Michael Rand Podcast: A listener wonders if Ben Johnson is getting a fair shake with Gophers

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forever a gopher said:
A guy with no business getting the job in the first place gets 4 years and some are wondering if he's gotten a "fair shake"? Just getting the job in the first place equates to him standing on third after bunting down the first base line. He received the most "unfair shake" in his favor, not against it. People were all over PJ after going 6-7 last year even with all the equity he's built up, yet CBJ deserves no criticism. The double standard is beyond insane.

edit: I'm not clicking on that link to give him credit, so I'm venting based solely on the headline
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Everything this.
 

As bad as Ben has been in this era, I genuinely believe he would have been worse in the pre-transfer portal/NIL era. The only reason we ever are even respectable is because we can offer good lower level guys an opportunity to get immediate PT to play in the Big 10. If Ben had to build a program. . .yikes. The only players he has signed out of HS that are even decent are Payne and Asuma.

Ben was paid millions of dollars and given an undeserved shot at a dream job. He seems like a nice guy and I don't have hatred of him for getting the opportunity. But if we're weighing "fair" vs. "unfair", I don't think the U has never been more fair to someone.
 

scools12 said:
Is Ben Johnson getting a fair shake?

How about the basketball program get a fair shake starting with the removal of Johnson as the leader.
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Yes, are the program and its fans getting a fair shake? As long as we keep paying the bills--and we always will--that's the central question.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
As bad as Ben has been in this era, I genuinely believe he would have been worse in the pre-transfer portal/NIL era. The only reason we ever are even respectable is because we can offer good lower level guys an opportunity to get immediate PT to play in the Big 10. If Ben had to build a program. . .yikes. The only players he has signed out of HS that are even decent are Payne and Asuma.

Ben was paid millions of dollars and given an undeserved shot at a dream job. He seems like a nice guy and I don't have hatred of him for getting the opportunity. But if we're weighing "fair" vs. "unfair", I don't think the U has never been more fair to someone.
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You may or may not be right but with the way everything has changed I don't know that anyone can say for sure one way or the other if he would have been more successful in the old days vs. the current ones.

The only thing we know for sure is that he is floundering in the current landscape and can't seem to get/keep the pieces he needs to be able to move the program forward.

Side note - you forgot to include Christie in the good high school guys he has brought in.
 

Holy Man said:
I don’t think it’s nearly as political as that. The community was in chaos, the U doesn’t have a great history in basketball, and doesn’t have a good track record of administrative support. All good reasons qualified candidates were not interested and not political per se. I heard through good sources that they wanted Gates to interview and he turned them down.
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Gates likely knew he would have better offers soon (which he did).
 


MNVCGUY said:
You may or may not be right but with the way everything has changed I don't know that anyone can say for sure one way or the other if he would have been more successful in the old days vs. the current ones.

The only thing we know for sure is that he is floundering in the current landscape and can't seem to get/keep the pieces he needs to be able to move the program forward.

Side note - you forgot to include Christie in the good high school guys he has brought in.
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You're right, I forgot about Christie. I was kind of thinking where this team would be this year without transfers but you're right, he does deserve credit for Christie.

As far as not being able to say for sure, I agree. My point was just that I have not seen any reason to believe Ben Johnson's skills would better translate to pre-portal world of college basketball. In fact, IMO, the limited information I have, my opinion is that he actually has fewer skills that would translate to that world of college basketball.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
You're right, I forgot about Christie. I was kind of thinking where this team would be this year without transfers but you're right, he does deserve credit for Christie.

As far as not being able to say for sure, I agree. My point was just that I have not seen any reason to believe Ben Johnson's skills would better translate to pre-portal world of college basketball. In fact, IMO, the limited information I have, my opinion is that he actually has fewer skills that would translate to that world of college basketball.
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I strongly disagree. The overwhelming consensus following Ben's hire was that his ability to nurture and develop recruiting relationships with high school players would pay dividends locally and regionally. The entire hire was predicated on slowly building a program from the ground up with recruiting improving each year as the relationships paid dividends.

Ben's first fully recruited class of Payne, Carrington and Ola-Joseph, in fact, showed some of that early promise. Once the full wrath of NIL and free transfers was unleashed, the key trait that Ben brought to the table- relationship building- was negated and the scramble to recruit one-year stop-gap transfers began.

1. Ben could no longer get to know guys over a period of time as the transfer portal as the window is so short. Strangely, he has done a little better than I expected here. He does not have an especially outgoing personality so I am actually surprised that he has closed the deal to attract any transfers here after a couple of phone calls and, possibly, a visit.

2. The recruitment of high school players has changed dramatically over the last few years across the country. Unless you are talking about one of the nation's elite high school players (and you have the NIL budget to chase them), college coaches would much rather take a known quantity as a transfer than reach for a high school player that may require some time to develop.

Surprisingly, I see some promise in the high school class Ben has signed for next year. I am not certain whether intentional or not but Ben seems to be pivoting back a bit to taking some chances on high school players and becoming more of a development program.

I personally think the key to the also-ran teams in the Power 4 or 5 conferences is to build some consistency and continuity with high school players and fill in at positions of need with transfers.

At this juncture, Coyle HAS to make a change to reengage the fans and save the program. Had Coyle done this experiment with an unheralded local coach 10 years ago- before the seismic shift in the NCAA landscape- I think that there would have been a much better shot at being successful. Ben does not have the personality to help raise NIL funds. Coyle has to make a hire whose skills are most effective under the current environment.
 



ecoperson said:
I strongly disagree. The overwhelming consensus following Ben's hire was that his ability to nurture and develop recruiting relationships with high school players would pay dividends locally and regionally. The entire hire was predicated on slowly building a program from the ground up with recruiting improving each year as the relationships paid dividends.

Ben's first fully recruited class of Payne, Carrington and Ola-Joseph, in fact, showed some of that early promise. Once the full wrath of NIL and free transfers was unleashed, the key trait that Ben brought to the table- relationship building- was negated and the scramble to recruit one-year stop-gap transfers began.

1. Ben could no longer get to know guys over a period of time as the transfer portal as the window is so short. Strangely, he has done a little better than I expected here. He does not have an especially outgoing personality so I am actually surprised that he has closed the deal to attract any transfers here after a couple of phone calls and, possibly, a visit.

2. The recruitment of high school players has changed dramatically over the last few years across the country. Unless you are talking about one of the nation's elite high school players (and you have the NIL budget to chase them), college coaches would much rather take a known quantity as a transfer than reach for a high school player that may require some time to develop.

Surprisingly, I see some promise in the high school class Ben has signed for next year. I am not certain whether intentional or not but Ben seems to be pivoting back a bit to taking some chances on high school players and becoming more of a development program.

I personally think the key to the also-ran teams in the Power 4 or 5 conferences is to build some consistency and continuity with high school players and fill in at positions of need with transfers.

At this juncture, Coyle HAS to make a change to reengage the fans and save the program. Had Coyle done this experiment with an unheralded local coach 10 years ago- before the seismic shift in the NCAA landscape- I think that there would have been a much better shot at being successful. Ben does not have the personality to help raise NIL funds. Coyle has to make a hire whose skills are most effective under the current environment.
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This got me thinking. Here's a few questions I have.

How does Ben develop relationships with players?

Is he limited to high school players or can he recruit middle-schoolers?

Is he only working with school teams, or are there club teams, as well?

With which group of coaches is it more important to establish relationships: high school or club coaches?

Does the U have anyone besides Ben who would have those relationships? Someone who isn't subject to being hired or fired based on results.
 



Ewert86PC said:
This got me thinking. Here's a few questions I have.

How does Ben develop relationships with players?

Is he limited to high school players or can he recruit middle-schoolers?

Is he only working with school teams, or are there club teams, as well?

With which group of coaches is it more important to establish relationships: high school or club coaches?

Does the U have anyone besides Ben who would have those relationships? Someone who isn't subject to being hired or fired based on results.
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I no longer keep up on specific recruiting rules and regs but so I can't answer your questions to the letter. I'm going to start with your last point as it sparked my interest.

If I am following your line of thinking, however, I believe that only coaches can contact players. It would be interesting if the athletic department as a whole could do much of the early recruiting to build and strengthen the ties to the overall program and then the coach, be it Ben or the next coach, could reel them in.

If I remember correctly, coaches aren't allowed to reach out to players until the June 15 after their sophomore year. That said scholarships have and can be offered to much younger players

The communication is through secondary channels which is where the relationship with high school and club coaches often comes in.

Most D-1 coaches need to work with both sets of coaches. Club coaches are usually working with the more elite athletes so you want to have their support. But D-1 coaches also need to get HS coaches in their corner to help with individual recruits but also but also to build the brand.

I feel Ben hasn't necessary been a strong ambassador to the program.
 



ecoperson said:
I strongly disagree. The overwhelming consensus following Ben's hire was that his ability to nurture and develop recruiting relationships with high school players would pay dividends locally and regionally. The entire hire was predicated on slowly building a program from the ground up with recruiting improving each year as the relationships paid dividends.

Ben's first fully recruited class of Payne, Carrington and Ola-Joseph, in fact, showed some of that early promise. Once the full wrath of NIL and free transfers was unleashed, the key trait that Ben brought to the table- relationship building- was negated and the scramble to recruit one-year stop-gap transfers began.

1. Ben could no longer get to know guys over a period of time as the transfer portal as the window is so short. Strangely, he has done a little better than I expected here. He does not have an especially outgoing personality so I am actually surprised that he has closed the deal to attract any transfers here after a couple of phone calls and, possibly, a visit.

2. The recruitment of high school players has changed dramatically over the last few years across the country. Unless you are talking about one of the nation's elite high school players (and you have the NIL budget to chase them), college coaches would much rather take a known quantity as a transfer than reach for a high school player that may require some time to develop.

Surprisingly, I see some promise in the high school class Ben has signed for next year. I am not certain whether intentional or not but Ben seems to be pivoting back a bit to taking some chances on high school players and becoming more of a development program.

I personally think the key to the also-ran teams in the Power 4 or 5 conferences is to build some consistency and continuity with high school players and fill in at positions of need with transfers.

At this juncture, Coyle HAS to make a change to reengage the fans and save the program. Had Coyle done this experiment with an unheralded local coach 10 years ago- before the seismic shift in the NCAA landscape- I think that there would have been a much better shot at being successful. Ben does not have the personality to help raise NIL funds. Coyle has to make a hire whose skills are most effective under the current environment.
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Agree all around. If the Gophers had Payne, Hawkins, and Christie this year, we're likely in the top half of the Big Ten. Of course, pre-NIL we wouldn't have had Hawkins. One of the key reasons (at least stated) Johnson was brought on board was his relationship with the AAU programs. I think I remember those around Jalen Suggs saying that he would have at least considered the U if Johnson had been on board. None of us know whether that is true, but I remember that the local program angle was part of the discussion.
 


There are now agents who represent players - primarily those who are looking to transfer for a better deal, but maybe a few top HS players - and they are talking to coaches all the time. Rules? What rules?
 

ecoperson said:
I strongly disagree. The overwhelming consensus following Ben's hire was that his ability to nurture and develop recruiting relationships with high school players would pay dividends locally and regionally. The entire hire was predicated on slowly building a program from the ground up with recruiting improving each year as the relationships paid dividends.

Ben's first fully recruited class of Payne, Carrington and Ola-Joseph, in fact, showed some of that early promise. Once the full wrath of NIL and free transfers was unleashed, the key trait that Ben brought to the table- relationship building- was negated and the scramble to recruit one-year stop-gap transfers began.

1. Ben could no longer get to know guys over a period of time as the transfer portal as the window is so short. Strangely, he has done a little better than I expected here. He does not have an especially outgoing personality so I am actually surprised that he has closed the deal to attract any transfers here after a couple of phone calls and, possibly, a visit.

2. The recruitment of high school players has changed dramatically over the last few years across the country. Unless you are talking about one of the nation's elite high school players (and you have the NIL budget to chase them), college coaches would much rather take a known quantity as a transfer than reach for a high school player that may require some time to develop.

Surprisingly, I see some promise in the high school class Ben has signed for next year. I am not certain whether intentional or not but Ben seems to be pivoting back a bit to taking some chances on high school players and becoming more of a development program.

I personally think the key to the also-ran teams in the Power 4 or 5 conferences is to build some consistency and continuity with high school players and fill in at positions of need with transfers.

At this juncture, Coyle HAS to make a change to reengage the fans and save the program. Had Coyle done this experiment with an unheralded local coach 10 years ago- before the seismic shift in the NCAA landscape- I think that there would have been a much better shot at being successful. Ben does not have the personality to help raise NIL funds. Coyle has to make a hire whose skills are most effective under the current environment.
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I understand everything you're saying, but I cannot think of a coach who has done a worse job at recruiting and developing HS talent.

Payne is good.
Carrington is not a good basketball player and he's a headcase.
Olo-Joseph is fine, he is depth piece but likely not a Big 10 basketball player.
Treyton Thompson was not very good.
Betts has been pretty awful.
Henley has been meh.
Abdoule Thiam is not very good.
Christie was good.

I get the theory of what was going to make Ben Johnson successful, but we have not seen a single shred of evidence to suggest we wouldn't have been historically bad with a team fully recruited and developed by him. His "connections" haven't really helped us recruit locally, he doesn't seem to be a very good judge of talent, and it's hard to give him a lot of credit for development.

My whole point is that despite the theory that he would have been better under different circumstances, I disagree. Could you imagine how awful we would have been without Garcia, Battle, Hawkins, Willis, Parker Fox, Mitchell, and EJ Stephens? Do you really think in a different era Ben would have filled those spots with better talent?
 

50PoundHead said:
Agree all around. If the Gophers had Payne, Hawkins, and Christie this year, we're likely in the top half of the Big Ten. Of course, pre-NIL we wouldn't have had Hawkins. One of the key reasons (at least stated) Johnson was brought on board was his relationship with the AAU programs. I think I remember those around Jalen Suggs saying that he would have at least considered the U if Johnson had been on board. None of us know whether that is true, but I remember that the local program angle was part of the discussion.
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How would we have Hawkins? He is an addition to our program because of the new format.

Why would Christie still be here? If anything, we had a better chance of keeping Christie another season because of NIL.

If your argument is that Ben Johnson would be a good coach if we get to add through the portal but we never lose anything we want to the portal, yeah, in that world we might be a competent program.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
My whole point is that despite the theory that he would have been better under different circumstances, I disagree. Could you imagine how awful we would have been without Garcia, Battle, Hawkins, Willis, Parker Fox, Mitchell, and EJ Stephens? Do you really think in a different era Ben would have filled those spots with better talent?
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You may be 100% right but in regards to this part if you are going to take the transfers he brought in out of the equation then you have to put back the players he lost to transfers as well.

He would have had at least a little bit of a foundation to start with, Gabe, Mashburn, Robbins....some of those guys had multiple years left as well and would have been there to go along with Payne, Christie and others.

It certainly all could have gone to crap still but his initial roster would have looked very different in the pre-transfer portal era.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
How would we have Hawkins? He is an addition to our program because of the new format.

Why would Christie still be here? If anything, we had a better chance of keeping Christie another season because of NIL.

If your argument is that Ben Johnson would be a good coach if we get to add through the portal but we never lose anything we want to the portal, yeah, in that world we might be a competent program.
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Hence the word "if." I kid, but you're a lawyer and you drove right past the point. I qualified Hawkins because the post I responded to spoke to the pre-NIL and in an apples-to-apples comparison, I had to leave Hawkins out of the conversation.

I'm not contending that Johnson is a good coach or should be retained. I was speaking to one of the primary stated reasons he was hired was his supposed ability to mesh with the local AAU programs and build a stronger pipeline from them to the Gopher program. There were other reasons and maybe the whole AAU thing was simply a smokescreen, but it was mentioned more than once.
 

50PoundHead said:
Hence the word "if." I kid, but you're a lawyer and you drove right past the point. I qualified Hawkins because the post I responded to spoke to the pre-NIL and in an apples-to-apples comparison, I had to leave Hawkins out of the conversation.

I'm not contending that Johnson is a good coach or should be retained. I was speaking to one of the primary stated reasons he was hired was his supposed ability to mesh with the local AAU programs and build a stronger pipeline from them to the Gopher program. There were other reasons and maybe the whole AAU thing was simply a smokescreen, but it was mentioned more than once.
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We were sold AAU connections would save us. Nolan and that kid from Jefferson went to Madison. Nothing has changed.
 

MNVCGUY said:
You may be 100% right but in regards to this part if you are going to take the transfers he brought in out of the equation then you have to put back the players he lost to transfers as well.

He would have had at least a little bit of a foundation to start with, Gabe, Mashburn, Robbins....some of those guys had multiple years left as well and would have been there to go along with Payne, Christie and others.

It certainly all could have gone to crap still but his initial roster would have looked very different in the pre-transfer portal era.
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Why? Pre-portal a ton of players transferred out after coaching changes. That said, I just disagree with your point. I don’t see how pointing to Mashburn, Robbins, and Gabe makes a lot of sense when arguing Ben’s strength is AAU connections and a slow build.

I don’t think Robbins, Mashburn or Gabe would have stayed here in the pre-portal era.
 

Spaulding!No! said:
We were sold AAU connections would save us. Nolan and that kid from Jefferson went to Madison. Nothing has changed.
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If it came down to Frietag or Asuma, give me Asuma. I don't know if we were going to realistically have a shot at both
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
Why? Pre-portal a ton of players transferred out after coaching changes. That said, I just disagree with your point. I don’t see how pointing to Mashburn, Robbins, and Gabe makes a lot of sense when arguing Ben’s strength is AAU connections and a slow build.

I don’t think Robbins, Mashburn or Gabe would have stayed here in the pre-portal era.
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I think we have all gotten so used to transfers that we are forgetting what it used to be like. In the old days players could definitely transfer but they had to sit a year if they weren't a grad transfer so those transfers were far less common, even after coaching changes.

To be clear.....I have no clue how Ben would have done under the old ways but I do think he would be better suited for that way of doing things vs the current landscape. Whether that would have translated to more success on the court....no clue.
 

Look at Wisconsin and Greg Gard field another ranked team now 20 win season again. Sure Wisconsin faces similar challenges to what CBJ faces here in MN yet there is no excuses and able to get an NCAA tourney team at least every other year. Wisconsin has lost some key players, recruit MN, and just able to get players to fit his system on what he needs. Not sure we have any system at all?
 

MNVCGUY said:
I think we have all gotten so used to transfers that we are forgetting what it used to be like. In the old days players could definitely transfer but they had to sit a year if they weren't a grad transfer so those transfers were far less common, even after coaching changes.

To be clear.....I have no clue how Ben would have done under the old ways but I do think he would be better suited for that way of doing things vs the current landscape. Whether that would have translated to more success on the court....no clue.
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Sure, but isn't this the entire discussion on this thread? Some folks seem to think Ben's style would have translated to more success pre-portal and some people are arguing that it wouldn't have. It's a hypothetical - no one is arguing to have knowledge one way or another, it's impossible.

As to your first point, movement after coaching changes was pretty normal. BTW - both Gabe and Robbins were graduates, they were just as free to leave MN without sitting out before or after the transfer portal. As for Mash - he just seemed really loyal to Pitino. Maybe he stays, maybe he doesn't, to me it just feels more likely that he follows Pitino.
 

Spaulding!No! said:
We were sold AAU connections would save us. Nolan and that kid from Jefferson went to Madison. Nothing has changed.
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AAU connections no longer mean a thing when your NIL program takes a couple of years to catch up with even the lower tier of the conference. Relationships don't hold nearly the same weight as getting paid. The U was WAAYYY behind the curve on NIL.

Johnson was already a lap down in the race due to his inexperience. Coyle's cautious approach to NIL doomed Johnson to playing catch-up for his entire tenure.
 

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