Leach > Kill; Brohm > Fleck ??

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salzie said:
So you'd pass on brohm, Campbell, etc?
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I'm just saying on someone like Fleck there needs to be a clear path to success (e.g., awesome recruiting of P5 players; an offense and/or defense that is so unique (e.g., Chip Kelly, who I don't personally like BTW) that it will take other P5 coaches years to adapt. Other than that go with a P5 coach who had prior success (e.g., Bobby Ross who we reportedly passed on)
 

salzie said:
MN isn't a destination job, taking chances is something they have to do.

Established coaches certainly aren't coming here if they know win right away or your fired.


But I doubt we'll come agreement.
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You may be right but I don't know enough about Brohm's industry status before Purdue hired him.
 

As a Fleck defender, maybe I haven't expressed it, yes there are concerns.

Here are the concerns I have:

1. Overall Defense. I'm not sold on Robb Smith and haven't been. I don't know how much is REALLY on him vs personnel. My guess is both. Seems like some teams can coach defenses where the players are more interchangeable, where we turn to absolute crap the minute our one player goes done. Granted, there have been more injuries since then, but schematically we must have razor thin margins for errors which we didn't have with Kill / Claeys.

2. Defensive line. We have guys playing out of position and next year will likely be worse. Fleck has a good class of D-lineman coming in, but I assume they will all redshirt next year so our defense will be younger.

3. QB. I'm not sure either QB is Big Ten title winning caliber, but both are serviceable and we use a third option with Wild Cat to help change things up to compensate. Also, I think we have better QB's coming in recruiting. These should arguably be the worst two QB's Fleck has during his tenure here.

4. O-line. This was a concern until two weeks ago. Now it looks like our second best area of optimism after our WR's.

5. RB's. - I don't think our freshman are great. I think SB4 and RS1 are both head and shoulders better RB's than what we've recruited with Fleck so far. This needs to improve.

I'm not concerned with Fleck from a recruiting standpoint. He's delivering there.
I'm not concerned with Fleck from a coaching standpoint. He seems to make decent judgements with his game day decisions (but this can be nitpicked apart 6 times a game).
I'm not concerned with what he's saying. He's largely telling the truth from what I can tell with the regular coach spin to protect his players as much as you can while still explaining why the defense allowed a 65 yard run.

The biggest concern I'll have with Fleck is if he is staying loyal to a bad Defensive Coordinator too long out of loyalty instead of cutting bait at the point Fleck believes there is a real issue. My guess is Fleck is talking to people in his network about how to know when it's the right time to pull a plug on a guy, but at this point, I think he believes in the scheme and that with the right players, it will work. If that's the case though, PJ has to know what his timeline is for this improvement because the wick is already lit on the bomb so he has to know if he needs to cut it or not.
 

Face The Facts said:
As a Fleck defender, maybe I haven't expressed it, yes there are concerns.

Here are the concerns I have:

1. Overall Defense. I'm not sold on Robb Smith and haven't been. I don't know how much is REALLY on him vs personnel. My guess is both. Seems like some teams can coach defenses where the players are more interchangeable, where we turn to absolute crap the minute our one player goes done. Granted, there have been more injuries since then, but schematically we must have razor thin margins for errors which we didn't have with Kill / Claeys.

2. Defensive line. We have guys playing out of position and next year will likely be worse. Fleck has a good class of D-lineman coming in, but I assume they will all redshirt next year so our defense will be younger.

3. QB. I'm not sure either QB is Big Ten title winning caliber, but both are serviceable and we use a third option with Wild Cat to help change things up to compensate. Also, I think we have better QB's coming in recruiting. These should arguably be the worst two QB's Fleck has during his tenure here.

4. O-line. This was a concern until two weeks ago. Now it looks like our second best area of optimism after our WR's.

5. RB's. - I don't think our freshman are great. I think SB4 and RS1 are both head and shoulders better RB's than what we've recruited with Fleck so far. This needs to improve.

I'm not concerned with Fleck from a recruiting standpoint. He's delivering there.
I'm not concerned with Fleck from a coaching standpoint. He seems to make decent judgements with his game day decisions (but this can be nitpicked apart 6 times a game).
I'm not concerned with what he's saying. He's largely telling the truth from what I can tell with the regular coach spin to protect his players as much as you can while still explaining why the defense allowed a 65 yard run.

The biggest concern I'll have with Fleck is if he is staying loyal to a bad Defensive Coordinator too long out of loyalty instead of cutting bait at the point Fleck believes there is a real issue. My guess is Fleck is talking to people in his network about how to know when it's the right time to pull a plug on a guy, but at this point, I think he believes in the scheme and that with the right players, it will work. If that's the case though, PJ has to know what his timeline is for this improvement because the wick is already lit on the bomb so he has to know if he needs to cut it or not.
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+1..
 

Face The Facts said:
I don't think anyone is saying Brohm isn't a good coach.
The two programs are apples and oranges right now is my point.

I'm still of the belief Minnesota was going to fall off a cliff regardless of coach.
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Your right. Using the magical determiner of all things, the 247 Sports Team Talent Metric, the Gophers rank 48th and Purdue 71st. No comparison.

But our talent is so young, I hear PJ Fleck cry (a lot).

So let's look at the numbers going back a few years:

2017 - Gophers 63, Purdue 71 Purdue wins 31-17
2016 - Gophers 58, Purdue 68 Minnesota wins 44 - 31
2015 - Purdue 59 - Minnesota 64 Minnesota wins 41 - 13

The situations are different, but Blough was terrible before Brohm. Coaching helped. Brohm is finding ways to get what he can out of the players on the roster until he can rebuild it the way he wants. That's coaching. He's taken a different approach with a team that was a total dumpster fire.

That said, it's a process, as someone pointed - they lost to Eastern Michigan. It's not all sunshine a rainbows in West Lafayette any more than it is in Minneapolis. even before last nights win, they had hope based on results at Purdue. We have hope based on the fact that he did it at Western Michigan.
 


John Galt said:
It’s pretty hard to overcome players that can’t tackle...
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I wonder if you can teach someone to tackle? Maybe coach them? I've seen it happen where guys who could not tackle at all, become sure and steady tacklers and decent tacklers become stellar defenders with a little coaching.
 

It's not all sunshine and rainbows in Columbus this week.
 


Face The Facts said:
As a Fleck defender, maybe I haven't expressed it, yes there are concerns.

Here are the concerns I have:

1. Overall Defense. I'm not sold on Robb Smith and haven't been. I don't know how much is REALLY on him vs personnel. My guess is both. Seems like some teams can coach defenses where the players are more interchangeable, where we turn to absolute crap the minute our one player goes done. Granted, there have been more injuries since then, but schematically we must have razor thin margins for errors which we didn't have with Kill / Claeys.

2. Defensive line. We have guys playing out of position and next year will likely be worse. Fleck has a good class of D-lineman coming in, but I assume they will all redshirt next year so our defense will be younger.

3. QB. I'm not sure either QB is Big Ten title winning caliber, but both are serviceable and we use a third option with Wild Cat to help change things up to compensate. Also, I think we have better QB's coming in recruiting. These should arguably be the worst two QB's Fleck has during his tenure here.

4. O-line. This was a concern until two weeks ago. Now it looks like our second best area of optimism after our WR's.

5. RB's. - I don't think our freshman are great. I think SB4 and RS1 are both head and shoulders better RB's than what we've recruited with Fleck so far. This needs to improve.

I'm not concerned with Fleck from a recruiting standpoint. He's delivering there.
I'm not concerned with Fleck from a coaching standpoint. He seems to make decent judgements with his game day decisions (but this can be nitpicked apart 6 times a game).
I'm not concerned with what he's saying. He's largely telling the truth from what I can tell with the regular coach spin to protect his players as much as you can while still explaining why the defense allowed a 65 yard run.

The biggest concern I'll have with Fleck is if he is staying loyal to a bad Defensive Coordinator too long out of loyalty instead of cutting bait at the point Fleck believes there is a real issue. My guess is Fleck is talking to people in his network about how to know when it's the right time to pull a plug on a guy, but at this point, I think he believes in the scheme and that with the right players, it will work. If that's the case though, PJ has to know what his timeline is for this improvement because the wick is already lit on the bomb so he has to know if he needs to cut it or not.
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You've laid things out pretty well. I'm disappointed and most of my disappointment stems from what appears to be a vanilla scheme on defense and if you are going to go vanilla, you have to have a lot more talent/experience on that side of the ball than we currently have. I'd prefer an offense with a TE as I think that would provide a more ready option on a checkdown in blitz situations.

There's no excuse for Coney Durr's performance on the two long runs yesterday. Anyone who has played junior high football understands that you have to seal the edge.
 



Face The Facts said:
As a Fleck defender, maybe I haven't expressed it, yes there are concerns.

Here are the concerns I have:

1. Overall Defense. I'm not sold on Robb Smith and haven't been. I don't know how much is REALLY on him vs personnel. My guess is both. Seems like some teams can coach defenses where the players are more interchangeable, where we turn to absolute crap the minute our one player goes done. Granted, there have been more injuries since then, but schematically we must have razor thin margins for errors which we didn't have with Kill / Claeys.

2. Defensive line. We have guys playing out of position and next year will likely be worse. Fleck has a good class of D-lineman coming in, but I assume they will all redshirt next year so our defense will be younger.

3. QB. I'm not sure either QB is Big Ten title winning caliber, but both are serviceable and we use a third option with Wild Cat to help change things up to compensate. Also, I think we have better QB's coming in recruiting. These should arguably be the worst two QB's Fleck has during his tenure here.

4. O-line. This was a concern until two weeks ago. Now it looks like our second best area of optimism after our WR's.

5. RB's. - I don't think our freshman are great. I think SB4 and RS1 are both head and shoulders better RB's than what we've recruited with Fleck so far. This needs to improve.

I'm not concerned with Fleck from a recruiting standpoint. He's delivering there.
I'm not concerned with Fleck from a coaching standpoint. He seems to make decent judgements with his game day decisions (but this can be nitpicked apart 6 times a game).
I'm not concerned with what he's saying. He's largely telling the truth from what I can tell with the regular coach spin to protect his players as much as you can while still explaining why the defense allowed a 65 yard run.

The biggest concern I'll have with Fleck is if he is staying loyal to a bad Defensive Coordinator too long out of loyalty instead of cutting bait at the point Fleck believes there is a real issue. My guess is Fleck is talking to people in his network about how to know when it's the right time to pull a plug on a guy, but at this point, I think he believes in the scheme and that with the right players, it will work. If that's the case though, PJ has to know what his timeline is for this improvement because the wick is already lit on the bomb so he has to know if he needs to cut it or not.
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So to summarize you have concerns with the entire defense and offense with the exception of WR’s. And besides your potential issue with Fleck holding on to the D Coordinator too long, he’s doing a fine job otherwise. Hopefully I’ve summarized this half-accurately.

Would it be safe to assume then that Fleck is meeting your expectations and their play thus far has been to your satisfaction due to the challenges you’ve articulated.
 

I mentioned it on another thread, but curious to know when Coyle will add more years to PJ’s contract? I’m thinking it’ll happen after next year. He for sure is getting two more years to right the ship, but how many years does MC add to the contract? Raise? I’m sure PJ is going to say for recruiting purposes he needs a longer contract.


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Face The Facts said:
As a Fleck defender, maybe I haven't expressed it, yes there are concerns.

Here are the concerns I have:

1. Overall Defense. I'm not sold on Robb Smith and haven't been. I don't know how much is REALLY on him vs personnel. My guess is both. Seems like some teams can coach defenses where the players are more interchangeable, where we turn to absolute crap the minute our one player goes done. Granted, there have been more injuries since then, but schematically we must have razor thin margins for errors which we didn't have with Kill / Claeys.

2. Defensive line. We have guys playing out of position and next year will likely be worse. Fleck has a good class of D-lineman coming in, but I assume they will all redshirt next year so our defense will be younger.

3. QB. I'm not sure either QB is Big Ten title winning caliber, but both are serviceable and we use a third option with Wild Cat to help change things up to compensate. Also, I think we have better QB's coming in recruiting. These should arguably be the worst two QB's Fleck has during his tenure here.

4. O-line. This was a concern until two weeks ago. Now it looks like our second best area of optimism after our WR's.

5. RB's. - I don't think our freshman are great. I think SB4 and RS1 are both head and shoulders better RB's than what we've recruited with Fleck so far. This needs to improve.
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Well said, my take on your points from above.
1. Without having the numbers and all that it definitely feels like Claeys did a much better job building his scheme around the players he had to work with. The loss of Winfield was a massive blow to the D but that was a few weeks ago and they seem to still be really struggling to figure things out. The big plays are killing us and that is almost always the result of a mental mistake or a missed tackle on the field. Sure that can be pinned on the coaches as well but the two big runs Nebraska had early Saturday are prime examples of the players blowing their assignment and disaster happening because of it. Will be interesting to see if Fleck replaces Smith if things don't get better on that side of the ball over the remainder of the season.

2. D-Line has been a sore spot for a long long time now. Coughlin does a heck of a job for someone undersized and playing out of position but you probably have to go all the way back to the Mason years to find a time when we had a really strong defensive line. This was one of the positions the previous staff had a really hard time recruiting and very little success. Time will tell if the guys Fleck is bringing in can get the job done.

3. Speaking of positions where the recruiting has not been good, QB would definitely be on that list. Think it is too early to say one way or another on Annexstad or Morgan. Not sure either has a super high ceiling but both look like they could be upgrades over the past few years at least.

4. Think there is hope for O-Line becoming a strength again over the next few years.

5. Think it is a little early to make a determination on the young RB. Ibrahim's numbers as a freshman are better than what Rodney Smith was able to do in his freshman year. Obviously given the choice of a healthy Smith or Brooks right now I would go that route but I don't think the freshman have done that poorly.

Overall the defense has been disappointing and we all hate losing. The Purdue upset against Ohio State makes things look worse as people want to make the direct comparison between the state of the programs. Of course you could also look at us compared to say Illinois over a similar period or Rutgers or Maryland. It is easy to take one example of a team having some success in year 2 and use that to support the argument that our guy is failing when that is the case you want to make (by you I of course mean those that want to bash Fleck).

The next two games are huge for this season. Indiana and Illinois are both very beatable and it would be huge for the program to run off a few victories in a row to get some confidence going heading into the final stretch against Purdue, Northwestern and Wisconsin. 6 wins are still attainable for this season but these next two are key.
 

A clear path to success? Seems to be wishful thinking considering MN is not a destination job. If it were that easy, every AD would pick that option.

At some point, all successful coaches were unknowns that some school had to take a chance on hiring.

jamalo said:
I'm just saying on someone like Fleck there needs to be a clear path to success (e.g., awesome recruiting of P5 players; an offense and/or defense that is so unique (e.g., Chip Kelly, who I don't personally like BTW) that it will take other P5 coaches years to adapt. Other than that go with a P5 coach who had prior success (e.g., Bobby Ross who we reportedly passed on)
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Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 



MNVCGUY said:
Well said, my take on your points from above.
1. Without having the numbers and all that it definitely feels like Claeys did a much better job building his scheme around the players he had to work with. The loss of Winfield was a massive blow to the D but that was a few weeks ago and they seem to still be really struggling to figure things out. The big plays are killing us and that is almost always the result of a mental mistake or a missed tackle on the field. Sure that can be pinned on the coaches as well but the two big runs Nebraska had early Saturday are prime examples of the players blowing their assignment and disaster happening because of it. Will be interesting to see if Fleck replaces Smith if things don't get better on that side of the ball over the remainder of the season.

2. D-Line has been a sore spot for a long long time now. Coughlin does a heck of a job for someone undersized and playing out of position but you probably have to go all the way back to the Mason years to find a time when we had a really strong defensive line. This was one of the positions the previous staff had a really hard time recruiting and very little success. Time will tell if the guys Fleck is bringing in can get the job done.

3. Speaking of positions where the recruiting has not been good, QB would definitely be on that list. Think it is too early to say one way or another on Annexstad or Morgan. Not sure either has a super high ceiling but both look like they could be upgrades over the past few years at least.

4. Think there is hope for O-Line becoming a strength again over the next few years.

5. Think it is a little early to make a determination on the young RB. Ibrahim's numbers as a freshman are better than what Rodney Smith was able to do in his freshman year. Obviously given the choice of a healthy Smith or Brooks right now I would go that route but I don't think the freshman have done that poorly.

Overall the defense has been disappointing and we all hate losing. The Purdue upset against Ohio State makes things look worse as people want to make the direct comparison between the state of the programs. Of course you could also look at us compared to say Illinois over a similar period or Rutgers or Maryland. It is easy to take one example of a team having some success in year 2 and use that to support the argument that our guy is failing when that is the case you want to make (by you I of course mean those that want to bash Fleck).

The next two games are huge for this season. Indiana and Illinois are both very beatable and it would be huge for the program to run off a few victories in a row to get some confidence going heading into the final stretch against Purdue, Northwestern and Wisconsin. 6 wins are still attainable for this season but these next two are key.
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This matches with my take.

It's hard to see PJ firing a guy mid-season. Goes against the culture he is promoting (keep rowing vs. Abandon ship)

After the season is done, I can see it happening. (Check the direction on the compass and adjust course)



Time will tell.

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Blitzkrieg said:
So to summarize you have concerns with the entire defense and offense with the exception of WR’s. And besides your potential issue with Fleck holding on to the D Coordinator too long, he’s doing a fine job otherwise. Hopefully I’ve summarized this half-accurately.

Would it be safe to assume then that Fleck is meeting your expectations and their play thus far has been to your satisfaction due to the challenges you’ve articulated.
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I think right now Fleck is still at a passing grade for all on the field areas, all things considered.
When I try to look at it optimistically, I can look to the O-line which was his number one area of weakness coming in which now appears will be a team strength as early as next year.

Defensive line was the other big concern. PJ's next class is heavy with D-line help as our previous class was deep on O-line so I have some faith that he's going to improve our weak areas through recruiting.

Many of Fleck's 2017 class are already contributing in positive ways and that was not a super high ranked class.
Some are playing due to injury like Morgan this weekend, who looked solid compared to Gopher QB's of the past.
The three freshman WR's we have might be the best trio of WR's we've seen in many years.

I think losing the two safeties from the 2017 class is really hurting right now.

Losing to Nebraska sucks and so does losing at Maryland.
Losing to Ohio State and Iowa I've been used to so that's not burning me up yet. It will if be when Fleck ends up 0-4 / 0-5 against each of those teams.

I think we're a middle to lower tier Big Ten team, but our record might show us at the bottom, but I hardly believe that's a reason to panic and not be optimistic about next year and the year after.
 

Face The Facts said:
I think right now Fleck is still at a passing grade for all on the field areas, all things considered.
When I try to look at it optimistically, I can look to the O-line which was his number one area of weakness coming in which now appears will be a team strength as early as next year.

Defensive line was the other big concern. PJ's next class is heavy with D-line help as our previous class was deep on O-line so I have some faith that he's going to improve our weak areas through recruiting.

Many of Fleck's 2017 class are already contributing in positive ways and that was not a super high ranked class.
Some are playing due to injury like Morgan this weekend, who looked solid compared to Gopher QB's of the past.
The three freshman WR's we have might be the best trio of WR's we've seen in many years.

I think losing the two safeties from the 2017 class is really hurting right now.

Losing to Nebraska sucks and so does losing at Maryland.
Losing to Ohio State and Iowa I've been used to so that's not burning me up yet. It will if be when Fleck ends up 0-4 / 0-5 against each of those teams.

I think we're a middle to lower tier Big Ten team, but our record might show us at the bottom, but I hardly believe that's a reason to panic and not be optimistic about next year and the year after.
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What teams do you classify as being "middle to lower tier Big Ten" teams with us?
 

OddStack said:
What teams do you classify as being "middle to lower tier Big Ten" teams with us?
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Here's a rough stab at it, and we might finish winless in the Big Ten, but that isn't going to make me think this team is ranked 129 out of 129 teams.

I think the team is probably in the 80's-90's now and after some weeks they look like they could be a top 30-40 team. Nothing about this team makes me think they are 100 or lower.


Upper
Michigan Wolverines
Ohio State Buckeyes
Penn State Nittany Lions
Wisconsin Badgers
Iowa Hawkeyes

Middle
Northwestern Wildcats
Purdue Boilermakers
Michigan State Spartans
Maryland Terrapins
Nebraska Cornhuskers

Lower
Indiana Hoosiers
Minnesota Golden Gophers
Illinois Fighting Illini
Rutgers Scarlet Knights
 

It looks like your reply is not "middle to lower" it's simply lower. I wanted to see who you thought we compared to in the middle b/c I think that's the majority of our remaining schedule which I can find one game we might be favored in (Illinois).

IMO....recruiting has been disappointing. (I view it per kid--I know, I know not popular--and we are outpacing 1 B1G program.) . I liked the '18 class and some of the '19 so far, but I was hoping for better results in '19 based on his "great recruiter" label and the new facilities. Maybe, my expectations were too high; that's "on me." The '19 class appears to have taken a step backward at this point IMO.
 
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OddStack said:
It looks like your reply is not "middle to lower" it's simply lower. I wanted to see who you thought we compared to in the middle b/c I think that's the majority of our remaining schedule which I can find one game we might be favored in (Illinois).
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Well, we've played three road games and home against an upper tier team. This will shake out after we play a few more teams. If we win 3 of 5, we're suddenly middle.

This is a great PANIC week though.
We played 3 road games and our toughest home game.

Beginning of the season you look at this schedule and many would have had us at 3-4 right now.
Panic if you want, but we're not terrible with a terrible future.
 

No panic. I had us at 4-6 wins on the year depending on if we beat Fresno and won1 or 2 of the toss-ups. (6 would be beating Fresno and beating 2 of Maryland, Purdue, NW, Nebraska, and Indiana; ...... Illinois win.) Right on schedule for my season outlook at 4-5.
 

I would rather have Brohm than Fleck for one game.

For a program like Minnesota or Purdue, I’d rather have Fleck.

Purdue already has 3 losses and I already predict this is Brohms last year at Purdue
 

Some guy said:
I would rather have Brohm than Fleck for one game.

For a program like Minnesota or Purdue, I’d rather have Fleck.

Purdue already has 3 losses and I already predict this is Brohms last year at Purdue
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If Brohm leaves Purdue on his own, he would owe the outstanding balance on the loan ($900,000 Purdue paid Western Kentucky - $150k is “forgiven” every December 31st) and would also owe the university liquidated damages depending on the date:


After Dec. 5, 2017 and before Dec. 5, 2018: $4 million

After Dec. 5, 2018 and before Dec. 5, 2019: $3 million

I’d personally be surprised if he’s gone after this year. It is CFB though.
 

If Fleck had won a bowl game in “Year 0” and was 3-1 with a path to win the West coming off an absolute demolition of #2 OSU, I think many might be thinking its Fleck’s last year.
 

The Gophers didn't even get a chance to hire Brohm. He left for Purdue on December 5th. Fleck was hired by the Gophers on Jan.6.
 

Got a lot of crap around these parts for talking about how I wanted Leach at one point...
 


tikited said:
I would have taken Leach in a heart beat. Still would...and I like Fleck.
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I like both still, but yeah I really wanted Mike, but with the PR situation I get why we might have been shy about it.
 

Buttcheeks McGaffigan said:
The Gophers didn't even get a chance to hire Brohm. He left for Purdue on December 5th. Fleck was hired by the Gophers on Jan.6.
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Coyle was always targeting Fleck, and he had to wait for Western Michigan to play in the Cotton Bowl. If Coyle really wanted Brohm, he could have made him an offer.
 

tikited said:
I would have taken Leach in a heart beat. Still would...and I like Fleck.
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i think many fans would, but with scandals at U, they were going to be risk adverse.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
Got a lot of crap around these parts for talking about how I wanted Leach at one point...
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I was on record back when Leach wasn't even interviewed, that I wanted him as the Gopher coach. It got messy after that because after being underwhelmed by the hiring of Kill, I quickly came around and saw him as a great hire. The health stuff then intervened and Leach kept plugging along. Just look at where Washington State was back when he was hired. They were historically bad and a complete joke within the Pac10/12. They seem really similar to the situation Texas Tech was back when Leach was there. Perhaps not seen as a conference elite but yet always seemingly on the verge of big things after collecting some very big wins.

Some have mentioned the coach comparisons are apples and oranges because Leach was a choice but Brohm was not. True, but I included him in the OP because as a coach brought in at the same time, within the same division, to lead a program that was SQUARELY BELOW the Gophers at the time is well worth comparisons with progress in rowing our boat. I don't think many would argue that the Purdue program has progressed faster, farther than the Gopher program since the winter of 2016/17. The story has not reached its end yet but as of this moment, it doesn't look like Purdue needed to go back to square 1 the way MN did, despite being a program in a deeper hole to start.
 

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