KU Blue and White scrimmage.

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balds

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Was visiting family in KS last week and went down to Lawrence to watch the scrimmage, which was a make up event for fans because they had to turn away thousands at their original late night at the Phog event. It was also coincidentally timed for the Jones /Okafer visit. Here are a few observations:

Amazing atmosphere and fans, 10,000+ loud cheering and chanting.

Andrew Wiggins is very athletic and talented, but I don't see him dominating early. He is not a "type A" personality who plays with urgency or aggression. That being said he quietly lead all scorers with 21 and is very fluid and athletic, although not being a quick twitch type guy.

Kansas is loaded and young. Guard Frank Mason and Center Joel Embled are studs, and Connor Fraenkamp will be a great player who will be a lethal weapon from outside. Along with Wayne Seldon, this group could be special if they stick together. With Mason, a Senior Tharpe and Fraenkamp, playing time for Tyus might not be a given. Also Perry Ellis looks like a different player than last year, dominating inside. With Self's coaching ability, they should be a major contender come March.

Bill Self was largely hands off, but a few examples of his intensity emerged. He blew the whistle before the opening tap and took about 30 seconds to correctly line people up (moved one guy about 6 inches). Also, the team practiced before they entered the arena and looked physically whipped, dripping with sweat.

Jones was siting down with no fanfare, when about 1/2 way through Okafer walked into the gym to a loud 30-40 second standing ovation. He sat down next to Tyus. After the applause died down one fan yelled out "we love you too Tyus".
 


Thanks for the report. Will be at The Phog for the Jayhawks' Nov. 8 season opener, a bucket-list event for me. Looking forward to seeing Wiggins, and experiencing a KU home game 1st hand.

Sadly, I think KU is where Jones and Okafor are headed. If not the Gophers for Tyus, better KU than Duke, though.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Sadly, I think KU is where Jones and Okafor are headed. If not the Gophers for Tyus, better KU than Duke, though.
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Not really, in my book. Kansas is becoming equally if not more annoying. 1) Poaching Cole Aldrich, our top big man in years, out of Minnesota. 2) Stealing a national championship that Memphis had won, and thereby depriving me of winning my NCAA pool. 3) Bill Self. Pompous airbag who, by all accounts, also is a dirty old man. 4) Big 12. Inferior conference whose fans don't understand their place in the national pecking order. Will be glad when it disappears. 5) Poaching Tyus would take the cake.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Thanks for the report. Will be at The Phog for the Jayhawks' Nov. 8 season opener, a bucket-list event for me. Looking forward to seeing Wiggins, and experiencing a KU home game 1st hand.

Sadly, I think KU is where Jones and Okafor are headed. If not the Gophers for Tyus, better KU than Duke, though.
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I rather they went to Duke, if Duke nabs Okafor and Looney that can only help us with Travis. Them going to Kansas does nothing to help the gophers
 


Selection,

I would highly recommend a place called Free State Brewery on Mass. Ave. Great beer and good food, and seemingly the place to be. I've been there before, but couldn't get in this past saturday at 11:00 because it was filled with KU/Oklahoma fans. Might need to get there a bit early. I'd go with the Cloud Hopper, but be careful, it's 9.3%
 

balds said:
Was visiting family in KS last week and went down to Lawrence to watch the scrimmage, which was a make up event for fans because they had to turn away thousands at their original late night at the Phog event. It was also coincidentally timed for the Jones /Okafer visit. Here are a few observations:

Amazing atmosphere and fans, 10,000+ loud cheering and chanting.

Andrew Wiggins is very athletic and talented, but I don't see him dominating early. He is not a "type A" personality who plays with urgency or aggression. That being said he quietly lead all scorers with 21 and is very fluid and athletic, although not being a quick twitch type guy.

Kansas is loaded and young. Guard Frank Mason and Center Joel Embled are studs, and Connor Fraenkamp will be a great player who will be a lethal weapon from outside. Along with Wayne Seldon, this group could be special if they stick together. With Mason, a Senior Tharpe and Fraenkamp, playing time for Tyus might not be a given. Also Perry Ellis looks like a different player than last year, dominating inside. With Self's coaching ability, they should be a major contender come March.

Bill Self was largely hands off, but a few examples of his intensity emerged. He blew the whistle before the opening tap and took about 30 seconds to correctly line people up (moved one guy about 6 inches). Also, the team practiced before they entered the arena and looked physically whipped, dripping with sweat.

Jones was siting down with no fanfare, when about 1/2 way through Okafer walked into the gym to a loud 30-40 second standing ovation. He sat down next to Tyus. After the applause died down one fan yelled out "we love you too Tyus".
Click to expand...

Laughed a little at the bold part, but good post otherwise.
 

balds said:
Selection,

I would highly recommend a place called Free State Brewery on Mass. Ave. Great beer and good food, and seemingly the place to be. I've been there before, but couldn't get in this past saturday at 11:00 because it was filled with KU/Oklahoma fans. Might need to get there a bit early. I'd go with the Cloud Hopper, but be careful, it's 9.3%
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, Balds. Appreciate it.
 

WanderingGopher said:
Not really, in my book. Kansas is becoming equally if not more annoying. 1) Poaching Cole Aldrich, our top big man in years, out of Minnesota. 2) Stealing a national championship that Memphis had won, and thereby depriving me of winning my NCAA pool. 3) Bill Self. Pompous airbag who, by all accounts, also is a dirty old man. 4) Big 12. Inferior conference whose fans don't understand their place in the national pecking order. Will be glad when it disappears. 5) Poaching Tyus would take the cake.
Click to expand...

!!!! That happened to you too??!? I have nightmares of Mario Chalmers hitting the game tying three pointer.
 




WanderingGopher said:
Not really, in my book. Kansas is becoming equally if not more annoying. 1) Poaching Cole Aldrich, our top big man in years, out of Minnesota. 2) Stealing a national championship that Memphis had won, and thereby depriving me of winning my NCAA pool. 3) Bill Self. Pompous airbag who, by all accounts, also is a dirty old man. 4) Big 12. Inferior conference whose fans don't understand their place in the national pecking order. Will be glad when it disappears. 5) Poaching Tyus would take the cake.
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You blame Kansas for Memphis's inability to hit a few free-throws? Seems a little misplaced.
 


It's a Pig Man! said:
You blame Kansas for Memphis's inability to hit a few free-throws? Seems a little misplaced.
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Free throws are the worst part about basketball. In no other sport are you awarded for fouling. Let the victim choose to decline the penalty and just inbound the ball. Free throws and timeouts need some serious reductions.
 




AO54 said:
Free throws are the worst part about basketball. In no other sport are you awarded for fouling. Let the victim choose to decline the penalty and just inbound the ball. Free throws and timeouts need some serious reductions.
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That completely changes the game. I ran through several scenarios in my head to try and relate to what you said, but I just don't get the rationale.
 

AO54 said:
Free throws are the worst part about basketball. In no other sport are you awarded for fouling. Let the victim choose to decline the penalty and just inbound the ball. Free throws and timeouts need some serious reductions.
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They're called free throws because you should make them
 

dpodoll68 said:
How are you awarded for fouling?
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If you foul a poor free throw shooter (like Dwight Howard) and he misses both (decent chance) and you get the rebound (good chance) you've essentially gotten a stop by fouling, a reward, if you will, obtained by fouling.

Sure it is on the offense to make their free throws, but I think his argument is, why can't the offense decline those free throws if they are terrible at them? Rule changes the NBA is considering after a season full of hack-a-Howard.

It would be like if in the NFL on any pass interference penalty the offense got to kick a 30 yard field goal. Well if you have an awful kicker, you aren't going to like that. And defenses can just hack your receivers the whole game and are essentially "rewarded" with the ball for it.
 


That's not an award, that's playing the percentages based on a risk-reward analysis. How are you being "awarded" if you are giving the other team a potential two free points while also giving their players a minute or two of rest? If the leading team doesn't like it, then they need to get their poor free-throw shooter off the floor.

Getting rid of free throws (or allowing the offense the option to decline them) is a terrible, terrible idea and would render fouls virtually moot, as there would be no disincentive from emptying your benches to beat the hell out of the other team's best player(s). It would fundamentally alter the game, and make it far worse.
 

dpodoll68 said:
That's not an award, that's playing the percentages based on a risk-reward analysis. How are you being "awarded" if you are giving the other team a potential two free points while also giving their players a minute or two of rest? If the leading team doesn't like it, then they need to get their poor free-throw shooter off the floor.

Getting rid of free throws (or allowing the offense the option to decline them) is a terrible, terrible idea and would render fouls virtually moot, as there would be no disincentive from emptying your benches to beat the hell out of the other team's best player(s). It would fundamentally alter the game, and make it far worse.
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I would think beating the hell out of another team's player might warrant a technical foul.

Football isn't the only sport that gets fouling right.
Soccer and Hockey let you keep playing if you have the advantage after a foul. You get touched at half court on a fast break, but would easily have went in for the dunk if the ref didn't blow the play dead.
 

AO54 said:
I would think beating the hell out of another team's player might warrant a technical foul.
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Duh. And without free throws, what would be the penalty? Didn't think that one through, did you?
 

dpodoll68 said:
That's not an award, that's playing the percentages based on a risk-reward analysis. How are you being "awarded" if you are giving the other team a potential two free points while also giving their players a minute or two of rest? If the leading team doesn't like it, then they need to get their poor free-throw shooter off the floor.

Getting rid of free throws (or allowing the offense the option to decline them) is a terrible, terrible idea and would render fouls virtually moot, as there would be no disincentive from emptying your benches to beat the hell out of the other team's best player(s). It would fundamentally alter the game, and make it far worse.
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+1. I'm surprised people are challenging your stance over AO54's. I couldn't agree more that it's about playing the %'s based on risk and reward and that an option to decline attempting free throws would fundamentally change the game for the worse. Or as you suggested, they need to take their poor free throw shooter off the court.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Duh. And without free throws, what would be the penalty? Didn't think that one through, did you?
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um....I'd take the free throws and the ball. It's a technical foul. You'd still count all fouls, technical or not, against the offending player's limit even if the free throws were declined.
 

dpodoll68 said:
That's not an award, that's playing the percentages based on a risk-reward analysis. How are you being "awarded" if you are giving the other team a potential two free points while also giving their players a minute or two of rest? If the leading team doesn't like it, then they need to get their poor free-throw shooter off the floor. Getting rid of free throws (or allowing the offense the option to decline them) is a terrible, terrible idea and would render fouls virtually moot, as there would be no disincentive from emptying your benches to beat the hell out of the other team's best player(s). It would fundamentally alter the game, and make it far worse.
Click to expand...

What is there to stop guys from hurting the other players now though?

Nazr Muhammed shoved LeBron to the ground (with maybe a little flop) and got ejected, Heat got two free throws and the ball.

I lean more towards keeping free throws, but those two free throws aren't stopping anyone from intentionally hurting the other team if they really wanted to. I can't imagine Rick Adleman yelling at his bench that he'd have a guy karate kick LeBron's knee if it weren't for those dang free throws they'd get.
 

AO54 said:
um....I'd take the free throws and the ball. It's a technical foul. You'd still count all fouls, technical or not, against the offending player's limit even if the free throws were declined.
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OK. In this hypothetical scenario of yours, the leading team keeps declining the free throws in order to keep the clock moving (as I can't imagine any other reason why anyone would want to turn down free points). So the trailing team empties their bench over the last 60 seconds (or whatever) and orders their players to foul immediately in order to stop the clock. Play is stopped literally once per second of game time until the trailing team has exhausted all of its surplus fouls.

And you find the above scenario to be preferable to watching teams shoot some free throws?
 

scher215 said:
What is there to stop guys from hurting the other players now though?

Nazr Muhammed shoved LeBron to the ground (with maybe a little flop) and got ejected, Heat got two free throws and the ball.

I lean more towards keeping free throws, but those two free throws aren't stopping anyone from intentionally hurting the other team if they really wanted to. I can't imagine Rick Adleman yelling at his bench that he'd have a guy karate kick LeBron's knee if it weren't for those dang free throws they'd get.
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I'm not talking about hurting someone, I'm talking about a team burning all of its surplus fouls on the other team's LeBron and D-Wade because there's no incentive not to. Why would a team not use the 30 fouls on the end of its bench to hack LeBron every time he goes to the basket if they know he can't shoot those 60 free throws?
 

dpodoll68 said:
I'm not talking about hurting someone, I'm talking about a team burning all of its surplus fouls on the other team's LeBron and D-Wade because there's no incentive not to. Why would a team not use the 30 fouls on the end of its bench to hack LeBron every time he goes to the basket if they know he can't shoot those 60 free throws?
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He could shoot the free throws as is the case now. You could try to foul 30 times in a row, but you run the risk of getting called for intentional fouls or technical fouls, giving LeBron free throws and the ball back. Lebron won't have lost anything if you manage to foul 30 times without getting called for a technical, but now you're out of fouls and players if you manage to get to overtime. Meanwhile, the clock has restarted every time Lebron gets the ball before he's fouled. You haven't stopped the clock before your next possession as you are able to do today.
 

stocker08 said:
!!!! That happened to you too??!? I have nightmares of Mario Chalmers hitting the game tying three pointer.
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Yep, a very large pool too. I have no particular attachment to Memphis or especially to Calipari, but that loss ranks right up there will all the Vikings and Gopher "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory" memories for me.

The discussion about FT's is interesting. Back in the day when you had all 1-and-1 for non-shooting fouls, the amount of pressure was magnified and so many games were lost by the pressure-induced miss of the front end. Watch the ESPN documentary on Valvano and NC State's run. So many games pulled out because the other team missed front ends of 1-and-1's. That, and the fact there was no shot clock, made fouling even more attractive to the team that was behind. Then the NCAA tilted the field a little bit by giving 2 shots on the 10th foul. BUT with the 3 point shot, of course, you're still going to be inclined to foul, foul, foul. I don't know what the answer is, but it sucks to lose a game you had won simply because your worst FT shooters missed some FT's on what were basically intentional fouls at the end of the game.

On the other hand, everyone knows that's how it is, so spend time practicing your free throws, especially when you're tired.
 

AO54 said:
Free throws are the worst part about basketball. In no other sport are you awarded for fouling. Let the victim choose to decline the penalty and just inbound the ball. Free throws and timeouts need some serious reductions.
Click to expand...

I think AO54 was talking about the "intentional fouls" and I agree.

Definition of Intentional Foul: to foul an opposing player on purpose to prevent him/her from scoring.

The definition of "intentional foul" changes in the final minutes of a game and it's ridiculous. You can literally grab an opposing player and bear hug him as soon as the ball is inbounded and it's not considered intentional?

Any foul under 1 minute in a game that is > 2 possessions should be 2 shots and the ball - or at the very minimum the option to shoot 2 OR the ball.
 


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