Lawsuit challenges Ivy League "no-scholarship" policy

Dave H

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In exactly the same way as, in my Biology postdoc who interviews at Cornell and Brown if both of those told the postdoc "we really like you and would love for you to join the department! Schools in the Ivy League have a set rate and benefits package for new assistant professors, which is the same at all eight schools and cannot be negotiated. That is our only and final offer, please let us know your decision as soon as possible".
You mean like actually happens cause those are union jobs? (I have one in the state system)

Is the union colluding and price fixing?
 

Off-GridTNgopher

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These kids and parents know full well what they are agreeing to. How is this even an issue... You got an ivy league education (if that's important to you) for free or at a discounted price... Want a free ride go elsewhere. Plenty other great schools to choose from that offer full athletic scholarships
 

PMWinSTP

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One of my nieces went to Harvard, and she was on the Rowing team there for a season or two - so technically she was an Ivy League student-Athlete. She has also worked in law offices, so I will have to get her take on this next time I see her. (She lives in Hollywood now, writing for sitcoms.)

FWIW - I have never had the guts to ask my sister how much it cost to send a kid from rural MN to Harvard.
 

hungan1

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I wonder what Matt Birk's take is on this lawsuit being a Harvard football player.
 

Gophers_4life

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You mean like actually happens cause those are union jobs? (I have one in the state system)

Is the union colluding and price fixing?
I don't believe anti-trust law supports outlawing organized labor for fixing the labor market.

But at the very base level, yes of course it's the same idea.
 


Gophers_4life

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I do think there is a chance that the way anti-trust law is written would enable a judge to rule that the Ivy League preventing athletic scholarships would be a violation.

I'm not really saying anything more than that.

That's how our law works. No law can specifically encode every possible scenario. So a judge has to rule, using the laws that exist, if a law is applicable to that situation or not.


Lot of people replying here, are just espousing how they want the world of college athletics to work. That is just fine, and I don't necessarily disagree.


If you feel that strongly, then you need to contact your representatives and tell them that new law is needed.

Being serious.
 

Some guy

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I do think there is a chance that the way anti-trust law is written would enable a judge to rule that the Ivy League preventing athletic scholarships would be a violation.

I'm not really saying anything more than that.

That's how our law works. No law can specifically encode every possible scenario. So a judge has to rule, using the laws that exist, if a law is applicable to that situation or not.


Lot of people replying here, are just espousing how they want the world of college athletics to work. That is just fine, and I don't necessarily disagree.


If you feel that strongly, then you need to contact your representatives and tell them that new law is needed.

Being serious.
Yeah. I have no idea how this is going to go. But if it goes the way of no limits to scholarships….legislation would be required to preserve any kind of system
 

Dave H

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I don't believe anti-trust law supports outlawing organized labor for fixing the labor market.

But at the very base level, yes of course it's the same idea.

You really need to stop. Your take is awful and everyone seems to get it but you.
 




Ope3

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Just imagine what Princeton basketball could accomplish if the Ivys are forced to give out scholarships?!? They are good now as it is!
 

Gophers_4life

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Just imagine what Princeton basketball could accomplish if the Ivys are forced to give out scholarships?!? They are good now as it is!
Not sure if this post was tongue-in-cheek, thinking it was.

They'd still very largely recruit the same kinds of students. They have very strict admissions, and while they certainly have quotas about how many athletes they can get into the school who have numbers (test scores, gpa, etc.) significantly below the student body, they can't just get anybody in.

You definitely could get in as an athlete whereas you would not have gotten in without that, for sure, but you're still going to be very high school relative to the nation.



These guys just wanted the Ivy's to have to compete with each other and offer (more) athletic aid to players that multiple schools were going after.
 
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A_Slab_of_Bacon

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I wonder what Matt Birk's take is on this lawsuit being a Harvard football player.
Probably something stupid ...

Matt is a weird dude. Lotta talk surrounding him was about how smart he was, Harvard, and so on. I'm going to assume he is a smart guy, but he was also had a weird vibe of "contrarian for contrarian's sake". I don't really mind contrarian folks, they can make interesting points at the very least even when wrong, but with Matt never felt like there was anything there behind it...

Dude for whatever reason kept getting standard NFL "smart guy" praise endlessly and I was always curious how, it didn't seem to be there.
 

Ope3

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Not sure if this post was tongue-in-cheek, thinking it was.

They'd still very largely recruit the same kinds of students. They have very strict admissions, and while they certainly have quotas about how many athletes they can get into the school who have numbers (test scores, gpa, etc.) significantly below the student body, they can't just get anybody in.

You definitely could get in as an athlete whereas you would not have gotten in with that, for sure, but you're still going to be very high school relative to the nation.



These guys just wanted the Ivy's to have to compete with each other and offer (more) athletic aid to players that multiple schools were going after.
Yes, it was facetious.

On a serious note, I think if the Ivys did offer full free rides, it would hurt the Patriot League in some small measure, who only themselves have been offering them since around 2000, so they have had a slight advantage in that aspect. Pretty comparable in terms of the education, only slightly less prestige.

However, it's not as though the Patriot League has been dominating athletically as it is.
 



Gophers_4life

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Yep.

Now, you're a star three-sport athlete at Duluth East in football, basketball, and track, and you do very well in the classroom. You're not elite in sports, the Gophers aren't recruiting you, but you are getting some interest from Dakota schools. Ivy's basketball teams are also interested, because you do good enough in academics.

So what they want, is to make Cornell and Brown have to compete against each other with (partial) scholarship offers. Is really the thing.
 

FredCoxRocks

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Probably something stupid ...

Matt is a weird dude. Lotta talk surrounding him was about how smart he was, Harvard, and so on. I'm going to assume he is a smart guy, but he was also had a weird vibe of "contrarian for contrarian's sake". I don't really mind contrarian folks, they can make interesting points at the very least even when wrong, but with Matt never felt like there was anything there behind it...

Dude for whatever reason kept getting standard NFL "smart guy" praise endlessly and I was always curious how, it didn't seem to be there.
He said some weird, cringe-worthy things on the campaign trail that made me think the same thing.
 

Gophergrandpa

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This is a really interesting discussion. A small point of clarification: the lawsuit does not seek to "force" Ivy League schools to give out full ride scholarships based solely on athletic prowess. There is no way such a result--courts' forcing academic institutions to confer full-ride, athletics-based scholarships they don't want to give--could be accomplished under current law. Athletes are not a "protected class" under our laws.

The lawsuit, instead, seeks only to judicially dissolve the "conspiracy" pursuant to which all Ivies have agreed to grant scholarship aid--whether given to pure students, to student/athletes, to legacies, to whomever--based solely on family financial need. All Ivies have agreed ("conspired") that they will not offer pure "athletic" scholarships of any kind. This "conspiracy," the lawsuit argues, is an illegal "restraint" on free "trade and commerce"--arguably within the realm of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

If the lawsuit succeeds, the most the court could do, as a "remedy," would be to bust up the "conspiracy"--to prohibit the mutual, league-wide "restraint" on pure "athletic" scholarships. That wouldn't "force" Harvard or Yale or Princeton to begin giving out full-ride "athletic" scholarships. It would just mean that individual Ivies could no longer rely on their competitors (the other Ivies) being "restrained" from giving out athletic scholarships. Competition would, at least nominally, be restored. But even if the "conspiracy" were busted up, and competition for athletes nominally restored, I don't believe that the Ivies would begin giving out full-ride athletic "athletic" scholarships to students whose families could afford to pay some or all of the freight. It would be spectacularly "off brand."

Maybe a few Ivies, here and there, would use their new-found freedom from conspiratorial "restraint" to offer an occasional pure, full-ride "athletic" scholarship to a remarkable candidate from a well-heeled family. And perhaps the change might result in a new Ivy League athletic super-power: one that decides to go all in on pure athletic scholarships (while the rest of Ivies, by individual decision, continues to offer only "needs-based" scholarships).

My take: even if our courts decide to destroy the Ivy League "conspiracy" to restrain "trade and commerce" by offering only "need-based" scholarships, I don't think things will change much. Ivy League admission standards aren't going to change. And, more to the point, the Ivy League's "world view" isn't going to change: inter-collegiate athletics (and the tiny, related revenue streams) simply aren't important enough to the Ivies for them to begin throwing superfluous money at athletes whose families can afford to pay some (or all) of college costs. That would be counter to the core ethic of the Ivy League.

If an Ivy or two should decide to go all in, offering free-ride athletic scholarships to kids whose families can easily afford to pay some or all of tuition/room/board, I believe those few Ivies would immediately be identified as the "inferior" Ivies: the ones whose academic brands and reputations aren't strong enough to attract student/athletes using only a need-based scholarship approach. I suspect that the possible cost to an Ivy League school in terms of forfeited prestige--and perhaps lost alumni contributions?--would deter virtually every Ivy from rushing to self-identifying itself as an "inferior" Ivy. So, the Ivy League's need-based-only scholarship regime would probably endure as a matter of individual school choice (rather by virtue of an express "conspiracy"). Ivy League schools have way too much too lose in terms of lost prestige (and very little to gain) by jumping into the full-ride athletic scholarship auction/circus.
 
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FireDaveLee

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If an Ivy or two should decide to go all in, offering free-ride athletic scholarships to kids whose families can easily afford to pay some or all of tuition/room/board, I believe those few Ivies would immediately be identified as the "inferior" Ivies: the ones whose academic brands and reputations aren't strong enough to attract student/athletes using only a need-based scholarship approach. I suspect that the possible cost to an Ivy League school in terms of forfeited prestige--and perhaps lost alumni contributions?--would deter virtually every Ivy from rushing to self-identifying itself as an "inferior" Ivy. So, the Ivy League's need-based-only scholarship regime would probably endure as a matter of individual school choice (rather by virtue of an express "conspiracy"). Ivy League schools have way too much too lose in terms of lost prestige (and very little to gain) by jumping into the full-ride athletic scholarship auction/circus.

So....perhaps a good move for Brown? Jon Moxon would become their T. Boone Pickins....

 





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