Michigan Shot Clock-gate 2019

[matt]

I just looked at the clocks in slow motion for the last possession. The last possession started at 30.9 seconds remaining. After the ball was inbounded, the shot clock turned over each second during XX.8 until the timeout was called at 24.7 seconds on the game clock. After the timeout, the shot clock turned over each second during XX.7.

We would expect the shot clock to turn over each second during XX.9 as the game clock started at 30.9 seconds. However, it appears Michigan gained 0.1 seconds on the shot clock during the inbound to start the possession, pushing the shot clock turn over to XX.8. It appears they gained another 0.1 seconds on the shot clock during the inbound after the timeout, pushing the shot clock turn over to XX.7.

My guess is that it is some sort of truncation or rounding error in the clock systems that occurs when the clock is started and stopped. To further investigate the truncation/rounding theory, I looked at the only other time during the game that the clock was started and stopped with less than 1 minute left as that is the only time we can see the tenths digits. On the 2nd to last possession of the game where Gabe hit the three, the Gophers inbounded the ball and started the possession at 40.1 seconds remaining. We would thusly expect the shot clock to turn over each second during XX.1; however, it turns over each second during XX.0, indicating 0.1 seconds was gained during the inbound when the clock was started.

tl;dr Michigan needs a new clock guy.

 

[Gophers7633]

I would agree. I was just thinking the same thing after seeing the highlights. Clock clearly stopped at 30.9, Matthews clearly had the ball in his hands at .8 on the clock. It appears they gained about .2-.3 seconds of additional time on the shot clock.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I just looked at the clocks in slow motion for the last possession. The last possession started at 30.9 seconds remaining. After the ball was inbounded, the shot clock turned over each second during XX.8 until the timeout was called at 24.7 seconds on the game clock. After the timeout, the shot clock turned over each second during XX.7.

We would expect the shot clock to turn over each second during XX.9 as the game clock started at 30.9 seconds. However, it appears Michigan gained 0.1 seconds on the shot clock during the inbound to start the possession, pushing the shot clock turn over to XX.8. It appears they gained another 0.1 seconds on the shot clock during the inbound after the timeout, pushing the shot clock turn over to XX.7.

My guess is that it is some sort of truncation or rounding error in the clock systems that occurs when the clock is started and stopped. To further investigate the truncation/rounding theory, I looked at the only other time during the game that the clock was started and stopped with less than 1 minute left as that is the only time we can see the tenths digits. On the 2nd to last possession of the game where Gabe hit the three, the Gophers inbounded the ball and started the possession at 40.1 seconds remaining. We would thusly expect the shot clock to turn over each second during XX.1; however, it turns over each second during XX.0, indicating 0.1 seconds was gained during the inbound when the clock was started.

tl;dr Michigan needs a new clock guy.

In their opinion, they have the best clock guy in the country.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I would agree. I was just thinking the same thing after seeing the highlights. Clock clearly stopped at 30.9, Matthews clearly had the ball in his hands at .8 on the clock. It appears they gained about .2-.3 seconds of additional time on the shot clock.

Not really sure I get the point of quibbling with this. Even if there is a slight delay in the clock the shot still would have gotten off on time and counted. Whether it leaves his hand at .8 or what should possibly have been .5 it still counts.

On the replay it looks like Curry and Gabe run into each other causing Curry to fall, if he is able to keep his balance the last shot probably doesn't happen in time and we head to OT. Just one of those fluke play/lucky bounces that unfortunately went against us in this case.

 

[Panthadad2]

Not really sure I get the point of quibbling with this. Even if there is a slight delay in the clock the shot still would have gotten off on time and counted. Whether it leaves his hand at .8 or what should possibly have been .5 it still counts.

On the replay it looks like Curry and Gabe run into each other causing Curry to fall, if he is able to keep his balance the last shot probably doesn't happen in time and we head to OT. Just one of those fluke play/lucky bounces that unfortunately went against us in this case.

The shot clock started at 30.9 seconds and should have gone to zero at .9 seconds (well before it was released) with the Gophers then getting the ball at the .9 seconds mark with no basket. Instead, the shot went to zero at .7. All the refs had to do was see that Michigan had more than 30 seconds to shoot the ball.

 

[gray4heisman]

I DEMAND WE FILE A CLASS-ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE NCAA AND REPLAY GAME!

 

[JimmyJamesMD]

I DEMAND WE FILE A CLASS-ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE NCAA AND REPLAY GAME!

and then get beat by 20, taking a big hit in the NET rankings! NOOO!

 

[Gophers_4life]

The shot clock started at 30.9 seconds and should have gone to zero at .9 seconds (well before it was released) with the Gophers then getting the ball at the .9 seconds mark with no basket. Instead, the shot went to zero at .7. All the refs had to do was see that Michigan had more than 30 seconds to shoot the ball.

But I bet if you go to the rule book, it states that the refs may only consider the shot clock, when assessing a shot clock violation. IE, they are not allowed, specifically by the rules, to do what you propose.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Great OP by the way!!

1) is there a human who has to physically press a button (or something) to start/stop the official clock? I would assume the answer has to be yes, how else could it be done?
2) do both the game clock and shot clock start/stop on the same button? Or are the two separate people pressing two separate buttons?

If the latter is true, then that's your answer, as unfair as it may be. Human error of 0.1 seconds is entirely reasonable.


My question would be, why aren't the two clocks synchronized to one button, if that is not the case?

 

[Panthadad2]

But I bet if you go to the rule book, it states that the refs may only consider the shot clock, when assessing a shot clock violation. IE, they are not allowed, specifically by the rules, to do what you propose.

I would love for a ref to chime in on this...but what you propose would be horrible precedent. If what you say is true, then if I was a shot clock operator for the home team at the end of a game, I would start the shot clock late EVERY TIME to minimize the other team's chance of regaining possession.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I would love for a ref to chime in on this...but what you propose would be horrible precedent. If what you say is true, then if I was a shot clock operator for the home team at the end of a game, I would start the shot clock late EVERY TIME to minimize the other team's chance of regaining possession.

See my post #9. Do you know the answers?

It could be exactly what you are saying. Though it would also be probably unlikely that a human would be able to achieve such a consistent lag of 0.1 sec. It should have more variation.

 

[Panthadad2]

See my post #9. Do you know the answers?

It could be exactly what you are saying. Though it would also be probably unlikely that a human would be able to achieve such a consistent lag of 0.1 sec. It should have more variation.

Sorry. I didn't see your post #9 above. In the basketball scoreboards I've used, the shot clock syncs automatically with the game clock. The shot clock operator has a simple switch/button to push at change-in-possession and then the shot clock automatically goes to 30 secs and syncs with the game clock. When there's a time stoppage after a made basket like there was last night at 30.9 seconds, the shot clock operator resets the time during the stoppage so the two are synced when time starts again. The only way for the two to be out of sync is by shot clock operator error/manipulation.

 

[Gophers_4life]

So how would it be possible for a human operator to consistently hit a 0.1 second lag delay between the game clock starting back up and the shot clock then starting back up? That seems inhuman.

It seems like defective equipment.

Unless it was all digital, and it would be easy to program in a delay. But seems like you couldn't selectively do that? IE, per the OP the 0.1 sec advantage was given both to the Gophs and Michigan.

 

[bga1]

I DEMAND WE FILE A CLASS-ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE NCAA AND REPLAY GAME!

I propose we just play the overtime at the Barn and then play the scheduled game right after! A doubleheader of sorts.

 

[Panthadad2]

So how would it be possible for a human operator to consistently hit a 0.1 second lag delay between the game clock starting back up and the shot clock then starting back up? That seems inhuman.

It seems like defective equipment.

Unless it was all digital, and it would be easy to program in a delay. But seems like you couldn't selectively do that? IE, per the OP the 0.1 sec advantage was given both to the Gophs and Michigan.

I'm getting way into the weeds on this, but.....

I haven't operated an advanced scoreboard in a long time so I looked up a new Daktronics manual for an advanced scoreboard (time on my hands...not working today). The default setting is for the shot clock to halt/start with the game clock which would reduce human error. Even though most sane people would operate it in the default way, the operator can de-couple the shot clock from the game clock and run it independently. I'm guessing this is what Michigan did seeing how the two times weren't synced.

 

[MinnGopher]

Kind of makes me wonder does the shock clock operate on 1 second intervals. What I mean is does the machine start and stop every second, meaning that when there is a stoppage it stops at the second its on even though a half second could have elapsed? I assume the other way it would operate would be by actually including tenths/hundredths.

 

[MNVCGUY]

The shot clock started at 30.9 seconds and should have gone to zero at .9 seconds (well before it was released) with the Gophers then getting the ball at the .9 seconds mark with no basket. Instead, the shot went to zero at .7. All the refs had to do was see that Michigan had more than 30 seconds to shoot the ball.

Wasn't thinking about it that way, unfortunate but probably just a quirk in the system. I guess technically it should have gone differently but even though it would have helped us in this case I would hate to see replay expanded to go back all the way to the start of the possession to make sure the clock was perfect all the way through and catch those .1 second issues. Especially not in a regular season game.

 

[Panthadad2]

Wasn't thinking about it that way, unfortunate but probably just a quirk in the system. I guess technically it should have gone differently but even though it would have helped us in this case I would hate to see replay expanded to go back all the way to the start of the possession to make sure the clock was perfect all the way through and catch those .1 second issues. Especially not in a regular season game.

I'll agree to disagree here. Clock corrections are made all the time; it seems like multiple times every game for trivial matters. There's easy video evidence here showing what time the clock started. I don't see why a correction should be ignored on a hugely important potential game winning basket.

 

[GFBfan]

What would be fitting is we meet them in the NCAA Elite Eight and the reverse happens to allow us to go the Final Four!!!

 

[Panthadad2]

I don't want to pay $10 for NCAA rule book, so I lifted this from another forum on this shot clock issue. So take it with a grain of salt.

"Here's an NCAA case book play that suggests that the officials can waive the basket:

A.R. 121. The time on the game clock is 15:30 and the shot clock reads 0:25. A1 shoots the ball with five seconds on the shot clock and the ball does not hit the ring or flange. Team A recovers the ball and the shot-clock operator, by mistake, resets the shot clock. No one notices the mistake by the shot-clock operator at this time. The game clock gets to 15:00 and B2 commits a foul against A2. Now the officials get together and realize the shot-clock operator’s mistake.

RULING: When the officials have definite information relative to the shot-clock operator’s mistake, it is permissible to rectify that mistake. In this case, since the officials have definite information relative to the time involved, they shall put five seconds back on the game clock, cancel the foul and award the ball to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the ball became dead for the shot-clock violation.

And here's the rule it's based on (5-12.4):

Art. 4. When an obvious mistake by the shot-clock operator has occurred in failing to start, stop, set or reset the shot clock or when a shot clock has malfunctioned, the mistake or the malfunctioning problem may be corrected in the shot-clock period in which it occurred only when the official has definite information relative to the mistake or malfunctioning problem and the time involved. When a timing mistake or malfunctioning problem occurs that gives a team more time than that team is entitled to, any activity after the mistake or malfunctioning problem has been committed and until it has been rectified shall be canceled, excluding any flagrant foul or technical foul."

 

[GophersInIowa]

It's not a big deal in my opinion. Michigan held onto the ball until under 10 seconds. If the shot clock was correct, they probably would have started running their offense earlier.

 

[Otis]

How clairvoyant that shot clock operator must be to not only know how to manipulate the clock to buy his team the extra tenth of a second, but to realize he needed to do this so the upcoming shot would get off without expiring the shot clock.

I want to go to Vegas with that guy.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Every minute of a game matters. Yes, plays at the end of the game gain more importance because of when they occur, but a made basket in the 1st minute of the game counts the same as a made basket in the last minute. A missed shot, a missed FT, a turnover in the first half can impact the outcome just as much as a similar event in the 2nd half.

if a team played a perfect game, and the only variable was the shot clock incident, then you could argue that it "cost us the game." But, in real life, that turnover in the first 5 minutes of the game, or that missed shot at the 10-minute mark had just as much to do with the outcome.

 

[Panthadad2]

Every minute of a game matters. Yes, plays at the end of the game gain more importance because of when they occur, but a made basket in the 1st minute of the game counts the same as a made basket in the last minute. A missed shot, a missed FT, a turnover in the first half can impact the outcome just as much as a similar event in the 2nd half.

if a team played a perfect game, and the only variable was the shot clock incident, then you could argue that it "cost us the game." But, in real life, that turnover in the first 5 minutes of the game, or that missed shot at the 10-minute mark had just as much to do with the outcome.

That's all true. Similar to the Saints complaining incessantly about the non-call pass interference at the end of that game, when the Rams had a huge facemask non-call on the previous drive that probably nullified a touchdown too. It evens out.

That said, what irks me about this Gopher play was that it was reviewable and was simple math. The refs spent a huge amount of time reviewing if the ball left the finger tips in tenths of a second, but didn't bother to check if the shot clock was right in the first place. Otherwise, why bother? It's simple math.

 

[Bordergopher]

Not really sure I get the point of quibbling with this. Even if there is a slight delay in the clock the shot still would have gotten off on time and counted. Whether it leaves his hand at .8 or what should possibly have been .5 it still counts.

On the replay it looks like Curry and Gabe run into each other causing Curry to fall, if he is able to keep his balance the last shot probably doesn't happen in time and we head to OT. Just one of those fluke play/lucky bounces that unfortunately went against us in this case.

You clearly don’t understand what happened. It’s simple math.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SKOOKM]

So what if instead of being granted an extra 0.2 seconds they were granted 2 seconds? If the game clock read 32.7 seconds when the ball was inbound and they released a shot slightly before 0.7 seconds and had the basket count would people just shrug that off?

 

[Gophers_4life]

I'm getting way into the weeds on this, but.....

I haven't operated an advanced scoreboard in a long time so I looked up a new Daktronics manual for an advanced scoreboard (time on my hands...not working today). The default setting is for the shot clock to halt/start with the game clock which would reduce human error. Even though most sane people would operate it in the default way, the operator can de-couple the shot clock from the game clock and run it independently. I'm guessing this is what Michigan did seeing how the two times weren't synced.

I understand what you’re saying, but it still seems inhuman to me for a person to consistently hit a 0.1sec delay, time and time again. The OP said it wasn’t just the last possession where this happens.

I think it has to be some kind of a rounding issue when the shot clock is restarted, due to it only displaying whole seconds. That’s my guess

 

[Gophers_4life]

I’d be curious if we see the same exact thing happen here, now that we’re looking for it. Maybe this has always happened everywhere?

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I believe the shot clock is tied to the game clock. If the shot clock is at 30 and the game clock is at 2:30, once you start the game clock, the shot clock starts. If there is a whistle, they stop at the same time. I'm confused on how this happened but have moved on.

Beat Iowa.