May have to start new divisions

MNSpaniel

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We have always had divisions dividing tier one, tier two and non-scholarship schools. The way things are starting to look we may have to divide teams by how much NIL money they produce. The 25 mil. that has been attributed to Texas A & M is only the start.

Who knows ... we might have to put them in a category named Semi-pro college level. Conferences may change to other super conferences based on the amount of NIL money produced. I know this will probably not happen but might make it more manageable for some schools.

Some say this has always been happening but I don't think it was anywhere near the levels it is at now or will be in the future.
 

#2Gopher

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NCCA needs to back up a bit. Examine the whole situation looking at all the issues that has been going on. It's going to continue to get worse to the point of no return if something doesn't take place.
 

MNSpaniel

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I have no problem with giving all players stipends that allow them to be comfortable and go out to do things. Under NCAA rules players were not allowed to go out and get jobs because it would be easy for boosters to give them "under the table money."

However, the problem I have is that people are always saying that the players are not getting anything in return while everyone else is getting rich. Last time I looked going to college is a very big expense. Most likely $125,000 up to $200,000 depending on the school. Both my adult children have been paying on their college loans for years. So saying they are not getting anything in return is false if you value a college education.
 

MNVCGUY

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NCCA needs to back up a bit. Examine the whole situation looking at all the issues that has been going on. It's going to continue to get worse to the point of no return if something doesn't take place.
There is little to nothing the NCAA can do at this point. As long as schools are willing to look the other way about the whole "student" part in order to get the millions they get from TV contracts and other revenue streams nothing is going to change and it will only get worse.
 

Gophers1992

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I have no problem with giving all players stipends that allow them to be comfortable and go out to do things. Under NCAA rules players were not allowed to go out and get jobs because it would be easy for boosters to give them "under the table money."

However, the problem I have is that people are always saying that the players are not getting anything in return while everyone else is getting rich. Last time I looked going to college is a very big expense. Most likely $125,000 up to $200,000 depending on the school. Both my adult children have been paying on their college loans for years. So saying they are not getting anything in return is false if you value a college education.
It's complicated. Some guys are worth 100x their scholarship, while a lot of guys on the roster are arguably not worth the scholarship at all. The flaw in the whole thing was the NCAA stopping players from being able to earn their fair market value. This is what NIL solves. This is also why a fixed salary doesn't make sense.
 


RememberMurray

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I have no problem with giving all players stipends that allow them to be comfortable and go out to do things. Under NCAA rules players were not allowed to go out and get jobs because it would be easy for boosters to give them "under the table money."

However, the problem I have is that people are always saying that the players are not getting anything in return while everyone else is getting rich. Last time I looked going to college is a very big expense. Most likely $125,000 up to $200,000 depending on the school. Both my adult children have been paying on their college loans for years. So saying they are not getting anything in return is false if you value a college education.

I hate to destroy your innocence, but there are very, very rich boosters out there who are willing to pay big bucks to athletes, to get these talented people to play for their schools' teams. We're talking about huge dollars, above and beyond the value of a scholarship. These big cigar-types aren't worried in the least that you think it's all shocking and wrong. Nor do they care, even a little bit, that your kids have to pay for their own schooling.

These people have been paying for athletes, under the table, when this was all "against the rules". They'll continue to pay up now that it is 'legal'.

The only difference is it is now out in the open. You can be offended, but you can't stop it. The NCAA was never able to stop it.

Here's the truth: the big guys with the big, big bucks are used to getting exactly what they want, when they want it. They don't worry too much about the rules.
 
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CentralGopher

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This might be incredibly stupid but just throwing it out there. At a certain NIL amount maybe cut the amount of scholarships they can award so they are not able to load up on 4 and 5 star players like they do now. Sure some will walk on because they can stil get NIL money but it might help to even the playing field.
 

Gophergrandpa

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Often when, when you can’t stop something, you try to at least force disclosure. I think it would be good for the NCAA to compel all member teams to disclose on a player by player basis what each player is earning under the NIL rubric. Two reasons: (1) to ensure that schools aren’t aiding and abetting an income tax fraud on the players’ part and (2) to give the IRS something to work with in comparing payments for NIL rights versus usage of any of NIL rights, for a “sham transaction” basis to deny boosters from deducting most NIL payments as business losses or a charitable deduction. With disclosure, we’d also finally see how stacked the deck is when Texas A & M plays the true amateurs at, say, Minnesota.
 
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discochris

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Here's the truth: the big guys with the big, big bucks are used to getting exactly what they want, when they want it. They don't worry too much about the rules.
Exactly. To a guy like Phil Knight or T Boone Pickens, it's play money. It's a toy to them - paying to see their schools teams win. It's always been the case, and it always will. I've posted many times that I wish the U had a sugar daddy like that, and that I simply would not care if they were paying guys hundreds of thousands under the table if it meant the Gophers were a national power.

It's a business. Plain and simple.
 



FormerFatOL

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If I understand the current NCAA set up correctly, college divisions by NIL won't work under current guidelines because, theoretically, a D3 or D2 player can also get NIL money much less another level of Division 1.

For there to be consistent limits put in place, I would think individual schools would need to enter into a contract with each athlete stating the limits that are in place. There would need to be some form of claw-back feature in case the contract was broken. Disclosures would then need to be made annually, maybe by submitting tax returns (similar to the 1099 process now) as Gophergrandpa stated above. Schools with similar NIL boundaries could then join together in conferences and/or divisions.

This will be the wild west for a while until it's figured out.
 

RememberMurray

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This might be incredibly stupid but just throwing it out there. At a certain NIL amount maybe cut the amount of scholarships they can award so they are not able to load up on 4 and 5 star players like they do now. Sure some will walk on because they can stil get NIL money but it might help to even the playing field.

If they want the kid badly enough, the boosters would just up the amount of payola a kid needs in order to cover the extra expense of paying for tuition, and, presto; the athlete is on the team as a 'walk-on'.
 

MNSpaniel

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I've read that some of the NIL money is tied to the amount of years that they stay at the school. They don't give it all to them at once. They spread it out like an NFL contract. If they enter the portal so goes their money.
 

Gophergrandpa

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If they want the kid badly enough, the boosters would just up the amount of payola a kid needs in order to cover the extra expense of paying for tuition, and, presto; the athlete is on the team as a 'walk-on'.
Already being done. In a less publicized deal, a company (booster led, no doubt), has signed an NIL deal that covers the entire BYU football team. The deal’s specifics weren’t disclosed in the article (which I will post separately), but it is rich enough to pay the full tuition for each BYU walk-on! No idea how much the recruited, scholarship players are being paid, but I assume it must be at least as generous as payments to walk-ons. This deal means that BYU essentially can have 105 full scholarship players on its roster.

Come 2022, there will be a few, maybe several, fully-paid, professional teams playing NCAA football. The fully paid teams will be funded by wealthy boosters who are passionate about getting their school an advantage; they will not be the result of large, dispassionate corporations choosing to employ a full college football team as a marketing device.

If the NCAA does nothing to rein in legalized bagman bribes, it should at least mandate that each school disclose, on a player-by-player basis, the NIL money that it’s football players are taking in (as a direct result of membership on these schools’ football team). NIL payments should be a publicly-accessible team “stat” that is kept just like rushing, passing, tackling, etc. This could create David vs. Goliath games, which might actually stir fan interest. It will also demystify some “great” coaches. What if Texas A$M is paying it players handsomely—with certain players receiving over $1M+ a year—and requiring virtually no academic obligations from its professional players, were to lose to (or just be outplayed by) an unpaid, amateur college team comprised of true student-athletes? What does that say about the football-related abilities of the two coaches?

I hate the NIL loophole, because its principal effect, so far, is to legitimize and grossly exaggerate booster-led bagman tactics at SEC schools and their ilk. But if that is what college football has come to, can we at least have disclosure, to help fans understand the true nature of the game when Texas A$M, or Texas, or BYU—any fully paid professional team—lines up to play a bunch of dedicated, hardworking, unpaid student athletes. The NCAA owes honest fans at least that crumb.
 
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Gophergrandpa

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Here is the article about the BYU team-wide NIL deal, which will be rich enough to pay tuition for all walk-ons, apparently. See my earlier long-winded rant above (reply to Murray) about implications. BYU has overnight become a professional team, and it isn’t even close in compensation to what Texas, Texas A&M and some other schools have reportedly arranged for their players from (sham?) booster-funded LLCs.
 

Nomellini

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This has been a problem for a very long time. When Hugh McElhenny came out of the University of Washington and signed with the 49ers in 1952, he complained of having to take a pay cut.
 

Gophergrandpa

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Here is a write-up about the “charitable” organization that was formed to pay each Texas OL player at least $50K per year. (there are allegedly other organizations formed to give additional pay to Texas players). Could it be that the bagmen funding this particular deal will attempt to take a charitable deduction for these player payments? NIL so far is simply a cynical way for the NCAA to legitimize (and perhaps make tax deductible?) booster payments to players. It will be a long time before legitimate big businesses, such as publicly-held companies, get anywhere near this grimy cesspool of sanctioned bagman bribery.
 

RememberMurray

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Already being done. In a less publicized deal, a company (booster led, no doubt), has signed an NIL deal that covers the entire BYU football team. The deal’s specifics weren’t disclosed in the article (which I will post separately), but it is rich enough to pay the full tuition for each BYU walk-on! No idea how much the recruited, scholarship players are being paid, but I assume it must be at least as generous as payments to walk-ons. This deal means that BYU essentially can have 105 full scholarship players on its roster.

Come 2022, there will be a few, maybe several, fully-paid, professional teams playing NCAA football. The fully paid teams will be funded by wealthy boosters who are passionate about getting their school an advantage; they will not be the result of large, dispassionate corporations choosing to employ a full college football team as a marketing device.

If the NCAA does nothing to rein in legalized bagman bribes, it should at least mandate that each school disclose, on a player-by-player basis, the NIL money that it’s football players are taking in (as a direct result of membership on these schools’ football team). NIL payments should be a publicly-accessible team “stat” that is kept just like rushing, passing, tackling, etc. This could create David vs. Goliath games, which might actually stir fan interest. It will also demystify some “great” coaches. What if Texas A$M is paying it players handsomely—with certain players receiving over $1M+ a year—and requiring virtually no academic obligations from its professional players, were to lose to (or just be outplayed by) an unpaid, amateur college team comprised of true student-athletes? What does that say about the football-related abilities of the two coaches?

I hate the NIL loophole, because its principal effect, so far, is to legitimize and grossly exaggerate booster-led bagman tactics at SEC schools and their ilk. But if that is what college football has come to, can we at least have disclosure, to help fans understand the true nature of the game when Texas A$M, or Texas, or BYU—any fully paid professional team—lines up to play a bunch of dedicated, hardworking, unpaid student athletes. The NCAA owes honest fans at least that crumb.

Great post. I especially like the ideas you propose in your third paragraph. LOVE this: " It will also demystify some “great” coaches."

Which coach is really a great coach: a coach who perennially contends for a National Championship with a roster full of 4- and 5-star players he barely had to recruit, or a coach who has to wear himself down to an exhausted shell in order to recruit 3-stars and an occasional 4-star, and then coaches them up to be real contenders in their P5 conference?

I disagree with your last paragraph, though. I love the transparency. Let's all take a cold, hard look at which schools have the most players receiving the most loot. Then we can judge a school's football accomplishments accordingly, and much more fairly.
 

Some guy

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If I understand the current NCAA set up correctly, college divisions by NIL won't work under current guidelines because, theoretically, a D3 or D2 player can also get NIL money much less another level of Division 1.

For there to be consistent limits put in place, I would think individual schools would need to enter into a contract with each athlete stating the limits that are in place. There would need to be some form of claw-back feature in case the contract was broken. Disclosures would then need to be made annually, maybe by submitting tax returns (similar to the 1099 process now) as Gophergrandpa stated above. Schools with similar NIL boundaries could then join together in conferences and/or divisions.

This will be the wild west for a while until it's figured out.
NIL boundaries won’t hold up in court at all unless players agree to a collectively bargained contract…which would require them being on the same page enough to unionize

also, in some states that are right to work states, even with unionization there would be always around NiL limits


NIL can’t be limited per the Supreme Court
 

stocker08

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Here is the article about the BYU team-wide NIL deal, which will be rich enough to pay tuition for all walk-ons, apparently. See my earlier long-winded rant above (reply to Murray) about implications. BYU has overnight become a professional team, and it isn’t even close in compensation to what Texas, Texas A&M and some other schools have reportedly arranged for their players from (sham?) booster-funded LLCs.

Are you suggesting that scholarship calibur players will walk on at BYU because their tuition will be paid for? Wouldn't really be a draw if those players are offered D1 scholarships anyways. Or are you saying that BYU will end up building a really strong walk-on program?

I also noticed this as part of the deal: "participate in experiential events for Built". Wonder what that entails?
 

Pompous Elitist

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Are you suggesting that scholarship calibur players will walk on at BYU because their tuition will be paid for? Wouldn't really be a draw if those players are offered D1 scholarships anyways. Or are you saying that BYU will end up building a really strong walk-on program?

I also noticed this as part of the deal: "participate in experiential events for Built". Wonder what that entails?

Massages for stake Elders?
 

#2Gopher

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While this thread is not in the off-topic section. It could very well be as this is the way it is life. Rich getting richer, buying whatever. Hurting the small schools or schools with no sugar daddies as their concentration is on education. Like life, the lower class is getting lower yet, while the upper class continues to soar. Nothing new, the wealthy control everything.
 

Some guy

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Are you suggesting that scholarship calibur players will walk on at BYU because their tuition will be paid for? Wouldn't really be a draw if those players are offered D1 scholarships anyways. Or are you saying that BYU will end up building a really strong walk-on program?

I also noticed this as part of the deal: "participate in experiential events for Built". Wonder what that entails?
Probably doesn’t hurt power 5 programs but absolutely this potentially hurts programs like New Mexico State, Utah state, northern Arizona, etc

who will lose scholarship players to walk on at BYU
 

alchemy2u

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Often when, when you can’t stop something, you try to at least force disclosure. I think it would be good for the NCAA to compel all member teams to disclose on a player by player basis what each player is earning under the NIL rubric. Two reasons: (1) to ensure that schools aren’t aiding and abetting an income tax fraud on the players’ part and (2) to give the IRS something to work with in comparing payments for NIL rights versus usage of any of NIL rights, for a “sham transaction” basis to deny boosters from deducting most NIL payments as business losses or a charitable deduction. With disclosure, we’d also finally see how stacked the deck is when Texas A & M plays the true amateurs at, say, Minnesota.
I would assume there is some sort of rules on disclosure now, but that doesn't really solve the fundamental problems. It doesn't matter if everyone knows how unfair it is, because the same money teams will be winning all of the same championships. It was like the Yankees, yes they paid a lot more money but they still got credit for winning the World Series.
 

alchemy2u

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This is the end of college sports.

The schools have got to get together to agree on a more level playing field (this was the purpose of the NCAA before it died). It is in the best interest of the sport and for all the schools to have some degree of fair competition. You will have a large portion of colleges just drop sports programs instead if entering the arms race with boosters paying the way. And then it will devolve into some sort of minor league professional league that will put in place rules to prevent all of these. A small fraction of the current players will be in that league, with no education benefits an a small salary. Think of minor league baseball. A prime example of where greed and misguided judgments will have destroyed the great tradition and pastime of college football.
 


Gophergrandpa

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Are you suggesting that scholarship calibur players will walk on at BYU because their tuition will be paid for? Wouldn't really be a draw if those players are offered D1 scholarships anyways. Or are you saying that BYU will end up building a really strong walk-on program?

I also noticed this as part of the deal: "participate in experiential events for Built". Wonder what that entails?
I am suggesting that you will in all likelihood get more highly-rated players across the board, including PWOs, if you arrange for a third party to pay all of the players a significant annual royalty (and your competition isn’t arranging anything or just a pittance). Can’t prove it, of course, but my life experience leads me to believe it.
 

Gophergrandpa

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I would assume there is some sort of rules on disclosure now, but that doesn't really solve the fundamental problems. It doesn't matter if everyone knows how unfair it is, because the same money teams will be winning all of the same championships. It was like the Yankees, yes they paid a lot more money but they still got credit for winning the World Series.
I am unaware of any disclosure requirements. I will be nosing around to see. Seems like a minimum responsibility of the NCAA.
 

Gophergrandpa

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Probably doesn’t hurt power 5 programs but absolutely this potentially hurts programs like New Mexico State, Utah state, northern Arizona, etc

who will lose scholarship players to walk on at BYU
Right, a BYU type system, were it to spread broadly, could diminish the realistic player pool for schools like New Mexico State by a thousand players easily (e.g., 50 schools x 30 fully paid “walk ons”). Not much sense in fielding a team then.
 

MNVCGUY

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This is the end of college sports.

The schools have got to get together to agree on a more level playing field (this was the purpose of the NCAA before it died). It is in the best interest of the sport and for all the schools to have some degree of fair competition. You will have a large portion of colleges just drop sports programs instead if entering the arms race with boosters paying the way. And then it will devolve into some sort of minor league professional league that will put in place rules to prevent all of these. A small fraction of the current players will be in that league, with no education benefits an a small salary. Think of minor league baseball. A prime example of where greed and misguided judgments will have destroyed the great tradition and pastime of college football.
NIL and the portal may strip away the final shreds of college football having anything to do with academics but it isn't like there was some level playing field that has now been eliminated. College football has been severely unbalanced for a long time with a small group of haves and a big group of have nots. Heck look at the list of National Champs going back 20 some years.

2021 - Alabama or Georgia
2020 - Alabama
2019 - LSU
2018 - Clemson
2017 - Alabama
2016 - Clemson
2015 - Alabama
2014 - Ohio State
2013 - Florida State
2012 - Alabama
2011 - Alabama
2010 - Auburn
2009 - Alabama
2008 - Florida
2007 - LSU
2006 - Florida
2005 - Texas
2004 - USC
2003 - LSU & USC
2002 - Ohio State
2001 - Miami
2000 - Oklahoma

You know what is missing from that list....non-helmet schools. The reality is that the National Champion in college football is going to come from a relatively small pool of teams that are able to recruit/hire the top level athletes on a yearly basis and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

If anything, NIL and the portal have a chance to expand the group of teams with a legit shot of competing if they are willing to play the game and buy their way to the title. For the rest, nothing has really changed so I really don't get all the worry from fans like suddenly things are different.

College football has been big business for a long time now. The student in student athlete went away at the highest level a long time ago.
 

Some guy

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NIL and the portal may strip away the final shreds of college football having anything to do with academics but it isn't like there was some level playing field that has now been eliminated. College football has been severely unbalanced for a long time with a small group of haves and a big group of have nots. Heck look at the list of National Champs going back 20 some years.

2021 - Alabama or Georgia
2020 - Alabama
2019 - LSU
2018 - Clemson
2017 - Alabama
2016 - Clemson
2015 - Alabama
2014 - Ohio State
2013 - Florida State
2012 - Alabama
2011 - Alabama
2010 - Auburn
2009 - Alabama
2008 - Florida
2007 - LSU
2006 - Florida
2005 - Texas
2004 - USC
2003 - LSU & USC
2002 - Ohio State
2001 - Miami
2000 - Oklahoma

You know what is missing from that list....non-helmet schools. The reality is that the National Champion in college football is going to come from a relatively small pool of teams that are able to recruit/hire the top level athletes on a yearly basis and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

If anything, NIL and the portal have a chance to expand the group of teams with a legit shot of competing if they are willing to play the game and buy their way to the title. For the rest, nothing has really changed so I really don't get all the worry from fans like suddenly things are different.

College football has been big business for a long time now. The student in student athlete went away at the highest level a long time ago.
LSU is not a helmet school and hadn’t won a national title from the early 60s until nick Sagan’s arrival

from 1975-1999 LSU had 15 6+ win seasons and 11 6+ loss seasons


I don’t consider LSU a helmet school
 




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