Jimmy Williams Trial - Day 2

[GopherLady]

The members of college basketball's coaching fraternity know the unwritten rule -- head coaches have the power to hire and fire their assistants without their athletic director's approval -- lawyers for former Gophers assistant Jimmy Williams argued Monday.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/94015774.html

 

[Calgoph]

I think the article pretty much confirms what we all knew...power coaches make their own rules. Or at least they think they do. But will that stand up in court?

I think the suit against Maturi was dismissed because he was obviously just doing his job (and following the real rules).

BTW, I agree fully with your previous post about not quitting a current job without making sure all background checks are complete and getting the offer in writing (and on company stationery I might add).

Fact is, people often get excited about job offers and don't listen well. When I was a sales manager I always discussed termination notices and sent out written job offers with all the details. I requested that the letter be signed & returned to me. No new employee was to quit a current job until they had signed off on my letter.

Keep up the good work, GL. I don't agree with you about Maturi but that's OK, I like your stuff.

 

[rrjackIII]

BTW, I agree fully with your previous post about not quitting a current job without making sure all background checks are complete and getting the offer in writing (and on company stationery I might add).

I agree with this generally. But as it says in the linked article:

{"Former Oklahoma State head coach Eddie Sutton, who won more than 800 games with five programs, said he's never heard of an athletic director stopping a head coach from hiring an assistant.
"I've always been the one to hire my assistant coaches," Sutton said."}

I have always been a Jimmy Williams fan. Perhaps I too easily overlooked his NCAA recruiting violations under Musselman. Back in the Dutcher days the University also saw their way past those violations when they allowed Dutcher to hire and keep Williams on as his assistant for 7 years even after he had been charged with these NCAA violations. Williams even served as Head Coach for a few games after the Madison incident.

I can see why Jimmy might think he had the job locked up - but I guess its best to have it in writing.

 

[CollegeBBallFan]

Perhaps it is an unwritten rule. But the real rule is the AD has the power to say, especially in this case where rule violations and university reputation are at stake. Also Tubby did not know of the past violations at the time, so Maturi was CYA. Williams should have also mentioned the past violations to Tubby as it was very pertinent to the position. Misrepresentation by Williams? Tubby must be having flashbacks as (it was insinuated) the AD at UK wanted him to replace one of his assistant coaches. Currently, at UK, assistant coach Rod Stickland has been reassigned after DUIs. The AD did that - not Calipari. Also the AD has promoted a former assistant AD into basketball operations. The boss is the boss.

 

[jovs]

I agree with this generally. But as it says in the linked article:

{"Former Oklahoma State head coach Eddie Sutton, who won more than 800 games with five programs, said he's never heard of an athletic director stopping a head coach from hiring an assistant.
"I've always been the one to hire my assistant coaches," Sutton said."}

I have always been a Jimmy Williams fan. Perhaps I too easily overlooked his NCAA recruiting violations under Musselman. Back in the Dutcher days the University also saw their way past those violations when they allowed Dutcher to hire and keep Williams on as his assistant for 7 years even after he had been charged with these NCAA violations. Williams even served as Head Coach for a few games after the Madison incident.

I can see why Jimmy might think he had the job locked up - but I guess its best to have it in writing.

No way is he allowed to work seven years for Dutcher and then denied the ability to work for Smith. Time for Maturi and the University to step up to the plate on this one. Compensate him and hire him if that is what he desires.

Mussleman was a 70's version of Calipari. How can you relate anything that happened under his tenure to today.

 

[UpnorthGo4]

I just read the article in the today's Strib. If GopherHolers are being honest with themselves they will have to admit that Tubby did not cover himself with glory during the deposition. This is an extremly unfortunate situation and nobody who was involved is going to come out of it unscathed.

 

[howeda7]

I just read the article in the today's Strib. If GopherHolers are being honest with themselves they will have to admit that Tubby did not cover himself with glory during the deposition. This is an extremly unfortunate situation and nobody who was involved is going to come out of it unscathed.

There's definately enough blame to go around. Tubby should have been more cautious in knowing the background of who he was interviewing, Maturi should have been quicker to shoot it down as soon as he heard it, and Williams should have had enough sense to get the offer in writing before taking further action, especially given he knew he had a history in MN. Ultimately, I don't think Williams wins this case, but he will succeed in getting some measure of 'revenge' I suppose. I'm a little surprised the U didn't pursue a settlement here. I'd think it would have been worth saving the embarrassment/distraction of this trial.

 

[Holy Man]

Settlement

Details are not completely coming to mind, but I thought Wiliams was suing for $50K, which in many cases is just begging to be settled with no intent of even going to trial. I suspect Jimmy and his legal team are surprised the U went to trial over that relatively light amount. Add up the time sucked up for everyone involved, and the cost has to be in the $50k range. Perhaps the legal department is sending a message to others that think they can get a quick settlement in a case that is mostly a distraction.

I agree plenty of blame to go around, but the bottom line is that you need to get it in writing. Too bad. I always liked Jimmy. He ran Dutch's camps when I was a kid and did a nice job. Great memories for me.

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

Details are not completely coming to mind, but I thought Wiliams was suing for $50K, which in many cases is just begging to be settled with no intent of even going to trial. I suspect Jimmy and his legal team are surprised the U went to trial over that relatively light amount.

Under our pleading rules, the Complaint doesn’t specify the requested amount of damages if greater than $50,000. Instead, the Complaint seeks damages in excess of that amount. Newspaper reporters covering the courts rarely seem to understand that and never explain it to their readers. When the closing arguments are made, I am certain that Williams’ attorney will ask the jury for several times that amount.

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

I'm a little surprised the U didn't pursue a settlement here. I'd think it would have been worth saving the embarrassment/distraction of this trial.

This is at least the second time that I have read here that there was no effort to settle the case. Is there a source for that information or is it just based on the fact that there haven't been published reports on the negotiations (which are usually strictly confidential)? I have no personal knowledge of this case, but I would be absolutely stunned to learn that either side wanted to try this case at the outset and refused to entertain settlement discussions.

Far more likely is that they simply couldn’t agree on what the case was worth.

Williams says: I gave up a job making $200,000 a year to come here and then you pulled the rug out from under me. How was I supposed to know that Tubby, who denies being able to remember anything specific about our discussions, is the only big time coach in America who has to answer to an AD when he puts his staff together? Now I can’t get a job to replace that income and have been damaged both in terms of lost income and lost stature in the coaching community. You should pay me $500,000 (or $750,000 or $1M) to compensate me for my losses and attorneys’ fees. Besides, if you try this case, the public will think that Tubby and Joel are a couple of bumbling morons who screwed this up from the get go. Pay me, and we can include a confidentiality provision in the deal.

The University says: Who quits their job without a firm offer from the new employer? Jimmy knew that he had NCAA baggage here and that the NCAA baggage has had a limiting effect on his entire career. How could he have thought that would be different here? Plus, while everybody may know that “power coaches” largely call the shots on their staff, everybody also knows that it’s the University, not the coach, who employs them. Jimmy’s been around a long time and knows how the world works. He didn’t need Tubby to tell him any of that and if he relied on some late night conversation with a distracted coach, brand new to his position, then it’s on him for being so foolish. Plus, if he’s such a great assistant, why hasn’t anybody snatched him up? Nothing new has happened, he’s the same guy that he was before he quit at OSU, but no one has tried to hire him? Look, we feel badly that there was a misunderstanding and we’ll pay you something ($30,000 or $60,000??) to help you get back on your feet, but there was no fraud and no contract and there’s no way we’re paying you six figures.

If my guess is anything close to accurate, then it would explain why there was no settlement. If Tubby’s deposition went as poorly as reported, then Jimmy’s camp would certainly have had raised expectations once that was done.

 

[WanderingGopher]

This is at least the second time that I have read here that there was no effort to settle the case. Is there a source for that information or is it just based on the fact that there haven't been published reports on the negotiations (which are usually strictly confidential)? I have no personal knowledge of this case, but I would be absolutely stunned to learn that either side wanted to try this case at the outset and refused to entertain settlement discussions.

Far more likely is that they simply couldn’t agree on what the case was worth.

Williams says: I gave up a job making $200,000 a year to come here and then you pulled the rug out from under me. How was I supposed to know that Tubby, who denies being able to remember anything specific about our discussions, is the only big time coach in America who has to answer to an AD when he puts his staff together? Now I can’t get a job to replace that income and have been damaged both in terms of lost income and lost stature in the coaching community. You should pay me $500,000 (or $750,000 or $1M) to compensate me for my losses and attorneys’ fees. Besides, if you try this case, the public will think that Tubby and Joel are a couple of bumbling morons who screwed this up from the get go. Pay me, and we can include a confidentiality provision in the deal.

The University says: Who quits their job without a firm offer from the new employer? Jimmy knew that he had NCAA baggage here and that the NCAA baggage has had a limiting effect on his entire career. How could he have thought that would be different here? Plus, while everybody may know that “power coaches” largely call the shots on their staff, everybody also knows that it’s the University, not the coach, who employs them. Jimmy’s been around a long time and knows how the world works. He didn’t need Tubby to tell him any of that and if he relied on some late night conversation with a distracted coach, brand new to his position, then it’s on him for being so foolish. Plus, if he’s such a great assistant, why hasn’t anybody snatched him up? Nothing new has happened, he’s the same guy that he was before he quit at OSU, but no one has tried to hire him? Look, we feel badly that there was a misunderstanding and we’ll pay you something ($30,000 or $60,000??) to help you get back on your feet, but there was no fraud and no contract and there’s no way we’re paying you six figures.

If my guess is anything close to accurate, then it would explain why there was no settlement. If Tubby’s deposition went as poorly as reported, then Jimmy’s camp would certainly have had raised expectations once that was done.

I think this is pretty reasonable speculation of how the settlement discussion went, assuming there was one. The problem is that is shouldn't have ended there. Indeed, your speculative numbers match up with what I've long suggested the case should've settled at -- split the difference and end up around $300k...a year and a half of the salary he was supposed to have. Wonder if this went to a mediator. Too late now. Attorneys fees presumably well into six figures by now...

 

[howeda7]

This is at least the second time that I have read here that there was no effort to settle the case. Is there a source for that information or is it just based on the fact that there haven't been published reports on the negotiations (which are usually strictly confidential)?

Perhaps I should have said, I'm surprised they didn't settle. I have no idea whether they pursued a settlement or not, but have never seen anything indicating they were trying to. This case has been going on for nearly 3 years, and if either side were inclined to settle, it likely would have happened long ago.

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

Perhaps I should have said, I'm surprised they didn't settle. I have no idea whether they pursued a settlement or not, but have never seen anything indicating they were trying to. This case has been going on for nearly 3 years, and if either side were inclined to settle, it likely would have happened long ago.

I am also surprised that they didn't settle, but it takes both sides to get it done and it's often hard work. Usually when there isn't a settlement, it's because one party (or both parties) has made an error in evaluating the case. When that happens, the fact that one or both want to settle doesn't insure a settlement.

 

[howeda7]

I am also surprised that they didn't settle, but it takes both sides to get it done and it's often hard work. Usually when there isn't a settlement, it's because one party (or both parties) has made an error in evaluating the case. When that happens, the fact that one or both want to settle doesn't insure a settlement.

Maybe, but I think the bigger factor here is Jimmy wants his day in court to air his complaints against the U and see Maturi and Tubby squirm a bit. As FOT said in another thread, this may have started with a badly handled situation with Tubby, but he probably wants this day in court as much for the things that happened decades ago then for the actual matter at hand.

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

Maybe, but I think the bigger factor here is Jimmy wants his day in court to air his complaints against the U and see Maturi and Tubby squirm a bit. As FOT said in another thread, this may have started with a badly handled situation with Tubby, but he probably wants this day in court as much for the things that happened decades ago then for the actual matter at hand.

You could be right, but if that’s the case, I think that it’s a miscalculation. If his reputation has been harmed and his future employment prospects have been dimmed, I think that is more the result of his actions in filing and taking to trial a lawsuit against his prospective employer and prospective boss than by anything Tubby or Joel did or did not do.

 

[NateDawgUM]

If we're playing by the written rules and everybody else plays by unwritten rules, is there any surprise that we suck at all of the sports that actually matter?