John Wall Chooses Kentucky

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The Truth said:
He's taking the provost with him to China this summer to have a University academic presence and attract students (not athletes) to UK. That kind of innovative thinking among coaches should be encouraged. We need more of that in the game.
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are you serious???? your telling me that cal actually cares if chinese students go to kentucky for academic reasons??seriously?? give me a break...it is obvious what he is trying to do, I am no saying this is illegal or anything but good lord quit trying to candy coat crap
 

howeda7 said:
For me it's very simple, never trust a coach with slick hair. And Cal's hair is about as slick as they come. The man just oozes sleaze.
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Nope, can't buy that one. After all, nobody had slicker hair than Gene Keady (old or young--see attached files) and I think he was pretty straight/trustworthy, except when it comes to fashion advice.
 

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The Truth said:
You mean like Tubby Smith's number 1 recruiting class at UK in 2004? All of whom were down to the wire, late signees and involved one who decommitted from Michigan?

And people get run off all the time when coaches change or to make room for players. Tubby did it at UK and he's done it at Minnesota.
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Correcting LIES by The Truth:

Ramel Bradley signed in Nov 2003, not down to the wire.

Joe Crawford and Randolph Morris both visited in Oct 2003, not late in the spring. Crawford decided in April at the beginning of the spring LOI period, along with Rajon Rondo.

Randolph Morris waited a little longer to choose UK over the NBA draft.

Tubby ran no players off at Minnesota and few at Kentucky. He booted a few (bums) at UK.

2 players transferred in the summer of 2007 due to the coaching change at Minnesota. That left 2 open scholarships, one of which was given to walk-on T Busch (for 2 years).

Busch and Kevin Payton BOTH graduated after spending 4 years in college. Both DESIRED more PT than they were going to get as Gophers in 2010.
 

The Truth said:
Substance i.e. player development, pro opportunities, life after basketball, being part of a championship caliber team etc.



You wanted to illustrate the downsides of salesmanship. I offered a counter to that and it's actually good fodder for discussion when we delve into the wider area outside of the particulars of the John Wall recruitment..which has already taken place. Helping the University, the community and the Commonwealth itself through your position is a great thing. Tubby did it and Calipari is continuing that but with a broader scope not just limited to charitable work.

Wouldn't it benefit Minnesota (the University and state) if Tubby got out in the international basketball community to not only help sell the basketball program and CBB in general to the wider world but help the University attract top notch foreign students by building relationships with government and educational contacts (like Calipari is doing) overseas?

Here are some good refernece materials for the Chinese discussion in regards to Calipari if you're so inclined. I personally think it's great and wish more coaches and Universities would sign on

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06E3DD163AF933A1575AC0A9619C8B63

http://www.kentucky.com/978/story/794885.html

http://chinasportstoday.com/en/blog/item/116/can_these_guys_fix_how_china_hoops
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Once again Numb Nuts has no clue.

Tubby HAS traveled INTERNATIONALLY several times this decade to promote basketball in general. Few, if any coaches do more charitable outreach work than Tubby Smith.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Correcting LIES by The Truth:

Ramel Bradley signed in Nov 2003, not down to the wire.

Joe Crawford and Randolph Morris both visited in Oct 2003, not late in the spring. Crawford decided in April at the beginning of the spring LOI period, along with Rajon Rondo.

Randolph Morris waited a little longer to choose UK over the NBA draft.
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Per Rivals:

Morris visited 10/18/2003 and committed 5/6/2004.

Crawford visited 10/17/2003 and committed 1/26/2004.

Rondo never visited but committed 1/26/2004.

Bradley visited 10/31/2003 and committed 11/9/2003.

Sparks (transfer) visited 5/19/2003 and committed 7/8/2003.
 


leftyslefty said:
touchy? "THE TRUTH" is that slick Cal passes envelopes. Heck John Chaney (unstable as he may be) threatened to kill the man, because he knew "THE TRUTH."

Now Professor Harold Hill is a gifted orator, and as long his emisaries remain discrete, he will expand his empire. They may even get another National Championship very soon, but anyone who thinks this being done without courier service in naive.......or a big Kentucky fan.

The big time guys who typically wait to commit until the very end, come at a price.
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The Truth is anything but. He is a liar to the core. He hates Tubby for a reason other than basketball.
 


I'm sorry, but Calipari at Kentucky, at a time when Kentucky's fan base and administration is absolutely starving for success, is a perfect storm for an extremely crooked program. Calipari's made his living at anything-goes schools like UMass and Memphis with one-and-done type players...that, combined with the recruiting of all these guys with such strong AAU influences (not to mention his program being nailed at UMass) puts him in the "presumed guilty" category as far as I'm concerned.

Are there others? Sure, not apologizing for them either.
 

gopheraschells said:
are you serious???? your telling me that cal actually cares if chinese students go to kentucky for academic reasons??seriously?? give me a break...it is obvious what he is trying to do, I am no saying this is illegal or anything but good lord quit trying to candy coat crap
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That's a very cynical viewpoint. Why wouldn't he attempt to help open China to CBB and as a byproduct help the University? He did it at Memphis and at UMass. It's akin to people claiming that K was self-serving and hurting Duke by coaching the Olympic team-an absurd notion. People who use their celebrity status and position to help others is a good thing. You know what the chances are of actually landing a great Chinese player are? Slim to none. That exposure though will help the University attract Chinese students though-which is often the rational for why schools spend so much money on athletics; to help attract more prospective students.


As to FoT-I think people are slowly starting to open their eyes in regards to him on this board. I think the man is genuinely mentally unbalanced at times. I hope he can get the help he needs.
 



WanderingGopher said:
I'm sorry, but Calipari at Kentucky, at a time when Kentucky's fan base and administration is absolutely starving for success, is a perfect storm for an extremely crooked program. Calipari's made his living at anything-goes schools like UMass and Memphis with one-and-done type players...that, combined with the recruiting of all these guys with such strong AAU influences (not to mention his program being nailed at UMass) puts him in the "presumed guilty" category as far as I'm concerned.

Are there others? Sure, not apologizing for them either.
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So were we crooked when Tubby was the coach? Or how about when Pitino was in Lexington..were we crooked then?

Impugning the character of two people like Dr. Todd and Mitch Barnhart is a reach. You couldn't find two finer people from a character standpoint.

A lot of this comes off as sour grapes frankly. For some reason it bothers people that Kentucky has a chance to regain the elite status that has been missing from the program consistently since 1998. I'm not talking about national championship/FF appearances here. I'm talking about being in the same company as your peers.

A lot of schools recruit one and doners. It's just that some coaches (like Roy Williams) are better at getting them to stick around for more than one year and even he has had problems. I don't see many people begrudging Harrison Barnes, a potential one and done type talent, if he signs with Minnesota. It seems that some people have a problem with the system (I do as well) and are pointing the fingers at the wrong culprits. If you want the system to change start petitioning David Stern, the NCAA and the NABC. Get that dead/quiet period in the Summer (something that Calipari wants.), lift the rule about one year in college before going pro, get the NCAA to review some of its more antiquated rules regarding the student-athlete.

Those are the things that will make a difference. Not whining on a message board about how this guy is "presumed guilty" because he's just a better recruiter who leverages his own abilities with his contacts.
 

The Truth said:
That's a very cynical viewpoint. Why wouldn't he attempt to help open China to CBB and as a byproduct help the University? He did it at Memphis and at UMass. It's akin to people claiming that K was self-serving and hurting Duke by coaching the Olympic team-an absurd notion. People who use their celebrity status and position to help others is a good thing. You know what the chances are of actually landing a great Chinese player are? Slim to none. That exposure though will help the University attract Chinese students though-which is often the rational for why schools spend so much money on athletics; to help attract more prospective students.


As to FoT-I think people are slowly starting to open their eyes in regards to him on this board. I think the man is genuinely mentally unbalanced at times. I hope he can get the help he needs.
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NOW I know (for sure) who you are. What a crock of crap.
 

The Truth said:
So were we crooked when Tubby was the coach? Or how about when Pitino was in Lexington..were we crooked then?

Impugning the character of two people like Dr. Todd and Mitch Barnhart is a reach. You couldn't find two finer people from a character standpoint.

A lot of this comes off as sour grapes frankly. For some reason it bothers people that Kentucky has a chance to regain the elite status that has been missing from the program consistently since 1998. I'm not talking about national championship/FF appearances here. I'm talking about being in the same company as your peers.

A lot of schools recruit one and doners. It's just that some coaches (like Roy Williams) are better at getting them to stick around for more than one year and even he has had problems. I don't see many people begrudging Harrison Barnes, a potential one and done type talent, if he signs with Minnesota. It seems that some people have a problem with the system (I do as well) and are pointing the fingers at the wrong culprits. If you want the system to change start petitioning David Stern, the NCAA and the NABC. Get that dead/quiet period in the Summer (something that Calipari wants.), lift the rule about one year in college before going pro, get the NCAA to review some of its more antiquated rules regarding the student-athlete.

Those are the things that will make a difference. Not whining on a message board about how this guy is "presumed guilty" because he's just a better recruiter who leverages his own abilities with his contacts.
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UK only cheated in the 40's (point shaving), 50's (NCAA Death Penalty in 1953), 60's (football), 70's (basketball AND football), 80's (basketball TWICE), and 90's (football).

UK has been clean as a whistle this (2K's) decade.
 






Stewart transfers, Liggins and Pilgrim are done in by grades/attitude issues, Donald Williams (I'm still not even certain he actually exists) who knows. The 13th scholarship is reserved for Meeks but the more I hear the more I'm questioning his return. It's a coin flip at this point with him leaning towards staying in if he can get guaranteed money as a 2nd rounder-which does happen.

Is this you rationalizing that this is OK????? People raised such a stink here about Busch's scholarship (which he was awarded as a walk-on...year to year basis) being used for someone else, and here is a program that is going to run off 3-4 current players, because the coach blatently oversigned the roster limits. That's disgusting. How can it be acceptable? A coach should only be able to sign players if there's a roster spot.

I love it that "Liggins and Pilgrim are done in by grades/attitude issues"....which is it? If their attitudes are too good, do they fix their grades so they flunk-out. Or if their grades are fine, do they make up an attitude problem to clear the way for the new cattle? If Liggins had averaged 20 ppg, I'm betting attitude and grades wouldn't be a problem??? Ugh....I gotta go wash my hands.:mad::mad::eek::eek::eek:
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
I know who this Truth person is. What I posted was accurate. Completely and utterly so.
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You don't know me and it's sad that you continue to resort to baseless accusations and vitriol because you have no fear of accountability for what you say. I don't hate you but I do feel a tremendous sense of sadness for why you are the way you are.

cheeseheadgophfan said:
Stewart transfers, Liggins and Pilgrim are done in by grades/attitude issues, Donald Williams (I'm still not even certain he actually exists) who knows. The 13th scholarship is reserved for Meeks but the more I hear the more I'm questioning his return. It's a coin flip at this point with him leaning towards staying in if he can get guaranteed money as a 2nd rounder-which does happen.

Is this you rationalizing that this is OK????? People raised such a stink here about Busch's scholarship (which he was awarded as a walk-on...year to year basis) being used for someone else, and here is a program that is going to run off 3-4 current players, because the coach blatently oversigned the roster limits. That's disgusting. How can it be acceptable? A coach should only be able to sign players if there's a roster spot.

I love it that "Liggins and Pilgrim are done in by grades/attitude issues"....which is it? If their attitudes are too good, do they fix their grades so they flunk-out. Or if their grades are fine, do they make up an attitude problem to clear the way for the new cattle? If Liggins had averaged 20 ppg, I'm betting attitude and grades wouldn't be a problem??? Ugh....I gotta go wash my hands.:mad::mad::eek::eek::eek:
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Again, this happens everywhere. This is why scholarships are one year deals. Tubby had players at UK that "moved on" to make room for others for a variety of reasons. Pitino was the same way. Players are leaving Kansas to make room for Xavier Henry and their class. Usually when a new coach comes in he evaluates his roster and sits down with players and tells them what is expected, how they fit in and what their roles will be. Most athletes don't like to accept that they'll have a changed role or decreased playing time (or none at all) or don't like playing in the new system. Academics also play a part if a player isn't getting it done in the classroom. I cited Liggins and Pilgrim based on information I have. Liggins and Stewart, for example, have already found new homes if they have the grades at UTEP if they want it. A good coach, even in a transitory period, will endeavor to ensure that those players who are academically eligible and who don't fit it in will have a place to play.

If you have a problem with it I suggest you petition the NCAA to change the rules regarding scholarships. The coaches and the Universities are the ones that want it this way for a number of reasons-one of which is the flexibility to construct a healthy, competitive roster that is not done in by a player flunking out or upgrade the talent level of a team if an area is found to be lacking. I suspect most fans are either a. indifferent or b. don't really understand how scholarships work.
 

Jim V2 said:
Nope, can't buy that one. After all, nobody had slicker hair than Gene Keady (old or young--see attached files) and I think he was pretty straight/trustworthy, except when it comes to fashion advice.
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I'll grant you that I think Coach Keady was fine. There is an exception to every rule. But I always thought of that thing on his head as more of an 'it' then hair. Kind of like what lives on Donald Trump.

Anyway, you have to admit that a lot of the coaches with slick hair have indeed been slick and sleazy characters: Calipari, Steve Lavin, Jim Harrick, Steve Fisher, Jim O'Brian, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Then there are those that may not have been implicated but who still ooze sleaze IMO such as Bill Self, Steve Alford and Jon Voight. But I might be biased on those. :cool:
 

We have a lot of hairists here. Luckily, I'm going bald so I don't have to face the stigmas and barriers that those with well coifed and oiled head pelts face in our society.
 

howeda7 said:
I'll grant you that I think Coach Keady was fine. There is an exception to every rule. But I always thought of that thing on his head as more of an 'it' then hair. Kind of like what lives on Donald Trump.

Anyway, you have to admit that a lot of the coaches with slick hair have indeed been slick and sleazy characters: Calipari, Steve Lavin, Jim Harrick, Steve Fisher, Jim O'Brian, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Then there are those that may not have been implicated but who still ooze sleaze IMO such as Bill Self, Steve Alford and Jon Voight. But I might be biased on those. :cool:
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Well, the "it" kept getting smaller over time, so my guess is hair. Besides, nobody would actually pay for that, right? Trump is the opposite of Keady in just about every way I can imagine, and that includes the dog fur on his head.

Yeah, I do have to admit that. But I'd be careful with the Bill Self comments. GL's journalistic prowess and contacts are growing by the day, and watching her wrath being visited on you would not be a pretty sight. :)
 

Looking down the road this really can't be all that great for Kentucky but the short-term may make up for it. Their APR will be taking a huge hit between this year and next. If Meeks comes back they are kicking 4 guys off the team which will all be 1 out of 2 guys and if any are academic casualties they will be 0 for 2. Next year Wall will be gone for sure and most likely Cousins with Patterson a good chance. Wall and Cousins will probably be 0 for 2 since they will be concentrating on the draft instead of school but Cal may convince them to finish out school(like Rose?) to get that extra point back and Patterson may be the same.

Looking at that, Kentucky will be losing anywhere from 4(for certain) to 10 APR points in the next two years. That seems to me like a huge hit and most likely scholarships lost in the not so distant future.
 

I can't really defend getting rid of 3-4 players, but it does happen. It's not something unique to the University of Kentucky. We will take our hits but come October, nobody will remember.

I'm not sure what past regressions have to do with anything. Coach Cal has not been reprimanded for anything by the NCAA.
 

WanderingGopher said:
I'm sorry, but Calipari at Kentucky, at a time when Kentucky's fan base and administration is absolutely starving for success, is a perfect storm for an extremely crooked program. Calipari's made his living at anything-goes schools like UMass and Memphis with one-and-done type players...that, combined with the recruiting of all these guys with such strong AAU influences (not to mention his program being nailed at UMass) puts him in the "presumed guilty" category as far as I'm concerned.

Are there others? Sure, not apologizing for them either.
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It's my understanding that at UMass the program was not nailed, Marcus Camby was. Cal was cleared of any wrong doing by the NCAA. I guess you could make the argument he should have known Camby was getting payments from an agent, but not really sure how any coach can definitely know or stop that.

Second, as for the recruiting class this year, 3 players UK has were destined for Memphis when Cal was there. Dodson had signed, Cousins had verbaled and Wall had made it known he wanted to play for Cal. Bledsoe also had Memphis on his list and was already being recruited by Cal. Hood and Orton had signed with UK before Cal came aboard and stayed on.

Therefore, it wasn't that big of a surprise that Cal got the class he got. Very impressive but it just didn't come out of thin air.
 

KentuckyCane said:
I can't really defend getting rid of 3-4 players, but it does happen. It's not something unique to the University of Kentucky. We will take our hits but come October, nobody will remember.

I'm not sure what past regressions have to do with anything. Coach Cal has not been reprimanded for anything by the NCAA.
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True, however, I'm having a hard time finding any record of UMASS making the Final Four in '96. Why is that?
 

ChestHair said:
True, however, I'm having a hard time finding any record of UMASS making the Final Four in '96. Why is that?
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Like I said, a player from that team(Camby) was getting payments from an agent. Thus, the Final Four appearance was vacated.

You can make the argument that Cal should have known, but I would say it's probably quite hard for a coach to police everything a player does. Bottom Line, the NCAA ruled that Cal did nothing wrong but that the player did, therefore the penalty.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/09/sports/umass-and-uconn-lose-96-honors.html
 

The Truth said:
You don't know me and it's sad that you continue to resort to baseless accusations and vitriol because you have no fear of accountability for what you say. I don't hate you but I do feel a tremendous sense of sadness for why you are the way you are.




Again, this happens everywhere. This is why scholarships are one year deals. Tubby had players at UK that "moved on" to make room for others for a variety of reasons. Pitino was the same way. Players are leaving Kansas to make room for Xavier Henry and their class. Usually when a new coach comes in he evaluates his roster and sits down with players and tells them what is expected, how they fit in and what their roles will be. Most athletes don't like to accept that they'll have a changed role or decreased playing time (or none at all) or don't like playing in the new system. Academics also play a part if a player isn't getting it done in the classroom. I cited Liggins and Pilgrim based on information I have. Liggins and Stewart, for example, have already found new homes if they have the grades at UTEP if they want it. A good coach, even in a transitory period, will endeavor to ensure that those players who are academically eligible and who don't fit it in will have a place to play.

If you have a problem with it I suggest you petition the NCAA to change the rules regarding scholarships. The coaches and the Universities are the ones that want it this way for a number of reasons-one of which is the flexibility to construct a healthy, competitive roster that is not done in by a player flunking out or upgrade the talent level of a team if an area is found to be lacking. I suspect most fans are either a. indifferent or b. don't really understand how scholarships work.
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You are going to pat Calipari on the back for finding these guys a place to play at UTEP. Have you ever been to El Paso and the campus, it is the hottest, most depressing piece of desert I have ever seen. I would not send my worst enemy there.
 

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