Kill/Mason Comparison

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discochris said:
Apples and oranges at this point.
), or played down to the level of poor opponents (NDSU, Indiana).

Wow, nice revisionist history. Brewster lost to NDSU and so did Kill. Glen Mason, at least beat NDSU and saved us the embarrassment in this case. In almost all cases Mason's teams beat the tar out of D1A teams and most the other NC teams they played.

In the same year Mason's team beat NDSU, they also beat Indiana 63-26, in the 3 game win streak to end the season over Mich St, Indiana and Iowa.

Mason was 5-3 vs Indiana often crushed Indiana, so I guess the the facts were overlooked just a little in the original post.

2006 MN 63 indiana 26 (with garbage time TDs at end of game for IU so much for playing 13 Terry H)
2005 MN 42 Indiana 21
2003 MN 55 Indiana 7
1999 MN 40 Indiana 20
1997 MN 24 Indiana 12
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Let me honest here. The Indiana team today is much tougher than anything Mason or Brew ever faced.
 

My 2014 resolution is to not contribute to any more Kill/Mason threads. Haven't we been down this road enough?

Who is going to join me?
 

When Glen Mason was the head coach at the university, ever picture in the football complex featured him in it somewhere. He definitely has a big ego, and the MN high school coaches love Kill/Brew compared to Mason.
 

oak_street1981 said:
discochris said:
Apples and oranges at this point.
), or played down to the level of poor opponents (NDSU, Indiana).

Wow, nice revisionist history. Brewster lost to NDSU and so did Kill. Glen Mason, at least beat NDSU and saved us the embarrassment in this case. In almost all cases Mason's teams beat the tar out of D1A teams and most the other NC teams they played.

In the same year Mason's team beat NDSU, they also beat Indiana 63-26, in the 3 game win streak to end the season over Mich St, Indiana and Iowa.

Mason was 5-3 vs Indiana often crushed Indiana, so I guess the the facts were overlooked just a little in the original post.

2006 MN 63 indiana 26 (with garbage time TDs at end of game for IU so much for playing 13 Terry H)
2005 MN 42 Indiana 21
2003 MN 55 Indiana 7
1999 MN 40 Indiana 20
1997 MN 24 Indiana 12
Click to expand...

Did Mason really beat NDSU or did they just royally **** up on the game winning field goal attempt? Also while embarrassing losses, I honestly believe where our program was in 2011 NDSU had a better team.
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I guess a "Mason vs. Kill" is a small set-up from the "Mason vs. Brewster", or "Brewster/Kill" threads that have plagued this site for years. It's still a waste unless Kill is heading elsewhere.

He's not is he?
 

"It's refreshing to get some of the guys on that talk in a normal adult voice."

There's hope yet. Thanks for the uplift.
dwl
 

discochris said:
Still whining about people criticizing the players wren? This is big time BCS football. It's a massive billion dollar entertainment enterprise in this country, and if the players don't perform, they deserve to be criticized.

Perhaps you'd be better off following a D3 program.
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Perhaps those of you who think college football isn't about college ought to follow the NFL. But if you're right and BCS football is nothing more than another pro program, then you're right that some of us would be better off following a lower level. I already enjoy D2 ball where most players stay with their programs and graduate. Games are spirited and are about football, not money. I like it. Call me a relic.
 

bigticket1 said:
That last four game stretch will be challenging but the first four conference games ( @ Michigan and Illinois and home with Purdue and Northwestern ) offer a good opportunity to start the conference with at least 3 wins. Personally , a conference win is a conference win regardless if it happens in late September or November. A 5-3 record is doable and would be a step forward. Winning at least one of those late rivalry games would be really nice.
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We will just have to keep track of the conference wins and the conference losses in 2014 and then we can see how the Mason vs. Kill comparison is coming. I certainly hope the Gophers can go 5-3 in conference play...but...they are going to have to actually win the games before I will believe that they are actual wins for the purpose of determining if Mason was better or if Kill is better. And, when the 2014 season has been played we will have four year figures to compare Mason to Kill with. That will be even more meaningful than the 3 year figures were! This is getting pretty damn interesting, isn't it bigticket1?
 



kittysparrow: how long have you been watching Gopher and Big Ten Football? Back in the Mason days, the Big Ten Conference was pretty damn well respected compared to the way it has been viewed during the past few seasons. Today, every other section of the country considers the Big Ten (B1G) to pretty much suck compared to several of the other power conferences. That wasn't the case when tOSU, Michigan, PSU, Purdue, iowa, wisky were considered pretty tough and even our Gophers and Northwestern and sometimes Illinois were making some noise.

Seriously, how long have you been watching Big Ten Football?
 

FanSinceTheFifties said:
Perhaps those of you who think college football isn't about college ought to follow the NFL. But if you're right and BCS football is nothing more than another pro program, then you're right that some of us would be better off following a lower level. I already enjoy D2 ball where most players stay with their programs and graduate. Games are spirited and are about football, not money. I like it. Call me a relic.
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Ok. You're a relic.
ESPN paid $1.332 BILLION dollars for college football television rights this season.
They will pay $87 Million per game for the championship series next season.

This is a major entertainment business. The players that sign on the line to play need to accept that criticism is going to come with that, as it should.
 

In year 3 of mason the gophers were an overtime loss to Wisconsin away from a 4 way tie for 1st place in a season in which 7 of the 11 teams in the conference finished ranked in one of the polls and Ohio state being the 8th place team.

In year 3 of kill the gophers were 13 points away from beating a Wisconsin team that would have moved them into a 4 way tie for 3rd in the conference and a 3 way tie for 2nd in the division in a season where 3 out of 12 schools will finish the season ranked in the top 25 and the 8th place team is a Michigan team that beat us by 29 points.
 

The 99 gophers also avoided Orange bowl champ Michigan and a 10 win Sparty team coached by Nick Saban, this years squad got the benefit of the doubt of not facing the two worst teams in the league
 



Simply put the program was at rock bottom before Kill was here. For Mason it wasn't quite that bad at all...
 

I really hate these comparisons. I was a pretty solid Mason guy until he pulled what I consider a bunch of crap during his last contract negotiation. After that, I really lost it on him. Fickle, I know.

In fairness to Mason, the game changed a lot during his tenure at Minnesota. Not so much on the field, where he always did a pretty good job, but off the field in the public relations sense. I just thought he blew off a lot of stuff that became to be expected. Tough loss and he wouldn't want to go on The Neighbor and babble with Sid the next morning (truth be told, I don't blame him, but it was expected).

Add to that what I perceived to be a ton of friction between him and Maturi (especially after the contract negotiations) and there was a recipe for disaster. I'm not going to blame either of these guys. I think the mission handed to Maturi from the administration was pretty clear in the wake of the Haskins/Boston business and that put he and Mason on a collision course.

I don't want this to come off like I'm a Mason apologist. He had his run and did wellm, but it was time for him to move on. I think the system is in place for Kill to be as or more successful and Kill doesn't shirk the PR aspects of the deal.
 

Mason would be getting ripped and so would kill if it wasnt year 3 of the rebuild. I would say that Kill has not gotten enough flack for our bowl loss but I am not sure fans know exactly what they should say about Coach Kill. The team had an 8 win season which is great but the 4 biggest wins came with Jerry Kill having little to no influence on the team. It was a rough year for Jerry Kill health wise and I think most people feel that they can't say anything bad about the guy. I could be wrong maybe the fans do not care about the health concerns when it comes to his coaching but the Gophers season though it was great with 8 wins but the play calling during the 4 Big Ten wins was very different compared to the rest of the season and especially in the bowl game. Gophers have improved each year so far but can they take another big step next year or do they start to level off?

Lets also remember Glen Mason's personality and attitude didnt do him any favors. Jerry Kill is a pretty likeable guy. In the end how different their success at Minnesota will be determined how they improve the talent level. Mason got to a level he was unable to climb past. Kill's recruiting has been similar the question is can he climb past what he is doing now and get more players that can elevate the program to a team that can compete every couple of years for a Division title or Big Ten title.
 

WolfontheProwl said:
the 4 biggest wins came with Jerry Kill having little to no influence on the team
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Do you have pictures from inside the meeting rooms during the week, or from inside the press box on game days? Given the above statement, I have to assume you were intimately involved in the game planning and execution on game day. Are you a coach posting here in secret, or were you just given some sort of special access during the winning streak?
 


That tough Indiana team that did not sniff a Bowl this year (4-8?) when the Big10 could not even fill the Pizza Bowl slot in Detroit? Hoepner and Dinardo had that program on more solid footing than it is now. Those clowns never should have fired the guy who had them at a solid level before they brought in Cam Cameron. (Bill Mallory) Kevin Wilson is the current version of Cam Cameron.
In the same year Mason's team beat NDSU, they also beat Indiana 63-26, in the 3 game win streak to end the season over Mich St, Indiana and Iowa.

Mason was 5-3 vs Indiana often crushed Indiana, so I guess the the facts were overlooked just a little in the original post.

2006 MN 63 indiana 26 (with garbage time TDs at end of game for IU so much for playing 13 Terry H)
2005 MN 42 Indiana 21
2003 MN 55 Indiana 7
1999 MN 40 Indiana 20
1997 MN 24 Indiana 12[/QUOTE]
 

goldenman said:
When Glen Mason was the head coach at the university, ever picture in the football complex featured him in it somewhere. He definitely has a big ego, and the MN high school coaches love Kill/Brew compared to Mason.
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Who gives a rats ass about what the Minnesota HS coaches think? There is not a lot of high end talent here anyway and most of the blue collar players will go to MN regardless of what happens.

Minnesota can just write off the "elite" Cretin players anyway since none of them ever consider the U anyway. Mason probably had the right model anyway, bring in the 3rd tier Ohio and FL players, and hope they are good. MN talent is over-rated and the HS coaches whine too much. Mason was right to put them in their place.

Kill has Mason beat on one level, he has a coaching staff that can spot rough defensive diamonds and sign them, and his coaches can develop players on the D side. He also does not move any player with O/D two way potential to the offensive side quickly. (Speath)
 

My last post did not give enough credit to Jerry Kill relative to Mason.

Regardless of his motivation, biases, and limitations, it was very obvious that Mason's blind spot was attention the the defensive side of the ball. Oddly enough, as a linebacker on Woody Hayes OSU teams, Mason would be known as a offensive side of the ball coach.

Jerry Kill staff is very different in the way they approach defense relative to the Mason era. Kill values defense and is committed to having a tough defense; Mason just tried to work around not having much of a defense. Kill is actually more of a Woody Hayes throwback than Mason, who spent several years around Hayes.

Kills staff re: Defense:

-Brings in players with average or better than average speed
-finds raw, coachable players with a big upside
+Kill does not move strong D players to Offense on a regular basis
-finds smart players that will last for 4 or 5 years who also improve and work hard
-finds players who have the physical potential to grow into crucial roles (undersized fast D lineman who can gain weight but remain fast, undersized, fast, long CB like Wells who can cover and gain weight to grow into position)

Kill finds under-recruited defensive players with a high ceiling, Mason (Gutey, Wacker) found barely competent, solid players with a low, and nearly reached ceiling who performed against low talent but fell short more often than not when the bar was raised. Depth was a huge problem after the first player (barely serviceable in some cases) went down.

Safety, Linebacker, and CB talent and skill level shortcomings under Mason relative to the recent Kill teams are
very obvious. The DL is deeper as well, but Mason usually had a few players on the DL.
 

It's funny that you say that because the relationship between the head coach of the University of Minnesota and the MN high school coaches actually means a lot. Different college head coaches call these high school coaches and talk to them first before moving onto the recruit. Some high school head coaches even take the initiative to do the recruiting for the player.

I remember countless times hearing from the big name high school coaches here in MN that their relationship with Mason was not a good one as he didn't really care about the talent here in MN. Proceeding now to the present, these coaches now love Kill and appreciated Brew for their willingness/interest to scout in-home talent here in MN.

But yeah, who gives a rats ass about what these high school coaches think...
 

goldenman said:
Simply put the program was at rock bottom before Kill was here. For Mason it wasn't quite that bad at all...
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Jeezo Beezo what a moronic statement. Wacker had even more pathetic defenses than Brewster. I disagree with your statement vehemently. Kill had a Mason like year this year. The only question is whether Kill can do better. The jury is still out.
 

goldenman said:
It's funny that you say that because the relationship between the head coach of the University of Minnesota and the MN high school coaches actually means a lot. Different college head coaches call these high school coaches and talk to them first before moving onto the recruit. Some high school head coaches even take the initiative to do the recruiting for the player.
Click to expand...

This is true. I played over 20 years ago, and I remember a team meeting at the end of the season where the coaches specifically asked us whether or not any of us were interested in playing college ball, and that they would help us if we wanted it. We had a handful of players go on to play in college - mostly D2 and D3, but we had one play for the U. I was too small to play OL at any school I could afford (maybe could have played at some expensive tiny D3 school like Macalaster), and I just wasn't interested anyway, but I remember the offer.
 

oak_street1981 said:
My last post did not give enough credit to Jerry Kill relative to Mason.

Regardless of his motivation, biases, and limitations, it was very obvious that Mason's blind spot was attention the the defensive side of the ball. Oddly enough, as a linebacker on Woody Hayes OSU teams, Mason would be known as a offensive side of the ball coach.

Jerry Kill staff is very different in the way they approach defense relative to the Mason era. Kill values defense and is committed to having a tough defense; Mason just tried to work around not having much of a defense. Kill is actually more of a Woody Hayes throwback than Mason, who spent several years around Hayes.

Kills staff re: Defense:

-Brings in players with average or better than average speed
-finds raw, coachable players with a big upside
+Kill does not move strong D players to Offense on a regular basis
-finds smart players that will last for 4 or 5 years who also improve and work hard
-finds players who have the physical potential to grow into crucial roles (undersized fast D lineman who can gain weight but remain fast, undersized, fast, long CB like Wells who can cover and gain weight to grow into position)

Kill finds under-recruited defensive players with a high ceiling, Mason (Gutey, Wacker) found barely competent, solid players with a low, and nearly reached ceiling who performed against low talent but fell short more often than not when the bar was raised. Depth was a huge problem after the first player (barely serviceable in some cases) went down.

Safety, Linebacker, and CB talent and skill level shortcomings under Mason relative to the recent Kill teams are
very obvious. The DL is deeper as well, but Mason usually had a few players on the DL.
Click to expand...

A lot of good points. I think the only thing I'd add is that Kill seems to find guys and match them to situations more than Mason did. I think this builds better depth and allows for stronger individual player development. Mason (probably his coordinators more than Glen) seemed to leave the same 11 guys out there in a relatively small number of defensive sets.
 

oak_street1981 said:
Who gives a rats ass about what the Minnesota HS coaches think? There is not a lot of high end talent here anyway and most of the blue collar players will go to MN regardless of what happens.

Minnesota can just write off the "elite" Cretin players anyway since none of them ever consider the U anyway. Mason probably had the right model anyway, bring in the 3rd tier Ohio and FL players, and hope they are good. MN talent is over-rated and the HS coaches whine too much. Mason was right to put them in their place.

Kill has Mason beat on one level, he has a coaching staff that can spot rough defensive diamonds and sign them, and his coaches can develop players on the D side. He also does not move any player with O/D two way potential to the offensive side quickly. (Speath)
Click to expand...

Yeah, who cares about guys like Hageman and Jones.
 

To compare Mason and Kill recruiting Minnesota players you need a 10 year grid. Let's hope Kill is around to make the comparison.
 

Is it possible that Mason had poor defensive strategy and Kill has poor offensive strategy? We seem to be unable to produce an offense. The defense ranked 26th in points allowed for the season. Fantastic job and a substantial improvement. Our offensive could not break into the top 50 in scoring. This is a complete inversion from the Mason years. The best programs do well on both sides of the ball. We continuously seem to be able to do just one side and never both sides. Is it that we are so cheap in our budget that we can only achieve one or the other? Do we now have the opposite problem of recent head coaches of not getting rid of dead coaching weight and bringing in better staff? I don't buy that tenure automatically brings better programmatic performance. Since we have done well/poorly on both sides of the ball proves that we can succeed on both sides. We just need to adjust to investing with equal success on both sides of the ball.
 

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