Mark May: "Who do they ("U" Admin) think they are?"

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Looking only at the records. Wisconsin lost its one game to Michigan by 5 pts. Michigan St got PUMMELED in both of their losses, and won a game over Michigan by only 3 pts. So they were WAY closer to going 5-3 than they were to going 7-1. Michigan lost its 2 games by 3 and 6 points, but won 2 of its games by only 3 and 4 pts.

Now looking at Minnesota, it lost ALL 3 of its games by 3, 3 and 5 pts.

Minnesota comes the 2nd closest to being able to argue it could have won all 8 of its games. Wisconsin came the closest, and so maybe rightfully won the Title. But that's not the issue. The issue is how did Mason do.


In only his 3rd season, he brought us up from NOTHING. We weren't just bad, were were HORRIBLE.

Our 4-7 record the year before with Wacker as coach, was very deceptive in that it made them look way better than they actually were. There were only 3 former Gophers playing in the NFL at that time, and 1 or 2 of them had been in the NFL from before Wacker started. We ranked near the bottom in many statistical categories nationally. We only won games against the worst teams in the country and got totally spanked by good teams.


Mason came in and INSTANTLY made us more competitive.


Remember the 15-0 score of the game vs #2 PSU?! And the refs blew a HUGE call giving PSU the ball late in the game, instead of giving us a 1st down. Joe Paterno went into the Gophers locker room after the game and apologized for the bad call and told the players that they deserved to win that game.

PSU instead marched down and scored 2 tds and converted both 2 pt conversion attempts to win the game.

We also lost to Wisconsin by 1 pt that season.



The next season we lost by 1 pt to Indiana in our 2nd to last game of the season that would have sent us bowling had we won.

We only lost by 5 to Michigan. A team who was killing us previously.



And one thing that I paid a great deal of attention to, was the statistics. Our rankings in the nation and the Big Ten in all of the different statistical categories, ALL ROSE SIGNIFICANTLY.

Mason TRANSFORMED THE GOPHERS. The Big Ten was very tough, but he made us competitive.




Then 1999 came along. Had we made that one missed fg and gone to the Rose Bowl, the momentum that Mason had going for him would have been huge. My guess is he would have gotten some better recruits, gotten some major headway on the new stadium, Gopher alums seeing us with a Big Ten Title might have been energized?!



But as our gopher bad luck would have it, we missed that one fg, didn't win a Big Ten Title, and didn't get those couple of superstar recruits, and then didn't do better in the ensuing years in the very strong and competitive Big Ten.


Does Mason deserve some of the credit for that?! ABSOLUTELY, his coaching decisions lost us the Michigan game and the NCSU game.

But my whole point is that we might not have been in the position to lose those games had we a couple more top notch defensive players on our team that came here after we so quickly rose up to win a Big Ten title. Mason would have been seen as the hottest coach in the land.


Butterfly Effect.



That didn't go our way.



I wonder what happened that enabled our Gopher Golphers to make their miraculous comeback and then win a Natl Title?! Had one golf ball taken a different bounce, that whole miracle NCAA tourney run may not have happened?


But it did. And it saved the Gopher Golf program and a few other programs as well.


Just saying, a made fg vs Wisconsin just might have had a ripple effect that would have changed the last 12 years of Gopher fb history. That's all. And Mason gets a lot of grief when he did more to give Gopher fb a chance at succeeding than anyone has since Murray Warmath, and yet he gets vilified far too much.
 

B1Gsportsguy --


I say if very confidently. Winning begets winning. Had we won that game vs Wisconsin, we'd have been sitting 6-0 and playing at home vs Ohio St, and maybe our confidence would have been better and we only lost the OSU game by 3 points as well. Then we followed up that close loss with a 5 pt loss to Purdue.

Confidence coming from winning big close games like the Wisconsin game, could have led to a win over OSU, AND EVEN IF IT DIDN'T, if everything else happened just as it did, we'd have finished the season 6-2, tied for 1st in the Big Ten.


I try not to speculate too much further past the one event, the missed fg, or the possibilities would exponentially explode and it would take us years to consider them all.



But I don't have years, or months, or weeks or days to discuss this, and would prefer to keep it from even getting into hours. ONE EVENT, the missed fg. Had it occurred, its just as likely that the rest of the season plays out as it did, as its likely that making that fg would have changed other things. And the things making that fb might have changed, could have given us even more of an advantage, for example, the very next game vs Ohio St. OUR confidence would have gotten the biggest boost from beating Wisconsin and going into a home game with OSU with a 6-0 record.


Just saying.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Our 4-7 record the year before with Wacker as coach, was very deceptive in that it made them look way better than they actually were. We only won games against the worst teams in the country and got totally spanked by good teams.
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Minnesota beat Syracuse...a team that won its bowl game and lost three games (to Minnesota, to a 10-2 Mack Brown North Carolina team and a 9-3 Butch Davis Miami team).

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Mason came in and INSTANTLY made us more competitive.
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Who is arguing that?

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
1999 came along. Had we made that one missed fg and gone to the Rose Bowl, the momentum that Mason had going for him would have been huge. My guess is he would have gotten some better recruits, gotten some major headway on the new stadium, Gopher alums seeing us with a Big Ten Title might have been energized?!

But as our gopher bad luck would have it, we missed that one fg, didn't win a Big Ten Title, and didn't get those couple of superstar recruits, and then didn't do better in the ensuing years in the very strong and competitive Big Ten.
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That's a fun game to play. What if Arland Bruce hesitates for a split second at Penn State? Hello Sun Bowl.

So a 10 year coaching run with a 40% conference winning percentage should have gone on in perpetuity because of a missed FG in 1999?

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Mason would have been seen as the hottest coach in the land.
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And he would've left for a better job. Does that mean the U could get rid of Tubby because we wouldnt have fired Mason?
 

Maximus --

The Syracuse game was truly a fluke. I'm a stats guy, and like a huge geek, tracked all the relevant stats for the Gophers from before Mason got here, and watched how they got A LOT better once Mason got here.


And 40% in the Big Ten, which gets you to a lot of bowl games, is not all that bad, COMPARED to what we were doing with the 3 or 4 coaches before Mason.



I'm not even arguing that the Mason firing was a bad move. Just that it was viewed by some around the country as a strange move by a school who's history didn't warrant higher expectations. 1960 is a long time ago. We were better under Mason than we were at any time in the latter 60's through the 70's and all through the 80's and the 90s until he got here.

Had Lou Holtz stayed around just one more year, or two more, maybe I wouldn't say that, and our 1967 Big Ten Title was arguably a better season than any of Mason's, but it didn't even get us into the Top 20 of the UPI poll. So like I said, it is only arguably a better season than Mason's best.
 

And I'd trade wins over Wisconsin and OSU, in exchange for the PSU win. Had we beaten UW, maybe the extra confidence would have gotten us a win over OSU, which in turn may have led us to get over confident, and led to us losing to PSU?! Still would have put us at 6-2.


And maybe Mason, had he been the hottest thing around, may have taken another job offer, maybe OSU?! And then we could have hired a great new coach, who would have seen what Mason did with us and felt it was a great place to go?
 



howeda7 said:
It's a lot harder to succeed at MN in football than basketball.
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You keep saying this, but it really has no basis. If you go back 10 years, football has been more successful. Keep going back further and further, and it keeps tilting more and more toward football until it is ridiculously so in favor of football. If it's so much easier to succeed in basketball, why haven't we? One conference title in 31 years and two in 41 years don't count as "success" for me.
 

dpodoll68 said:
You keep saying this, but it really has no basis. If you go back 10 years, football has been more successful. Keep going back further and further, and it keeps tilting more and more toward football until it is ridiculously so in favor of football. If it's so much easier to succeed in basketball, why haven't we? One conference title in 31 years and two in 41 years don't count as "success" for me.
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In the last 10 years it hasn't been, but obviously there are reasons why. But from the 70's through the 90's it certainly was. Are the 3 B1G basketball titles in those decades a great feat? No. But it's a lot better than 0. How many times did we finish .500 or better in conference in each sport during this period? I don't have the #'s, but I'm guessing it's not that close.
 

EG#9 said:
I hate this attitude. Minnesota is a Big Ten university and should expect to compete in the Big Ten. There's no reason why Minnesota should look at itself in the light you suggest it should. Good luck getting donors for any of the projects Teague would like to complete with the idea that Minnesota has to "settle" for less than competing for conference titles.

Going to a "bowl" is also not the equivalent of the NCAA tournament, since the explosion of bowl games occurred 15-20 years ago. Mason was a cumulative 8th out of 11 (and closer to 9th than 7th) in the Big Ten during his 10 years at the helm...him vs Tubby is closer than you think though I'd agree he had more relative success.
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Fine. Replace that with 'Especially at places not named NC or Kentucky.' Bottom-line is not many coaches get fired after losing in the NCAA tournament, period. Is Ben Howland going to get canned at UCLA if they lose in the first round? I doubt it.
 




Bringing in 1 superstar in fb, impacts the team how? That one player is 1 of 20+ starters?

Bringing in 1 superstar in bb, impacts the team how? That one player is 1 of 5 starters.


THAT, is one reason why it can be easier to do well in bb at Minnesota, than in fb.


Teams like Michigan and Ohio St and Penn St were such giants in football, for so long, that they can often win regardless of who their coach is.

Teams like Indiana in bb, not so much. They were a giant when they had Knight as their coach. They've been very on again and off again since then.


And as much as Clem tainted our reputation, combine our 1972 and 82 Big Ten titles with our S16, E8 and FF appearances in the late 80s and 90s and well, Minnesota being "supposedly" successful in basketball, is something any cbb fan over the age of 30 can fathom.

How old would a person have to be to consider it possible that Minnesota could be successful in football?! 60 or 70?!
 

Iceland --

I am not Wren. Several people have figured out who I am, and I've confirmed that they were right on several occasions. I'm MinnesotaPride.


And what is so confusing about the idea that Mason transformed us into something we hadn't been in the 3 decades prior to his arriving here, and in gratitude, we fired him, which all by itself I am fine with, but now people rail on him like he was this huge failure, when he wasn't. He came 1 missed fg away from really making things happen here.

Then things settled down a bit, we kind of stagnated, allowing for his coaching flaws to rear their ugly heads at horrible times(Mich and NCSU games), and culminating in the TT debacle. I'm not criticizing his being fired. Although I would have been fine with their not firing him as well. Just saying that some people outside of Minnesota, didn't understand how Minnesotans could have such high standards, after the 30+ years of PATHETICALLY BAD football that preceded Mason's arrival.
 

howeda7 said:
In the last 10 years it hasn't been, but obviously there are reasons why. But from the 70's through the 90's it certainly was. Are the 3 B1G basketball titles in those decades a great feat? No. But it's a lot better than 0. How many times did we finish .500 or better in conference in each sport during this period? I don't have the #'s, but I'm guessing it's not that close.
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Two Big Ten basketball titles, not three.

.500+ Big Ten seasons in basketball, 1970-1999: 11

.500+ Big Ten seasons in football, 1970-1999: 10

Conveniently, you picked out the 3 decades that were during the lowest point of the football program, and were also among the highest points of the basketball program. And it's still virtually a wash. I'll say it again - your insistent claims of it being easier to succeed at basketball than football at Minnesota have zero historical basis. If you want to claim that the potential and ceiling are higher in basketball, fine - that's at least a defensible argument. As things now stand, your claim has no leg whatsoever to stand on.
 



dpodoll68 said:
Two Big Ten basketball titles, not three.

.500+ Big Ten seasons in basketball, 1970-1999: 11

.500+ Big Ten seasons in football, 1970-1999: 10

Conveniently, you picked out the 3 decades that were during the lowest point of the football program, and were also among the highest points of the basketball program. And it's still virtually a wash. I'll say it again - your insistent claims of it being easier to succeed at basketball than football at Minnesota have zero historical basis. If you want to claim that the potential and ceiling are higher in basketball, fine - that's at least a defensible argument. As things now stand, your claim has no leg whatsoever to stand on.
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I'm surprised by the # of .500 seasons in football, so I'll stand corrected on that. I'll put it another way. A measure of a 'good' basketball season for many is making the Sweet 16. A measure of a 'good' football season for many is making a New Year's Day Bowl. From 1989-1999 the basketball team made 3 Sweet 16's. The football team hasn't made New Year's Day Bowl in 50 years. It seems like it's a lot more difficult. But that's just me.
 

Just saying that some people outside of Minnesota, didn't understand how Minnesotans could have such high standards, after the 30+ years of PATHETICALLY BAD football that preceded Mason's arrival.

Then those people weren't paying attention to Mason's behavior during his last year. The President of the U and the boosters who wanted it done were. Brewster's record should have made all those people regret the firing the NEXT SEASON, but at the time they had no regrets. Much like the people who were afraid that Monson would take the Washington job we're screaming for his firing a few years later. Those discussions have taken place many, MANY times around here since it happened as you regardless of who you are, or who's style you've taken, are probably aware of too. :eek: May's a "talking head" who's main job is to generate controversy. His constant "Point/Counterpoint" arguments with Lying Lou leads one to believe that his heart may not be in any statement he makes even the ones referred to here.
 

howeda7 said:
From 1989-1999 the basketball team made 3 Sweet 16's.
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Two.

howeda7 said:
It seems like it's a lot more difficult. But that's just me.
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I don't think there's any question that the basketball team has tons and tons more untapped potential than the football team. But until potential is actually realized, it remains just potential.
 

Hey gang - this is the basketball board, remember. The original point of this thread was that MN would be criticized if they fired Tubby.

Well, I'll just say this - the season is not over yet. Right now, everyone is on a sugar high after the Indiana game - but if the Gophs lose to Penn State on Saturday, all that good feeling and momentum goes right out the window. With a team this inconsistent, I don't think anyone can count on a strong finish. The Gophs could run the table and finish 10-8 in the conference - OR they could lose the last 3 games and finish 7-11 in the conference.

I'm not making a prediction here - I'm just saying that, IF the Gophs would lose their last 3 regular season games, lose in the 1st round of the B1G tournament, and lose in the 1st round of the NCAA's, then we have an entirely different situation. In that event, I don't think you'd have a lot of people leaping to Tubby's defense.

I defy anyone to tell me what this team is going to do, or how they're going to play from game to game.
 

Iceland --


"who'se(sic) style I've taken"?! LMAO!!!! I leave the forum for 5 years, come back and get recognized by 4 or 5 different posters, and you claim I've taken on someone else's style?!!! Wow.

I've been here at the GH since 1999. I took a few years off and came back with a different moniker, but made no effort to hide who I am/was, because I like myself and am fine with the fact that I'm longwinded and repetitive and annoying to some. That's just who I am.

I defended Mason, and I've defended Tubby. They fired Mason and we got a worse coach, and had to basically start over from scratch, and we still don't know yet whether we've found the guy who will take us to that next level. So far he's done less than Mason did in his first 3 years.

Tubby's done more for Minnesota bb than any coach in the last 50 years if not since 1920?! But who knows, give him 3 more years and he could found out to be a cheat just like Musselman and Clem as well?!

But until then, his accomplishments, though lacking in comparison to our Big Ten competitors, are pretty good compared to the accomplishments of Gopher bb of the past.

Finishing 3rd in the Big Ten when only 1 Big Ten team even made it into the Top 20 is hardly a season that should be put up against this season for example, where fully FIVE Big Ten teams are almost guaranteed to finish in the rankings. If we finish 6th, and probably in the rankings if we do, then how could it not be deemed a better finish than a 2nd or 3rd place finish in a year when only 1 Big Ten team made the rankings?!??!!


And if Tubby takes us to the Elite 8 or FF, how could it not be seen as more of an accomplishment that the 72 or 82 teams only having to play 1 game combined to get to those 2 Sweet 16s, where they both lost?!
 

It's simple, are we to gauge Tubby & past coaches vs how they did against Big Ten competition, or the nation?


If we gauge them according to how they did vs the Big Ten, then I agree, Tubby's a HUGE failure in comparison to past coaches.


If we gauge them according to how they did vs THE NATION as a whole, then Tubby's arguably #1 among non-cheaters.
 

"who'se(sic) style I've taken"?! LMAO!!!! I leave the forum for 5 years, come back and get recognized by 4 or 5 different posters, and you claim I've taken on someone else's style?!!! Wow.

Did you see the :eek: or did you just start typing? I've done that too.
 

You got me, I just started typing. Couldn't resist the temptation to poke fun of myself.

But unless you go to the off-topic forum, I'm getting better at shortening "some" of my posts. I'll keep working on it.

And why again do I remind some people of wren? He was a big Mason supporter, right? Is that the only similarity?!
 

One win or one loss will not make or break Tubby. He needs to get to the sweet 16 to save his job. If we look at the overall body of work for the Tubby Smith era, it has been a huge disappointment. Of course we cannot blame Tubby for everything. He had a weak administration under Joel Maturi but Tubby is still accountable for the poor results. Teague will look at the
full body of work under Tubby's reign. Short of a sweet 16 appearance, he will be gone.....
 

millions2spare said:
One win or one loss will not make or break Tubby. He needs to get to the sweet 16 to save his job. If we look at the overall body of work for the Tubby Smith era, it has been a huge disappointment. Of course we cannot blame Tubby for everything. He had a weak administration under Joel Maturi but Tubby is still accountable for the poor results. Teague will look at the
full body of work under Tubby's reign. Short of a sweet 16 appearance, he will be gone.....
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Disagree. Finish regular season strong, win one in BTT and one in NCAA and I think he stays.
 




If the Big 3 were impressed with how the team played vs IU, and even moreso how the fans reacted afterwards, and if they are impressed with how Tubby finishes off this season, and they all commit to play for Tubby, we could be stuck with him for a long time?!

I could think of worse things.
 

millions2spare said:
One win or one loss will not make or break Tubby. He needs to get to the sweet 16 to save his job. If we look at the overall body of work for the Tubby Smith era, it has been a huge disappointment. Of course we cannot blame Tubby for everything. He had a weak administration under Joel Maturi but Tubby is still accountable for the poor results. Teague will look at the
full body of work under Tubby's reign. Short of a sweet 16 appearance, he will be gone.....
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Really a sweet sixteen? That is unrealistic to put that on this team and coach to save his job and cost the university 2.5 million for a buyout. I like winning, I like seeing good kids that represent Minnesota well on the court.
 


To answer the question, I know who they think they are: the AD and staff at a major university having a responsibility to do the best things for the institution and its fans even if that means taking a risk like this.
 

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