Marcus article: Gophers are hiring while Big Ten men’s basketball has zero Black head coaches again

Please explain why first time head coaches matters. Not arguing it doesn't, but truly don't understand the point this makes. My guess - purely from a math and logic standpoint - is that the percentage of first time head coaches that are black > the overall percentage of head coaches. And that gets back to my question about what difference does this data point make in the discussion.

Also, I don't think any school at any level is being intentionally racist - I would give the benefit of the doubt that they are all selecting based on merit. But there does appear to be a structural imbalance that isn't any one actor's doing. I have no answers, but I see the problem.
There is so much recycling that goes on in the coaching ranks. So if the ratio of white to black coaches is off it isn't going to change a ton in a given coaching cycle because many coaches will just move from one job to another one.

And it makes sense that teams are going to want to hire coaches with experience over a brand new head coach in a lot of cases.

So to me the focus should be on guys getting that first opportunity. If more of the brand new head coaches are minorities then over time that should help the overall ratios as those new coaches get on the coaching carousel and move from job to job.
 

There is so much recycling that goes on in the coaching ranks. So if the ratio of white to black coaches is off it isn't going to change a ton in a given coaching cycle because many coaches will just move from one job to another one.

And it makes sense that teams are going to want to hire coaches with experience over a brand new head coach in a lot of cases.

So to me the focus should be on guys getting that first opportunity. If more of the brand new head coaches are minorities then over time that should help the overall ratios as those new coaches get on the coaching carousel and move from job to job.
Regarding recycling, it's not just coaching.

Expanding on your thought(s), often times if there is an opportunity it is in a high stakes/ potential high reward scenario. Example a currently struggling program looking for a coach. Not always a good situation for a first timer.

Coaching is tough. Sometimes coaches feel like they have to take any opportunity because they may feel like that is their only shot.

If you are a healthy version of a Jerry Kill, it could work. For him, it kind of did if you take into account lack of support in the AD office at the time.
 


Maybe Marcus could do a respective puff piece on John Thompson and his reverse racism stance built on his quote, “A white player will never start for me.”

Yes, he should write an article trashing a guy who died almost five years ago and retired from coaching about 28 years ago.
 

Maybe Marcus could do a respective puff piece on John Thompson and his reverse racism stance built on his quote, “A white player will never start for me.”

Wonder what John thinks of Mr Flagg.
He actually said that? Not old enough to have followed Georgetown in the 80's. Wild if true. Also a crazy perspective if the goal is to end racism.
 


Maybe Marcus could do a respective puff piece on John Thompson and his reverse racism stance built on his quote, “A white player will never start for me.”

Wonder what John thinks of Mr Flagg.
Isn't Georgetown in DC?
 

Hey Marcus,

There has never been a transgender coach in the Big 10.

What the hell, Marcus?
Is it not weird to leave out Asian Americans or Latinos from this conversation?

I get that basketball is dominated by African Americans at a high level but, in terms of the general populace that play or have an interest, I'm sure the interest is much broader but time and time again we see writers extrapolating NBA or college coaching expectations from the body of folks that played at those levels.

Also...as it is so overwhelmingly Black, it'd be nice to see the NBA trying to spread interest domestically to groups that are underrepresented, much like you see baseball initiatives for urban kids. Maybe they exist and I'm just not aware...
 

If more of the brand new head coaches are minorities then over time that should help the overall ratios as those new coaches get on the coaching carousel and move from job to job.
In theory, but I would speculate that it has not happened in practice.

Not every coaching vacancy that goes to a current head coach is a "recycle", I guess depending how you define it. I was thinking there are promotions (May going from FAU to Michigan), laterals (Musselman from Ark to USC), and demotions (Pitino to UNM). It's really that last category that's a "recycle" to me. 3 of the last 4 B10 black head coaches (Howard, Woodson, and now Johnson -maybe) are unlikely to get a new head coaching opportunity at a lower level. Shrewsberry went lateral. Not sure about guys like Villanova's Neptune. You can say they failed, and I wouldn't argue with that, but so did Pitino (I guess his name helps, so maybe not the best example), and guys like Herb Sendek and Tim Miles are still employed, too. This is anecdotal, of course, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of examples of former big-time black coaches getting another opportunity at lower levels.
 

In theory, but I would speculate that it has not happened in practice.

Not every coaching vacancy that goes to a current head coach is a "recycle", I guess depending how you define it. I was thinking there are promotions (May going from FAU to Michigan), laterals (Musselman from Ark to USC), and demotions (Pitino to UNM). It's really that last category that's a "recycle" to me. 3 of the last 4 B10 black head coaches (Howard, Woodson, and now Johnson -maybe) are unlikely to get a new head coaching opportunity at a lower level. Shrewsberry went lateral. Not sure about guys like Villanova's Neptune. You can say they failed, and I wouldn't argue with that, but so did Pitino (I guess his name helps, so maybe not the best example), and guys like Herb Sendek and Tim Miles are still employed, too. This is anecdotal, of course, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of examples of former big-time black coaches getting another opportunity at lower levels.
I think Johnson is more likely to get a gig than Howard or Woodson, both of whom were in it specifically for a certain school and to me are not really long term college coaches. Johnson won't be bad on a lower level. He'll learn and he is likely heading to a level he should have been learning at before coming here.
 



I think we should be careful assuming that the primary pool of P5 head coaches is the P5 assistant ranks. If I am an AD at a P5 school, I’m looking for someone who has demonstrated the ability to succeed as a head coach at progressively more difficult levels. Assistants at P5 schools are most likely to get the head job when their boss leaves for another opportunity, and/or they have long-standing ties to the school.

Otherwise, it’s a risky proposition for any AD, when assessing whether to hire an assistant away from a successful P5 program vs going with a successful head coach at a lower level. How does one gauge how much of a program’s success can be attributed to an assistant and is that coach capable of successfully running their own program?

I think one solution is to try and encourage more younger Black coaches to gain experience as head coaches at low- and mid-majors. I simply don’t think there are enough young Black coaches rising through the head coaching ranks right now. Dennis Gates is an example of a coach who went that route.
He proved he could win at Cleveland State, and he was pretty quickly in demand for multiple P5 jobs. ADs often want some proof that a candidate knows how to coach AND how to run a program. Not just theory, but practice.
 

Link
"An analysis by The Associated Press found Black coaches holding 59.4% of assistant roles in the top six basketball leagues – the Atlantic Coast, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, Pac-12, and Southeastern conferences – for the 2022-23 season. Yet the rate for Black coaches holding the top jobs was 29.9% compared with white coaches (64.9%)"

This blows a hole in the talent pool theory, assuming the assistant coach pool is the most common rung before head coach.
The AP's statistical analysis is too simplistic to draw any conclusions. There are implied assumptions that are clearly incorrect. I think there is a generic issue at heart, as well as, some ones specific to this issue.

Generically

I think one reason is likely due to the Legal community introducing the horrid idea (statistically horrid, I Legal portion is completely separate) of "Disparate Impact." So much bad statistical analysis has its ideas at its heart when discussing racial issues.

The problem created by its invalid statistical concepts are applied which leads to problems properly identifying what the problem actually is, or maybe more aptly, where the problem lies. It follows that if one cannot define a problem, they cannot solve said problem. People that are motivated to solve said problems are inclined to latch onto it emotionally and then not think it through.

Specifically

The AP is not considering Lag time. head coaches don't start out as young men. It is almost never below 40. Heck, even assistants usually are breaking in at a little more advanced age. They cut there Chops at High schools and elsewhere. Moreover, head coaches last a very long time. There are not many P4 opportunities.

Additionally, There is an assumption in society that coaches should reflect the league they coach in instead of the actual population that coaches are made from. This is a problematic fallacy. It should reflect the entire population that are interested in coaching that specific sport. The introduction of women as male professional sport coaches should blow that assumption up. It hasn't yet.

You don't learn to coach by playing a sport. You almost learn nothing about coaching, by just playing. You can.

You can learn it by watching what good coaches do up close. However, you actually have to watch and analyze it from that perspective, instead of from the perspective of learning the game. Coaching X and Os is usually book study. Learning teaching, adapting, ,motivating, psychology, systems thinking, are not done while playing in game. That's probably why the bench warmers are often better suited than stars. Then you have to learn its application. There is more, that is beyond the scope of a post.

Once again just so its not confusing I am not stating one cannot learn some coaching from playing a sport at a high level. That is not true. One can learn a lot. I am getting at that coaching is a discipline all unto itself - it must be practiced. It must be learned specifically.

An illustrative anecdote comes from John Wooden. I read something he wrote where he attributes how he learned to become a great basketball coach not from coaching basketball at all. He learned it from the single year he coached baseball. As a baseball coach myself, I think (Hypothesizing from his other stuff) he took mental toughness elements that are inherently necessary to even be competitive in baseball, and brought them to basketball. They work even better there (and are mimicked by Izzo,, Daddy Pitino, Wooden, Spoelestra, and others).
 

In theory, but I would speculate that it has not happened in practice.

Not every coaching vacancy that goes to a current head coach is a "recycle", I guess depending how you define it. I was thinking there are promotions (May going from FAU to Michigan), laterals (Musselman from Ark to USC), and demotions (Pitino to UNM). It's really that last category that's a "recycle" to me. 3 of the last 4 B10 black head coaches (Howard, Woodson, and now Johnson -maybe) are unlikely to get a new head coaching opportunity at a lower level. Shrewsberry went lateral. Not sure about guys like Villanova's Neptune. You can say they failed, and I wouldn't argue with that, but so did Pitino (I guess his name helps, so maybe not the best example), and guys like Herb Sendek and Tim Miles are still employed, too. This is anecdotal, of course, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of examples of former big-time black coaches getting another opportunity at lower levels.
Recycle was probably not a great word choice. Just referring to the fact that a lot of job openings are filled by current head coaches and a lot of times those existing head coaches are going to be white because there are a larger percentage of current head coaches who are white. May going to Michigan is an example.

On the flip side of that, FAU hired a first time head coach so those would be the interesting positions to track and see how many of those first time head coaching hires went to Black coaches.

Edit - so of the two job openings - FAU and Michigan - the hiring choices of FAU should get more scrutiny since they hired a first time head coach whereas Michigan hired a head coach with experience.
 
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I think we should be careful assuming that the primary pool of P5 head coaches is the P5 assistant ranks. If I am an AD at a P5 school, I’m looking for someone who has demonstrated the ability to succeed as a head coach at progressively more difficult levels. Assistants at P5 schools are most likely to get the head job when their boss leaves for another opportunity, and/or they have long-standing ties to the school.

Otherwise, it’s a risky proposition for any AD, when assessing whether to hire an assistant away from a successful P5 program vs going with a successful head coach at a lower level. How does one gauge how much of a program’s success can be attributed to an assistant and is that coach capable of successfully running their own program?

I think one solution is to try and encourage more younger Black coaches to gain experience as head coaches at low- and mid-majors. I simply don’t think there are enough young Black coaches rising through the head coaching ranks right now. Dennis Gates is an example of a coach who went that route.
He proved he could win at Cleveland State, and he was pretty quickly in demand for multiple P5 jobs. ADs often want some proof that a candidate knows how to coach AND how to run a program. Not just theory, but practice.

I don't buy Hallman's premise. I think we are enlightened enuf that ad's dont exhibit bias when hiring head bb coaches. Universities lean significantly left so there is that as well.

If anything I would think black coaches are preferred, all things being equal. From a competitive standpoint ad's would find it an dvantage to hire a head coach with whom his players can more easily identify.
 
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I had the same gut reaction as Marcus to 0 of 18 B1G coaches being black: WTAF?? It reallly is statistically improbable But the data to support any pattern of discriminatory hiring does not exist, and if it does, Marcus sure isn’t using it. If there were tons of highly successful minority coaches in low D1 not getting step-up chances or minorities stuck in Associate HC jobs at winning programs for way too long without getting an HC (think: Tony Dungy), those would be patterns of discrimination. But there’s no evidence either are happening.
 

I think Johnson is more likely to get a gig than Howard or Woodson, both of whom were in it specifically for a certain school and to me are not really long term college coaches. Johnson won't be bad on a lower level. He'll learn and he is likely heading to a level he should have been learning at before coming here.
Yeah I would think Ben would get hired as an assistant in the near future. By all accounts he was a decent recruiter and assistant coach, just not ready for the lead job.
 

I had the same gut reaction as Marcus to 0 of 18 B1G coaches being black: WTAF?? It reallly is statistically improbable But the data to support any pattern of discriminatory hiring does not exist, and if it does, Marcus sure isn’t using it. If there were tons of highly successful minority coaches in low D1 not getting step-up chances or minorities stuck in Associate HC jobs at winning programs for way too long without getting an HC (think: Tony Dungy), those would be patterns of discrimination. But there’s no evidence either are happening.
This. B1G fan bases would be calling for their AD's head if they passed up a qualified coach to hire a lesser competent coach due to skin color. I can only assume Coyle hired Johnson because he felt he was the right fit at the time, and the best chance to help the Gophers win based on what we were willing to pay a head coach. He was spectacularly wrong, but it is what it is. It's far too competitive at this level to ignore anything that could give you an advantage over the competition.
 

I think we should be careful assuming that the primary pool of P5 head coaches is the P5 assistant ranks.
I stopped reading after this. This was not the assumption. Ben Johnson aside, the normal career progression for a P5 assistant is to get a low- or mid-major head coaching job first before going to a major (regardless of one's race). DeVries went from Creighton assistant to Drake head coach to WVU (and now IU). That's the traditional route.

But one of the primary pools for those low- to mid-majors IS the P5 assistant coach ranks.
 

I think Johnson is more likely to get a gig than Howard or Woodson, both of whom were in it specifically for a certain school and to me are not really long term college coaches. Johnson won't be bad on a lower level. He'll learn and he is likely heading to a level he should have been learning at before coming here.
Agree on Howard and Woodson. We'll see if anyone picks up Johnson as a head man - not sure anyone will
 

none apparently have better qualifications that the new hires. Simple as that.
 






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