Josh Pastner's visit to watch Trevor Mbakwe - violation or not?

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GopherLady

GopherLady

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Not. I just wanted to set the record straight here (you all can believe me or not). I talked to a few compliance experts I know, and went to look it up myself and it falls under this:

Per bylaw 13.1.8.4 (4) during the summer evaluation period, it is permissible for a Men's basketball coach to attend non-institutional organized events (e.g. camps, leagues, tournaments and festivals) that are CERTIFIED. The event in question is on the NCAA Certified League list. Accordingly, it is permissible for a Men's college basketball coach to attend the Pro City League at Salvation Army Community Center in St Paul, Minnesota

I know this has been discussed on many other threads, but between the debate over changing a title (IMHO - I think it should stay, as it was the original title of the piece), and other things...I figured those who were questioning this act would want a quick and easy to find answer.
 

2009 December phone calls... Tampering or not
 

GopherLady said:
Not. I just wanted to set the record straight here (you all can believe me or not). I talked to a few compliance experts I know, and went to look it up myself and it falls under this:

Per bylaw 13.1.8.4 (4) during the summer evaluation period, it is permissible for a Men's basketball coach to attend non-institutional organized events (e.g. camps, leagues, tournaments and festivals) that are CERTIFIED. The event in question is on the NCAA Certified League list. Accordingly, it is permissible for a Men's college basketball coach to attend the Pro City League at Salvation Army Community Center in St Paul, Minnesota

I know this has been discussed on many other threads, but between the debate over changing a title (IMHO - I think it should stay, as it was the original title of the piece), and other things...I figured those who were questioning this act would want a quick and easy to find answer.
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Help me reconcile this.. what am I missing? My simple mind continues to come up with a very different conclusion...

The listing of certified leagues clearly has a disclaimer: "Note: League certification DOES NOT permit NCAA Division I basketball coaching staff members to attend. Please consult the list of certified events to identify those competitions that Division I coaches may attend."

Therefore, the next step is to consult the list of certified events, which was updated yesterday and continues to exclude the HP league.

Based on the exercise above, it does not appear the league has any dates are certified events that can be attended by coaches.

If we compare that to the Memphis league example...
League dates: June 15 to August 12 (Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursdays)
Certified event dates: July 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 22, 27, 28 and 29

Or if we compare that to the Milwaukee...
League dates: July 11, 16, 17, 23 and 24; and August 4, 6 and 8
Certified event dates: July 10, 23 and 24

Clearly, there is a distinction between a certified dates - Leagues vs. Events

...as for this reference to "bylaw 13.1.8.4 (4)", it doesn't exist. I think you mean 13.1.8.8.4. Ironically, you gave the same citation as memphisroar.com did. Nonetheless, the issue continues to be that there is a difference between a certified league and a certified event... this bylaw addresses events.

For those in attendance at HP on Tuesday... did you notice any of the minimum precautions required for certified events (which are not required for certified leagues)? If you stroll into Jefferson today, you'll notice separate entrances for coaches, training rooms with medical staff, educational sessions being offered, coaches in separate seating away from the common folks, etc... because it's a certified event.

I know reasonable people can disagree on matters, but for me this seems black and white. What am I missing that others are seeing so clearly?!
 

Rouser said:
2009 December phone calls... Tampering or not
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Pretty common to talk to your old coach about what's going on in your life, family, school, even how practice is going. It all depends...
 

Violation.

Reading through the NCAA rules (whew! no easy task), it looks to me like it's a violation. Even though the league is certified (allowing D1 eligible players to participate), it isn't a certified event (allowing D1 coaches to attend). If Pastner was seen there, isn't it odd that there weren't a bunch of other coaches in attendance (as one might expect if it was allowed)? It seems to me that coaches have always avoided the HP league games (due to this rule). Either Pastner wasn't there (posters have been pretty adamant that he was seen, however), or he broke the rule (knowingly or unknowingly).
 



I'll just say, wait and see what happens. This was clearly very public, if Memphis gets nailed for this - GW is right, and I will admit I'm wrong. I don't think it is a violation though, and I'm sticking to that. I don't doubt GW's links - I don't have the time to do any more research on this, so I'm going with the people I have talked to and info I've received.
 

GopherLady said:
I'll just say, wait and see what happens. This was clearly very public, if Memphis gets nailed for this - GW is right, and I will admit I'm wrong. I don't think it is a violation though, and I'm sticking to that. I don't doubt GW's links - I don't have the time to do any more research on this, so I'm going with the people I have talked to and info I've received.
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Not sure if anyone would get 'nailed' for it.. looks like a Level I Secondary Violation to me.. these things happen... institutions self-report them all the time...

I'm just puzzled by your conclusion... still trying to understand. If I follow correctly, you argued:

A coach can attend events that are certified. Because the event is on the certified league list, attendance was permissible.

However, when you go to THE source (i.e., the NCAA), they say that being on the certified league list "DOES NOT permit NCAA Division I basketball coaching staff members to attend. Please consult the list of certified events to identify those competitions that Division I coaches may attend."

If you look at the list the NCAA tells you to, you'll note the event is not on the list.

Being a certified event operator brings along with it a number of additional requirements that simply running a certified league does not include.

I just don't get the, "I am looking at a list that the NCAA clearly tells me is the wrong list to be looking at" argument.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
Not sure if anyone would get 'nailed' for it.. looks like a Level I Secondary Violation to me.. these things happen... institutions self-report them all the time...

I'm just puzzled by your conclusion... still trying to understand. If I follow correctly, you argued:

A coach can attend events that are certified. Because the event is on the certified league list, attendance was permissible.

However, when you go to THE source (i.e., the NCAA), they say that being on the certified league list "DOES NOT permit NCAA Division I basketball coaching staff members to attend. Please consult the list of certified events to identify those competitions that Division I coaches may attend."

If you look at the list the NCAA tells you to, you'll note the event is not on the list.

Being a certified event operator brings along with it a number of additional requirements that simply running a certified league does not include.

I just don't get the, "I am looking at a list that the NCAA clearly tells me is the wrong list to be looking at" argument.
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The list I received had HP on it (checked by an NCAA Compliance person), it's not the link you had, nor anything I can share. Now I know people will demand to see this - so you don't have to believe me by any means, but I trust it.
 



Gopher Warrior's post shows a "certified event date" (July 10) with no corresponding "league date" -- that would have to be an error if I understand this right.
 

GopherLady said:
The list I received had HP on it (checked by an NCAA Compliance person), it's not the link you had, nor anything I can share. Now I know people will demand to see this - so you don't have to believe me by any means, but I trust it.
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Thanks for the explanation.

In your original post, you had said, "The event in question is on the NCAA Certified League list."... which, according to the list on ncaa.org, it is - we all agree there - the league is certified.

So the list you're referring to now - you're saying that was a certified event list, right... and not a certified league list? Is this a different list than you originally described?

If so, I can understand your belief now, which I understand to be: The list that the NCAA has posted (including the June 28 update and the update that was made yesterday), excludes the HP league, but there is a list out there that you have, but you cannot share, that includes it. The secret list is the REAL list.

I don't doubt at all that there could be mistakes and typos (in fact, Tigers2B1 notes what appears to be one) on what the NCAA posts... but, strange that their list would completely exclude HP from the list... yet, there is another secret list that includes it.. certainly possible.

Can anyone that was at HP Tuesday tell us about the separate seating for coaches? -- there would have been signage. If this existed, it makes the secret list a lot more believable.

I certainly don't yet believe that Tuesday's HP games represented a certified event, but appreciate you explaning where your beliefs are coming from.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
...I don't doubt at all that there could be mistakes and typos (in fact, Tigers2B1 notes what appears to be one) on what the NCAA posts... but, strange that their list would completely exclude HP from the list... yet, there is another secret list that includes it.. certainly possible...
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I guess the point is if there is a clear error in what was posted from the site, and we only know that because it happened to be used here, than it's certainly possible that there are other errors. I suppose the real point is this, it would be common sense that Pastner has his own list of events he can attend and that the list is up to date and from the NCAA. As you know, Memphis is currently on NCAA probation. That being the case, I doubt very seriously that Pastner would attend a public event that he knew was off-limits. At least not purposely. But we DO KNOW that the NCAA list has at least one error --- and only because you happened to use that as an example.

And let me add - We had a very small sample from the NCAA and there was one obvious error --- and we only know about that error because 'on the face of it' it is an error. We, or at least I, would never be able to catch other errors including other types of wrong dates.
 

Tigers2B1 said:
I suppose the real point is this, it would be common sense that Pastner has his own list of events he can attend and that the list is up to date and from the NCAA. As you know, Memphis is currently on NCAA probation. That being the case, I doubt very seriously that Pastner would attend a public event that he knew was off-limits. At least not purposely.
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The list was updated again today.. I struggle with the idea that the NCAA keeps updating a list that is easily accessible, but has some other 'master list' that 'really counts'. I would agree - I don't think that, if the guy even was there (personally I was at the certified event, so didn't see him at the SAL), he purposely committed this violation.... although it's a little strange he wouldn't be more familiar with the minimum requirements and be able to figure things out.

I saw the entry at MemphisRoar.com and it's the same as GL is saying here - but the problem is that both are citing a bylaw that is irrelevant... if you're speeding, going 75 in a 30 mph zone... you don't tell the cop, 'it's OK,.. the light was green, so I was fine...if it's green, I can go!' That's what they're doing.

Looks like ignorance more than anything... but I'm at 98% on the belief-meter that it was a violation. Easily avoidable. Oh well, ... don't think it was intentional, just dumb. If someone can help me with what I'm missing (because honestly this seems so clear as day), please do and I will promptly donate $100 to Streets Ministries in your name.

Good luck this next season.. can't wait to see how the young class at Memphis does.. Jelan, Will Barton (his cousin Nick Faust is a stud as well), and Tarik especially..
 





Gopher Warrior said:
Memphis apparently shares that opinion. Pretty obvious stuff.

"Lynn Parkes, associate athletics director for Memphis, a Conference USA school, wrote Wednesday in an e-mail to the Pioneer Press, "We have submitted a report of this to both the NCAA and C-USA offices.""
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And the more a person thinks about it; he's familiar with the normal settings. I just don't see him walking in there and NOT realizing what's going on. He's been involved as a assistant at Arizona also. I'm going to guess he just figured he wouldn't get caught or it was so slight it's no big deal.
 


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