Michael Rand: Tubby vs. Monson. How much improvement?

[Monty519]

That's interesting, but pretty unfair considering the stacked deck Monson faced coming in. The loss of 5 scholarships over three years, the reduced recruiting visits, the cloud of the scandal, the heavy program oversight that likely forced Monson's hand with Pryz. Monson's early bad luck was not dissimilar- with Bickerstaff going down midseason, Pryz leaving, Rickert leaving permaturely- not due to issues with Monson but due to an inflated view of his NBA future, Bauer was constantly injured. Plus Monson had no "brand name" of his own to potentially overcome it. The crowning blow was the Illinois loss that was in the bag with 30 seconds to go and would have certainly put us in the tourney and could have provided some crucial good vibes for the program.

So basically, ever since Clem left, we've had a program that's essentially had anything that could go wrong, go wrong. So is it any surprise that we are struggling today? When you can't seem to field a full squad most seasons, it's gonna be hard to build this program into anything special. We can't continue to have all the rotation of players, the injuries, etc. and think this program is going to head anywhere. I'm talking beyond Monson and Tubby, there's few coaches in the land who are going to overcome the problems we've had the last 10 years, that's just reality.

My only hope is Tubby eventually provides the stability we so badly need, so we can start progressing forward, rather than always taking 3 steps back after every 1 step forward.

 

[SelectionSunday]

That's interesting, but pretty unfair considering the stacked deck Monson faced coming in. The loss of 5 scholarships over three years, the reduced recruiting visits, the cloud of the scandal, the heavy program oversight that likely forced Monson's hand with Pryz. Monson's early bad luck was not dissimilar- with Bickerstaff going down midseason, Pryz leaving, Rickert leaving permaturely- not due to issues with Monson but due to an inflated view of his NBA future, Bauer was constantly injured. Plus Monson had no "brand name" of his own to potentially overcome it. The crowning blow was the Illinois loss that was in the bag with 30 seconds to go and would have certainly put us in the tourney and could have provided some crucial good vibes for the program.

BGA, honest question. Do you see me on this site making excuses for Tubby? Is that what you see? Making excuses has never been my thing, never has been, never will be, whether it be for Monson, Tubby or any other Gopher coach. I posted the RPI stuff above (notice, w/o much editorializing) because Bad Gopher mentioned he'd be curious how things compare using "RPI measures".

I'm like most any other Gopher fan. I'd by lying if I said we're where I thought we'd be nearly 5 years into Tubby's tenure, but one thing you won't see me doing is making excuses for him like you're so clearly doing for Dan above. Seems to me you're willing to make all kinds of excuses for Dan (again, above), but not quite as willing to give Tubby that same rope.

 

[BarnBurner]

BGA, honest question. Do you see me on this site making excuses for Tubby? Is that what you see? Making excuses has never been my thing, never has been, never will be, whether it be for Monson, Tubby or any other Gopher coach. I posted the RPI stuff above (notice, w/o much editorializing) because Bad Gopher mentioned he'd be curious how things compare using "RPI measures".

I'm like most any other Gopher fan. I'd by lying if I said we're where I thought we'd be nearly 5 years into Tubby's tenure, but one thing you won't see me doing is making excuses for him like you're so clearly doing for Dan above. Seems to me you're willing to make all kinds of excuses for Dan (again, above), but not quite as willing to give Tubby that same rope.

You dont say jack about tubby. Lie, certainly not. Be consistent - nope.

That, in and of itself tells all SS. You didnt hold back about Monson. And you fail to point out anything the least bit negative about the tubster. 5 years SS. Half a decade. Tubby has been at the helm for 5 years.

Excuses for Monson? Fine, dont use any of the negative things that surrounded the program at that time. At the same time, adjust your thoughts on the situation the tubster walked into was well.

The Barn was supposed to be brough back to life. Failure.
There were to be packed houses for each home game. Failure.
Recruiting solid citizens/student as players. Not a failure, certainly not close to expectations.


Hall of fame coach. Results?

Waaaaaay less than expected, in many facets of the program.

Just tough for some to admit.

 

[bga1]

BGA, honest question. Do you see me on this site making excuses for Tubby? Is that what you see? Making excuses has never been my thing, never has been, never will be, whether it be for Monson, Tubby or any other Gopher coach. I posted the RPI stuff above (notice, w/o much editorializing) because Bad Gopher mentioned he'd be curious how things compare using "RPI measures".

I'm like most any other Gopher fan. I'd by lying if I said we're where I thought we'd be nearly 5 years into Tubby's tenure, but one thing you won't see me doing is making excuses for him like you're so clearly doing for Dan above. Seems to me you're willing to make all kinds of excuses for Dan (again, above), but not quite as willing to give Tubby that same rope.

No you are not making excuses for Tubby, I've never seen that. And I'm not picking on you SS - I'm just opining that those 5 years - for whoever was looking at the information - it's not an apples for apples comparison. I'm not in any way attempting to state that you personally are attempting to make excuses for Tubby.

I'll admit I am more inclined to make excuses for Dan because I think he came here under near impossible circumstances, with a different mission (clean up the program - job 1) and the axes were being sharpened on him before he ever had a chance to get off the ground. He was under intense pressure his last 3-4 years here. Tubby meanwhile came in to a place that gave him tons of support and where he has been able to do almost no wrong. Tubby did a great job in the first two years and perhaps he'd have had 5 good years without bad luck. But he had it- just like Monson and it has made the warts in his system, staff and recruiting style stick out certainly more than these issues would have had luck gone his way. Tubby came in with the reputation, got the support and has been paid to perform beyond this level. Nonetheless I have not been one to ever ask that he be fired- in fact I have insisted that we need him to stay and succeed. I continue in that opinion- it is critical to our program that Tubby finish a winner here. To that end I would like to see him make some changes and show more passion. That's my honest assessment as a fan.

 

[bga1]

So basically, ever since Clem left, we've had a program that's essentially had anything that could go wrong, go wrong. So is it any surprise that we are struggling today? When you can't seem to field a full squad most seasons, it's gonna be hard to build this program into anything special. We can't continue to have all the rotation of players, the injuries, etc. and think this program is going to head anywhere. I'm talking beyond Monson and Tubby, there's few coaches in the land who are going to overcome the problems we've had the last 10 years, that's just reality.

My only hope is Tubby eventually provides the stability we so badly need, so we can start progressing forward, rather than always taking 3 steps back after every 1 step forward.

Amen to that.

 

[SelectionSunday]

You dont say jack about tubby. Lie, certainly not. Be consistent - nope. That, in and of itself tells all SS. You didnt hold back about Monson. And you fail to point out anything the least bit negative about the tubster. 5 years SS. Half a decade.

Respectfully, BB, off the top of my head:

(1) On many occasions I have criticized Tubby's nonconference home schedules, especially in his first few seasons, while at the same time acknowledging that Monson was much more willing to schedule quality and/or BCS opponents & bringing them to The Barn as part of home & homes.

(2) I have pointed out quite a few times that I do not like Tubby's 5-for-5 substitutions.

(3) I certainly have noticed and made mention of the fact that the Gophers do not have many notable wins at home under Tubby, and that we are no longer difficult to defeat at Williams Arena. That frustration certainly has continued under Tubby.

(4) Sort of in that vein, whenever the (former) resident Tubby apologist FOT would go on & on & on & on about how awesome it was that Tubby had so & so how many consecutive 20-win seasons, I reminded him quite frequently that in college basketball parlance winning 20 games in a season means nowhere what it used to mean. It was a nice feat, but considering teams play about 30-33 games per season now. ... meh.

My apologies, BB, if I'm not critical enough of Tubby for you. Seriously, I hope someday you'll be able to get past the fact that more than 5 years ago I was critical of and got to the point where I was ready to move on from Monson. I'm nowhere near to that point (ready to move on) with Tubby, but If I get to that point I'll let you know. I certainly don't begrudge you for being unhappy with Tubby. That's your call. And you might not believe this, but I'm pulling for Monson to get to the NCAA tourney at Long Beach. It would be a nice comeback story, and well deserved.

 

[SelectionSunday]

No you are not making excuses for Tubby, I've never seen that. And I'm not picking on you SS - I'm just opining that those 5 years - for whoever was looking at the information - it's not an apples for apples comparison. I'm not in any way attempting to state that you personally are attempting to make excuses for Tubby.

I'll admit I am more inclined to make excuses for Dan because I think he came here under near impossible circumstances, with a different mission (clean up the program - job 1) and the axes were being sharpened on him before he ever had a chance to get off the ground. He was under intense pressure his last 3-4 years here. Tubby meanwhile came in to a place that gave him tons of support and where he has been able to do almost no wrong. Tubby did a great job in the first two years and perhaps he'd have had 5 good years without bad luck. But he had it- just like Monson and it has made the warts in his system, staff and recruiting style stick out certainly more than these issues would have had luck gone his way. Tubby came in with the reputation, got the support and has been paid to perform beyond this level. Nonetheless I have not been one to ever ask that he be fired- in fact I have insisted that we need him to stay and succeed. I continue in that opinion- it is critical to our program that Tubby finish a winner here. To that end I would like to see him make some changes and show more passion. That's my honest assessment as a fan.

More than fair, BGA, and no offense taken. I appreciate the response.

 

[From the Barn]

No you are not making excuses for Tubby, I've never seen that. And I'm not picking on you SS - I'm just opining that those 5 years - for whoever was looking at the information - it's not an apples for apples comparison. I'm not in any way attempting to state that you personally are attempting to make excuses for Tubby.

I'll admit I am more inclined to make excuses for Dan because I think he came here under near impossible circumstances, with a different mission (clean up the program - job 1) and the axes were being sharpened on him before he ever had a chance to get off the ground. He was under intense pressure his last 3-4 years here. Tubby meanwhile came in to a place that gave him tons of support and where he has been able to do almost no wrong. Tubby did a great job in the first two years and perhaps he'd have had 5 good years without bad luck. But he had it- just like Monson and it has made the warts in his system, staff and recruiting style stick out certainly more than these issues would have had luck gone his way. Tubby came in with the reputation, got the support and has been paid to perform beyond this level. Nonetheless I have not been one to ever ask that he be fired- in fact I have insisted that we need him to stay and succeed. I continue in that opinion- it is critical to our program that Tubby finish a winner here. To that end I would like to see him make some changes and show more passion. That's my honest assessment as a fan.

Support from whom? Certainly not the AD and administration. Or do I need to bring up the Mbakwe and White suspensions and lack of practice facility issues again?

 

[bga1]

Support from whom? Certainly not the AD and administration. Or do I need to bring up the Mbakwe and White suspensions and lack of practice facility issues again?

The fans. I'll agree with you FTB - all appearances are that the administration in place was supportive - but stupid form Jimmy Williams to Trevor and perhaps to White - although I give them a bit of a pass on White because it sounds as though he was not helping matters in the investigation. White was a known risk for Tubby and he had to take it.

I'll say this FTB- If this had all worked out for Tubby, Nolen not injured, Joseph stayed happy, Trevor was fine and Tubby was having a few good to great years here- do you think for one second that Tubby wouldn't be getting heaps upon heaps of praise from all on board? That's sports. You win you get the praise- you lose regardless of how and you get some blame.

 

[Bad Gopher]

BGA, honest question. Do you see me on this site making excuses for Tubby? Is that what you see? Making excuses has never been my thing, never has been, never will be, whether it be for Monson, Tubby or any other Gopher coach. I posted the RPI stuff above (notice, w/o much editorializing) because Bad Gopher mentioned he'd be curious how things compare using "RPI measures".

...and lest I forget to thank you, thank you!

 

[savagerube]

No matter what you all say, the Big Ten today is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better than the Big at any point during Monson's tenure.

It's interesting that you bring this up. There's a great article in sports illustrated today about how the B1G is currently the best conference in the country--particularly because of teamwork, toughness and tumultuous crowds. It's a very interesting article.

 

[minngg]

I still don't understand why 2006-2007 3-13 conference record isn't on Monson? if that's factored in, which it arguably should be since it was his team and players that year, his conference record would be 47-81 which better reflects Dan Monson.

Seriously? You want to add losses to his record for games he didn't coach? Yeah, this is a real fair conversation and comparison. I think some on here are too young to remember what Dan Monson walked into here. He deserved to be fired, but the first few years he was here, this program was down as low as it has ever been.

 

[savagerube]

Seriously? You want to add losses to his record for games he didn't coach? Yeah, this is a real fair conversation and comparison. I think some on here are too young to remember what Dan Monson walked into here. He deserved to be fired, but the first few years he was here, this program was down as low as it has ever been.

So if he would've coached the season you think the team record would've been better? Especially after losing to Marist, Southern Illinois, Montana, exhibition loss to Winona State, and a demolishing by Clemson? He was fired for a reason. He did coach the team to a 2-5 record. I would say that right there was one of the lowest points in the program; thus the reason he was fired. So you're saying that Jim Molinari should be pegged with the 3-13 record? Monson did walk into a bad situation, I agree. The 3-13 record happened 8 seasons later. I get that Monson walked into a whirlwind, but the year he got fired there were no sanctions of any kind.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Seriously? You want to add losses to his record for games he didn't coach? Yeah, this is a real fair conversation and comparison. I think some on here are too young to remember what Dan Monson walked into here. He deserved to be fired, but the first few years he was here, this program was down as low as it has ever been.

If that's your stance, then how can you state that Tubby is partly to blame for Kentucky's failure under Billy Gillispie? You can't have it both ways.

 

[station19]

I agree with the poster who said that the fact that a comparison can be made is a pretty clear indication that Tubby hasn't met expectations in year five.

To quote my friend Bleed, you are what your record says you are.

Tubby Smith was expected to upgrade the Gophers and elevate the program to new heights. Dan Monson frequently appeared overmatched.

Tubby has improved the Gophers program, but he certainly hasn't blown the doors off of what Monson did. Tubby in year five should be far beyond a point where any comparisons with Monson can be made.

And I'm not so sure that Big Ten is so much better now than it was before. In the eight years of Monson's tenure, the Big Ten had five different schools combine to make seven Final Four appearances. In the first four years of Tubby's tenure, the Big Ten has had one school make two appearances in the Final Four. If someone wants to make the argument that there is more depth in the league, I might be willing to agree that. But the league doesn't have as much top-end/No. 1 seed/national title contender talent as it has.

I tend to agree with this.

Some nice stats/homework provided by posters in this thread.

All in all in is pretty hard to make concrete conclusions.

 

[Dr.Don]

I tend to agree with this.

Some nice stats/homework provided by posters in this thread.

All in all in is pretty hard to make concrete conclusions.

So you're saying that concrete conclusions should not be cast in concrete?

 

[station19]

So you're saying that concrete conclusions should not be cast in concrete?

90% of concrete is half stone...........

 

[Dr.Don]

OK, 19, I think I understand now. 90% of Concrete conclusions should not be cast in half stone. Cool analogy.


(This ought to *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# up the pups here on GopherHole.)

 

[Whathavewedone]

No matter what you all say, the Big Ten today is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better than the Big at any point during Monson's tenure.

That's LAUGHABLE. The previous 2 seasons the B1G has been as weak as it may have ever been. It's only recovered slightly this year, with Illinois and Purdue doing all they can to undermine the gains.

 

[Whathavewedone]

And I'm not so sure that Big Ten is so much better now than it was before. In the eight years of Monson's tenure, the Big Ten had five different schools combine to make seven Final Four appearances. In the first four years of Tubby's tenure, the Big Ten has had one school make two appearances in the Final Four. If someone wants to make the argument that there is more depth in the league, I might be willing to agree that. But the league doesn't have as much top-end/No. 1 seed/national title contender talent as it has.[/QUOTE]

It's understandable that fans don't want to see/admit that the conference is down. But the media has just been AWOL. The last 2 seasons maybe well have been close to as historically weak as the conference has ever been. The fact that the ACC has been off even worse is maybe helping disguise it, but the B1G was pretty wretched with only the great team at OSU last year, and the still weakest team in the FF Mich St the year before giving it something to hang its hat on.

With the improvement of IU this season, and expectations for Ill, and even minor upticks by NW and iowa, it looked like things were really turning around this season. But now, OSU seems iffy for a #1 seed, Mich St. has been coming on, but are they really nationally comeptitive? Illinois has fallen on its own sword, IU has at least stalled in its upward mobility, and it looks like it may not be that good of a year after all. I guess Gopher fans WANT to feel like the B1G is a beast, because it makes the struggles of this team seem less ugly, but reality is, conference play has hit this team like a freight trina AGAIN, and AGAIN, the conference is more like a commuter trolley.

 

[savagerube]

And I'm not so sure that Big Ten is so much better now than it was before. In the eight years of Monson's tenure, the Big Ten had five different schools combine to make seven Final Four appearances. In the first four years of Tubby's tenure, the Big Ten has had one school make two appearances in the Final Four. If someone wants to make the argument that there is more depth in the league, I might be willing to agree that. But the league doesn't have as much top-end/No. 1 seed/national title contender talent as it has.

It's understandable that fans don't want to see/admit that the conference is down. But the media has just been AWOL. The last 2 seasons maybe well have been close to as historically weak as the conference has ever been. The fact that the ACC has been off even worse is maybe helping disguise it, but the B1G was pretty wretched with only the great team at OSU last year, and the still weakest team in the FF Mich St the year before giving it something to hang its hat on.

With the improvement of IU this season, and expectations for Ill, and even minor upticks by NW and iowa, it looked like things were really turning around this season. But now, OSU seems iffy for a #1 seed, Mich St. has been coming on, but are they really nationally comeptitive? Illinois has fallen on its own sword, IU has at least stalled in its upward mobility, and it looks like it may not be that good of a year after all. I guess Gopher fans WANT to feel like the B1G is a beast, because it makes the struggles of this team seem less ugly, but reality is, conference play has hit this team like a freight trina AGAIN, and AGAIN, the conference is more like a commuter trolley.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. That's why the conference is the best in the country right now. The B1G from top to bottom is beating each other up and that's why there isn't a dominate team (record-wise) in the conference. Sports Illustrated ran an article yesterday discussing the toughness of the conference and the intensity of road games in the B1G that has ultimately turned the B1G into the best in the country. Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State and Ohio State were all ranked at one point. Just because there isn't a runaway NCAA #1 seed in the conference doesn't mean that the conference is weak. Besides, doesn't the B1G currently have the most or amount of teams of any conference in the Top 25? I think they're tied with the Big East with 5 teams in the Top 25.

 

[BarnBurner]

Respectfully, BB, off the top of my head:

(1) On many occasions I have criticized Tubby's nonconference home schedules, especially in his first few seasons, while at the same time acknowledging that Monson was much more willing to schedule quality and/or BCS opponents & bringing them to The Barn as part of home & homes.

(2) I have pointed out quite a few times that I do not like Tubby's 5-for-5 substitutions.

(3) I certainly have noticed and made mention of the fact that the Gophers do not have many notable wins at home under Tubby, and that we are no longer difficult to defeat at Williams Arena. That frustration certainly has continued under Tubby.

(4) Sort of in that vein, whenever the (former) resident Tubby apologist FOT would go on & on & on & on about how awesome it was that Tubby had so & so how many consecutive 20-win seasons, I reminded him quite frequently that in college basketball parlance winning 20 games in a season means nowhere what it used to mean. It was a nice feat, but considering teams play about 30-33 games per season now. ... meh.

My apologies, BB, if I'm not critical enough of Tubby for you. Seriously, I hope someday you'll be able to get past the fact that more than 5 years ago I was critical of and got to the point where I was ready to move on from Monson. I'm nowhere near to that point (ready to move on) with Tubby, but If I get to that point I'll let you know. I certainly don't begrudge you for being unhappy with Tubby. That's your call. And you might not believe this, but I'm pulling for Monson to get to the NCAA tourney at Long Beach. It would be a nice comeback story, and well deserved.

Nice list - I agree with you to a point. You do point out some of these items, however you rarely, if ever assign the responsibility to tubby.

If Dan wins, good for him. I am most interested in the results of the Minnesota Gophers, contrary to popular belief.