


Exceptional 7th grader [sport redacted] finishes as a Runner-Up in another State.

Same Exceptional athlete [sport redacted] moves to Minnesota and Re-Enrolls 7th grader and Wins State Title. That is probably when Semester Rule started.
Maybe not.

Closing a "loophole" to avoid a similar situation repeating if it happened with MSHSL Membership Schools.

 

[Gophers_4life]

They've been allowed to compete as long as I can remember 1970s maybe?


Exceptional 7th grader [sport redacted] finishes as a Runner-Up in another State.

Same Exceptional athlete [sport redacted] moves to Minnesota and Re-Enrolls 7th grader and Wins State Title. That is probably when Semester Rule started.
Maybe not.

Closing a "loophole" to avoid a similar situation repeating if it happened with MSHSL Membership Schools.

My proposal would’ve cut this exceptional athlete off from competing as a 12th grader, due to being 19.

Essentially trading competition as a 12th grader for competition as a 2nd 7th grader. I mean, tough to do better than a statue title, so not sure I blame this person. Regardless, no loopholes.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

but - you have to remember - the MSHSL is not a detective agency. You can't expect them to conduct an in-depth investigation into the reasons why athlete X was held back for a year in 7th or 8th grade.

I'm not questioning the sincerity of the parents in this case - but I think we all understand that there are parents who would hold back a kid for athletic reasons only.

You can't have a rule - and then build in exceptions for "if the parents meant well," or "if it was done in good faith." Sad but true- if you create a loophole, some people will try to exploit it. the safest way for an organization like the MSHSL is to make a rule and stick to it. In a few cases, a good kid might be disadvantaged. but in the vast majority of cases, the rule exists for a good reason.

(dammit - now you've got me defending the MSHSL. I need to take a shower......)

 

[Buck_Buchanan]

My proposal would’ve cut this exceptional athlete off from competing as a 12th grader, due to being 19.

Essentially trading competition as a 12th grader for competition as a 2nd 7th grader. I mean, tough to do better than a statue title, so not sure I blame this person. Regardless, no loopholes.

Your proposal is what it used to be. 9-12 with 8 semesters. It changed after that Exceptional Athlete [sport redacted] incident.
It is even referred to by that Athlete's Name by many AD's throughout the state.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Your proposal is what it used to be. 9-12 with 8 semesters. It changed after that Exceptional Athlete [sport redacted] incident.
It is even referred to by that Athlete's Name by many AD's throughout the state.

Sure 8 semesters 9-12, but I bet the max age was still 20. And so that only makes sense to go 12 semesters 7-12 if they/whoever arbitrarily decreed that the max age limit can’t be lowered past 20.

Which seems made-up to me. If it’s 19, then it’s physically impossible to get five seasons in grades 9-12.

 

[GFBfan]

Sure 8 semesters 9-12, but I bet the max age was still 20. And so that only makes sense to go 12 semesters 7-12 if they/whoever arbitrarily decreed that the max age limit can’t be lowered past 20.

Which seems made-up to me. If it’s 19, then it’s physically impossible to get five seasons in grades 9-12.

An athlete could compete as a 7th grader, 8th grader, super 8th grader, 9th grader, 10th grader, 11th grader and 12th grader with a birthday in June, thus having 7 years of HS competition. Unless you think limiting HS sports to only 9 - 12 is the way to go.

 

[Gophers_4life]

An athlete could compete as a 7th grader, 8th grader, super 8th grader, 9th grader, 10th grader, 11th grader and 12th grader with a birthday in June, thus having 7 years of HS competition. Unless you think limiting HS sports to only 9 - 12 is the way to go.

No. As I’ve said, I don’t care what you did before high school. If you only play four seasons in grades 9-12, while at most turning 19 in the 7th or 8th semester, that should be the criteria.

Most normal students turn 18 in the 7th or 8th semester. This gives a one year grace to students who get held back for legitimate reasons, if the hold back occurs before high school. Otherwise, they’d have to decide if they want to sit out a year of competition or forgo competing as a senior.

 

[GFBfan]

No. As I’ve said, I don’t care what you did before high school. If you only play four seasons in grades 9-12, while at most turning 19 in the 7th or 8th semester, that should be the criteria.

Most normal students turn 18 in the 7th or 8th semester. This gives a one year grace to students who get held back for legitimate reasons, if the hold back occurs before high school. Otherwise, they’d have to decide if they want to sit out a year of competition or forgo competing as a senior.

By the bolded then, you are ok with an athlete having 7 season of HS competition?

A student held back for legitimate reasons before kindergarten, could turn 19 in September. They would then be ineligible to ever compete as a senior under your plan.
Also what of an athlete who turns 19 in say Dec., which is semester 7. They are then ineligible for semester 8 which all winter sport activities fall in, so that athlete wouldn't be able to compete for a state title as an individual or with the team in any winter or spring sport.