Jim Souhan column: Gophers, and their coach, need to suck it up

[Rouser]

I think the article was average at best. Give Souhan props for being captain obvious? Perhaps we could wait and see what happens before jumping down tubby's throat. I agree that a collapse is not a good sign for the program. However, I fear most of the rubes on this board will jump at a chance to rip the team/tubby if we play poorly tonight. Win or lose, its going to take quite a few games to properly adjust to the loss of Trevor.

At the end of the day, we do have more talent than we have had in some time. It may take time to adjust without Trevor and unfortuantely, we are not deep at PF. I will also say that Minnesota has never ever ever been a program at the level of where Wisky or Purdue is now. Never. Perhaps folks will revise history and claim it was under Clem. Wrong. He had some nice seasons but was famous for shaky recruiting and lack of consistency. How about that recruiting class of his following a final four run? Yeah...

 

[bga1]

"stoop to this level of players". Awesome. Glad to hear you've made your final determination on the quality of the roster from top to bottom. I have no doubt they are delighted to have your unconditional support.

I'll reserve my opinion on Tubby's recruiting ability until I see a year or two without some roster upheaval, whether it's due to injury, legal issues, or departures. Some of that is unquestionably on Tubby himself, but it doesn't change the fact that it's had an enormous impact on the on-court success.

I'm with you Ogee- with this one exception. Other than the injuries - part of recruiting has to be the ability to assess whether the people you recruit have the makeup, character and ability to work in your system and stay with you long enough to benefit the program. Either that or you need to be able to be a great psychologist or relationship expert to keep the boneheads that you recruit in line and productive. One way or another - at these pay grades (and the pay matters big time to expectations) you have to produce. Bad luck is not an excuse at this level. For that reason- I fully expect Tubby to finish this season with a team that at the very least competes for a run at the NCAAs. I think Northwestern is going to go this year - for Pete's sake! I think we have at least their level of talent and perhaps a fair amount more.

 

[dpodoll68]

Mav, Ingram, Chip, Oto, these guys were not heavily recruited by anyone.

I don't know what your definition of "heavily recruited" is, but Oto had offers from, and took official visits to, Florida, Iowa St. and Providence. Generally speaking, most schools don't pay for a recruit to come visit unless they're somewhat interested in having him play for them.

 

[Gopher Bandanna Guy]

I don't get your take. Souhan is saying that losing Mbakwe is not an excuse for a poor season. He never states that the Gophers should be as good with Trevor, just that losing a player like Trevor should not make a losing Big Ten season acceptable. He's not ripping on the Gophers, he's stating that Tubby should have enough talent on his roster to allow the Gophers to have a solid season. The Gophers should not be in a position to be one player away from "doom" if Tubby is doing his job. Your comparison to Northwestern is completely invalid. Tubby is being paid two million dollars a year and you don't compare his results to what would happen at a school that has never even been to the NCAA tournament. As for Wisconsin, if they lose Jordan Taylor, nobody would be satisfied with them missing the NCAA tournament.

If consideration of the circumstances is considered whining, the I suppose I'm being a whiner and should 'suck it up'. Consider that if this team were at the strength at which it was recruited, we'd have experienced seniors Colton Iverson and Devoe Joseph to pick up the slack at the loss of Mbakwe. Justin Cobbs would be a junior, and likely the running the point for 20-25 mpg. Those are 3 big losses. Let's not even get into Royce White. You add those players to this roster, and we have an entirely different animal of a team, one with the proper depth needed to overcome an injury like this, similar to Painter's Purdue team overcoming the loss of Hummell. More than anything, Souhan's throwaway statement undervaluing Mbakwe (calling him just a 2nd team All-Big Ten guy with 14 ppg) got me fired up. He's more than that - there's intangibles there. He's a leader, and the heart of the team.

Tubby's not making any excuses for the current predicament (yet), and that's why this feels like a hatchet job to me. Save this column for if/when he does. What's legit discussion is whether Tubby is ultimately responsible for the defections from the team that have kept us down. What's legit is discussion on whether he's getting the most out of his players (cough, Ralph, cough). What's legit is discussion about why our halfcourt offense always seems to be terrible.

Absolutely Tubby's tenure has been disappointing to date, and he is making a boatload of money. I'm certainly not happy with him, or where the team is at in year 5. But he's been working with an half empty toolbox since 2010. Blame him for what tools he brought and lost, if you must, but you have to acknowledge that he can't have absolute control over everything (namely the willingness for kids to stick). Souhan seems to cherry-pick what he wants to present to the reader and doesn't want to acknowledge the whole story. So to me, he's either being lazy or driving an agenda. Given his past, I'd go with the former.

 

[ruppertflywheel]

I will agree that the practice facility Tubby keep throwing up in our faces reminds me of the movie on the life of Howard Hughes. ( Aviator) Leonardo Dicaprio ( Hughes) couldn't stop saying: "Wave of the future, wave of the future, wave of the future...... Jeez Tubby, you just got beat by Dayton.
Do you think they've a mega-million practice facility? Boot Pammy back over to the Womens Sports Arena ( 5,600) She hasn't had a crowd over 5,000 since the Whalen years unless it has been some type of promotion.

 

[anonymous]

I understand that a lot of people don't like Souhan and his smarmy attitude, but I think he makes a number of very good points. Many of them are similar to those I made in the thread I started about what expectations should be the rest of the way.

I think that Tubby has done some good things since he has been here. But I also think that the program isn't where it should be in year five. There should be more depth. There should be more experience. The program should be in a spot where losing one player (yes a very, very good player) should lead to the wheels potentially falling off.

There are certainly a lot of reasons why Tubby has failed to get any serious momentum going, but ultimately he is the CEO of this program and the buck stops with him. He has recruited a combination of good players and average players, but he has not done a good enough job retaining players. Many of these can be rationalized away individually, but the as a whole, they haven't done a good enough job getting players to stick around.

The end of last year was a total disaster and I think a lot of that is on Tubby. It certainly isn't his fault that Al broke his foot, but it is his fault that he put a player who isn't a point guard into that role and then stubbornly stuck with that through loss after loss.

What I want to see over the next four months is Tubby coach his ass off, adjust what they run and how they play to the players available and I want to see young players get better. I don't know what that means in terms of wins and losses.

What I don't want to see is Tubby keep rolling out his same stagnant offense, the same bad defense and him not letting some of these young players develop. I don't want him to hear about how things would be different if they had Trevor available and make excuses. There was too much excuse making at the end of last season and I'll be disappointed if that happens again. And I'll also be very disappointed if he loses any of these young talented players. As they say in business, it's easier to keep a customer than to have to go out and find one to replace one that left. I think Tubby needs to work on retention.

In closing, I don't think Souhan was really all that far off base.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I decided to read it out of curiosity. How bad could it be? Unfortunately, I had forgotten a similar impulse once inspired me to search out a film called Human Centipede. I thought then what I had seen could never be topped. The crude depravity, the uninspired lazy brutality, the horrible inaccuracies (seriously, some things just aren't meant to be ingested, and I'm guessing would probably kill you). But then I read this astounding effort from Jim. You know, Jim's doggedly determined, there's no question. Pat Reusse, wheezing like an ol' Model T, keeps trying to pass him on the left, and jump out in front as worst sports writer in the history of the written word (not including cuneiform). But just when Pat thinks it's finally safe to break open the customary celebratory double-crave-case, Jim Souhan steps back into to gently but firmly reassert his place on top of Poo Mountain. But he's really exceeded himself this time. I think this column is so unnecessarily bitter, so 2-1/2-Men-level painfully unfunny, and so plain foolish, that I think Souhan may have jumped into the conversation for least intelligent American. There are some political figures out to pretty commanding leads, but if he keeps up this pace, he just might have a chance to catch 'em. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT, JIMMY. Now Sid, if you were reading this out loud for Jimmy, please stop right here. I don't want his feelings to get hurt.

Souhan sucks.

When is the review of a column better than the column itself? Kudos on an entertaining and expertly written piece.

That said, I disagree. Souhan strikes a nerve here because he brings up things we don't want to talk about. He's subtly off on some things and paints with a big brush, but he also strikes at some serious issues. The other posts in this thread are well stated, so I don't have to repeat, but I want to make one original point. I hear from a lot of people in and out of the Barn. I'm talking about the wide swath of fans between us hard-core Gopherholers and the casual bandwagon fans. This is the swath of fans that make it go, that make the difference between a half-full arena and a full one, the difference between a program with some buzz and one the community is apathetic about. You can bash Souhan all you want, but he's basically writing what a lot of the fan base is saying right now, speaking for them. And if you don't buy that, take a look at Williams Arena these days. This program is on the verge of irrelevance right now, at least in a relative sense. And it's about the winning or lack thereof. It's a bottom line business, and the bottom line is that the Gophers haven't won a NCAA tournament game in 14 years, and the university hired a coach four years ago at great expense to change that course and change it fast. The thing that troubles me most about the situation is that we're losing fans and losing relevance. And the hardcores on this board can say FU to them and call them overly negative and tell them to drink the koolaid or get the hell away. Well, be careful what you wish for.

As for the column, the one thing Jim poo-poos that he's naive about is the practice facility. Nobody should bash Tubby for pushing hard for it. It does make a huge difference in recruiting, and recruiting is where we're losing the war right now.

 

[ghnewbie]

I understand that a lot of people don't like Souhan and his smarmy attitude, but I think he makes a number of very good points. Many of them are similar to those I made in the thread I started about what expectations should be the rest of the way.

I think that Tubby has done some good things since he has been here. But I also think that the program isn't where it should be in year five. There should be more depth. There should be more experience. The program should be in a spot where losing one player (yes a very, very good player) should lead to the wheels potentially falling off.

There are certainly a lot of reasons why Tubby has failed to get any serious momentum going, but ultimately he is the CEO of this program and the buck stops with him. He has recruited a combination of good players and average players, but he has not done a good enough job retaining players. Many of these can be rationalized away individually, but the as a whole, they haven't done a good enough job getting players to stick around.

The end of last year was a total disaster and I think a lot of that is on Tubby. It certainly isn't his fault that Al broke his foot, but it is his fault that he put a player who isn't a point guard into that role and then stubbornly stuck with that through loss after loss.

What I want to see over the next four months is Tubby coach his ass off, adjust what they run and how they play to the players available and I want to see young players get better. I don't know what that means in terms of wins and losses.

What I don't want to see is Tubby keep rolling out his same stagnant offense, the same bad defense and him not letting some of these young players develop. I don't want him to hear about how things would be different if they had Trevor available and make excuses. There was too much excuse making at the end of last season and I'll be disappointed if that happens again. And I'll also be very disappointed if he loses any of these young talented players. As they say in business, it's easier to keep a customer than to have to go out and find one to replace one that left. I think Tubby needs to work on retention.

In closing, I don't think Souhan was really all that far off base.

+1. Excellent take on the article.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

I don't know what your definition of "heavily recruited" is, but Oto had offers from, and took official visits to, Florida, Iowa St. and Providence.

Of course, those offers and official visits are not factual.. but, in Oto's case it's important to remember he was looking like a 2011
kid originally and hadn't been in the U.S. for long.. so not exactly a 'normal' recruitment.

 

[ruppertflywheel]

So after the practice facility do we build Tubby a bigger arena because the Barn has seen its better days? Butler is still playing in the old War Memorial Arena. The last two years they made it to the Final 4.

 

[dpodoll68]

those offers and official visits are not factual

So, Oto's a liar then?

Man, everyone's throwing around pretty serious accusations without much regard today! First Nadine is calling a reporter in Austin and/or Tim Brewster a liar, and now J.B. is calling Oto a liar? (This after J.B. has previously called Jerry Kill a liar for the rate at which he has disclosed his health problems.) Wow. What exactly is GH's agenda? To eventually call everyone currently or previously associated with the University of Minnesota Athletic Department a liar?

 

[Reserve]

Jeez Tubby, you just got beat by Dayton.

Although I'm taking the quote at face value, the ESPN announcers said that the last 7 out of 8 times Dayton played a big 6 school, they beat them. With ours, of course, that would make it 8 out of the last 9. While disappointing I don't understand, provided the above is true, why people were so worked up about this loss. It wasn't the end of the world and Dayton has certainly proven their worth against big schools.

 

[scher215]

I will agree that the practice facility Tubby keep throwing up in our faces reminds me of the movie on the life of Howard Hughes. ( Aviator) Leonardo Dicaprio ( Hughes) couldn't stop saying: "Wave of the future, wave of the future, wave of the future...... Jeez Tubby, you just got beat by Dayton.
Do you think they've a mega-million practice facility? Boot Pammy back over to the Womens Sports Arena ( 5,600) She hasn't had a crowd over 5,000 since the Whalen years unless it has been some type of promotion.

Since no one answered your question ... Yes, Dayton does have a facility where teams (including basketball) practice separate from their playing arena. Whoops.

http://www.daytonflyers.com/facilities/practice/

 

[Gopher Warrior]

dpodoll68 - You're joking, right?

 

[dpodoll68]

dpodoll68 - You're joking, right?

Nope. Why would I be? The recruiting sites get their information from the recruits themselves. By stating that those visits/offers weren't factual, you are stating that Mr. Oto Osenieks is lying.

Also, do you deny inferring (not explicitly stating, mind you) that Jerry Kill is a liar?

 

[ruppertflywheel]

Since no one answered your question ... Yes, Dayton does have a facility where teams (including basketball) practice separate from their playing arena. Whoops.

http://www.daytonflyers.com/facilities/practice/

It is a glorified Bierman Complex. NOT a separate practice facility for BB ONLY Tubby wants it specifically for Gopher Basketball. Period, end of story.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

So, Oto's a liar then?

Man, everyone's throwing around pretty serious accusations without much regard today! First Nadine is calling a reporter in Austin and/or Tim Brewster a liar, and now J.B. is calling Oto a liar? (This after J.B. has previously called Jerry Kill a liar for the rate at which he has disclosed his health problems.) Wow. What exactly is GH's agenda? To eventually call everyone currently or previously associated with the University of Minnesota Athletic Department a liar?

"Serious accusations".. aka, "facts" and "reasonable comments".

Your version: I called Oto a liar.
Reality: I corrected your claims which were factually off base. I've never heard Osenieks claim that he had offers from, and took official visits to all those schools and I don't believe he ever has. I simply saw you make the claim, which I know to be untrue. Further, I went on to explain why Oto isn't your typical late signee who was passed on by a bunch of programs because they didn't have any interest. I like the kid and I like facts. My “agenda” was to help you out with getting your facts right. Rarely can I provide knowledge to anyone unless the topic is eating obscene amounts of food, being a dork or avoiding women, but this was a rare case where I am factually on point. There is no agenda. It's not about Oto or the U. It's simply about you being incorrect and me helping you out.

By the way, me even responding to such silly accusations (which is what you leveled at me in your post) is a compliment. I realize you are a relatively bright guy - perhaps you’ll see the errors in your way. I asked if you were joking, because the post seemed like it was coming from a complete numbskull.

Nope. Why would I be? The recruiting sites get their information from the recruits themselves. By stating that those visits/offers weren't factual, you are stating that Mr. Oto Osenieks is lying.

Aha, I think I see the disconnect. You believe something that is absolutely untrue and you’re having trouble using common sense. Recruiting sites do not get all their “information” from the recruits themselves. That is completely false. They are littered with inaccuracies and if you honestly go to a site like Rivals and see a little checked box that says Oto Osenieks has an offer from certain schools or there is a date of a visit listed, this means that Rivals talked to Oto and he told him that those offers and visits occurred, then you are one gullible guy. You’re not that dumb, my friend. Stop that.

Your version: I called Jerry Kill a liar for the rate at which he has disclosed his health problems.
Your updated version: I inferred but did not explicitly state that Jery Kill is a liar.
Reality: In response to Kill claiming that he was the most open coach in the nation, I said that it was annoying to hear that when clearly he hasn’t been open about things in the past. My take is factual and can be easily evidenced. Unless you believe a guy yelling “I don’t want to talk about it!” multiple times is as open as a person can possibly be. Now, do I believe he literally meant that he was #1 on the open chart? No, course not. However, he did really mean to claim that he was an open guy, which he is not. It’s subjective and based on opinion. Do I think when Kill says he’s the most open coach in the nation, which I take to mean that he believes he is very open about everything people would like to know about, that his belief is a bunch of bunk? Absolutely. It is. I don't know that he's lying - he may very well believe it and probably views the definition of 'open' differently than I do (i.e., he may think health is not important to his job and therefore not being open about that topic doesn't make him less open as a football coach... I disagree there. Strongly.). I’m concerned about his health, his family and friends as well as the football program and the university. That’s the “agenda” there.

 

[dpodoll68]

Recruiting sites do not get all their “information” from the recruits themselves. That is completely false. They are littered with inaccuracies and if you honestly go to a site like Rivals and see a little checked box that says Oto Osenieks has an offer from certain schools or there is a date of a visit listed, this means that Rivals talked to Oto and he told him that those offers and visits occurred, then you are one gullible guy. You’re not that dumb, my friend. Stop that.

First off, I'd like to apologize for overreacting. You're generally a good guy who sometimes goes a little too far with things, and I assumed that was the case here. Anyhoo, in reference to the above, where do the sites get their information from if not the recruits themselves? Do they just manufacture it out of thin air?

 

[zambam]

First off, I'd like to apologize for overreacting. You're generally a good guy who sometimes goes a little too far with things, and I assumed that was the case here. Anyhoo, in reference to the above, where do the sites get their information from if not the recruits themselves? Do they just manufacture it out of thin air?

Anonymous sources.

 

[Stan]

First off, I'd like to apologize for overreacting. You're generally a good guy who sometimes goes a little too far with things, and I assumed that was the case here. Anyhoo, in reference to the above, where do the sites get their information from if not the recruits themselves? Do they just manufacture it out of thin air?

Some of the pay sites get their recruiting info from tweets HS kids make about the video games they play and then try to pass that off as exclusive recruiting info.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

First off, I'd like to apologize for overreacting. You're generally a good guy who sometimes goes a little too far with things, and I assumed that was the case here. Anyhoo, in reference to the above, where do the sites get their information from if not the recruits themselves? Do they just manufacture it out of thin air?

I figured you'd be reasonable. Thanks. Pals again!

I'm not sure of all their sources outside of the kids, but I'd guess there are many including parents, HS/AAU/etc coaches, local media, people 'close to a program', fans and students.

As schools can't comment on prospective student-athletes who aren't yet enroll or haven't signed an NLI, there always needs to be a certain level of skepticism held. The inaccuracies can also be very innocent. Things can change quickly and unexpectedly.. one day a recruit is expected to visit a school... so a website reports it, enters the date in their database... but, something comes up and the visit doesn't happen that weekend. An update might never get made to the database.

So, no.. I don't think anything is manufactured out of thin air, but in some cases, pretty close to it. The vetting process doesn't always appear to be strong and some of the information is impossible to verify. Two people can have very different ideas about what constitutes an offer.

BTW, I think some of those sites are probably great sources.. I just wouldn't look at one or two and take what they're saying as pure fact.

 

[bemidjigopher]

personally i think chip was a good get, he was going to LSU for football, be a DB, so we have an "SEC type athlete" on our roster, I believe if he hadn't been show invested in football he would've gotten some good offers. Dre Hollins and Colemon were 4star espn top 100 recruits, so its not like they can't play, this team is really young, but pretty much the entire backcourt will be hear in two years, and a few in three years, with Ellenson coming in, he'll probably redshirt, as of now we don't need to recruit in the backcout until Tyrus Jones' class

 

[atsgopher]

I used to enjoy his articles… This is written almost like he was high. He brings up logic while simultaneously rejecting it.

The first paragraph is a straw man.
The Second is a logical, rhetorical, and grammatical nightmare. It’s written backwards.

The third is contradicts the premise of first two, then we hear the article’s main point. Which is Tubby deserves the blame. OK Jim, yes he should shoulder more of it publically.

The fourth is actual writing. Did I really just read something that took four paragraphs to state the premise?

The fifth is irrelevant, ad nauseum.

The sixth he gets back to the point.

The seventh is passing off symptoms as problems.

The eighth manifests souhan’s own doubts about his argument.

The ninth is more irrelevance and confusing, unless the premise changed.

The tenth is wild speculation about Tubby’s intent that shows someone has never paid attention to Tubby.

After that it seems like a new article starts that is not all that off base.

Jim, if you read this: you're better than that. This was lazy like you just scanned in a loose collection of notes.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Gophers in Iowa-

I would agree that by Minnesota standards Tubby's recruiting has been pretty good and he has had to suffer through a couple of lousy Minnesota HS crops.

The two issues I see with Tubbys recruiting are:

1. There is a perception that he is living on his reputation and name in getting the guys he has gotten. It's great that he has that name brand. However, he feels to me like a great salesperson that is on his way down milking his old relationships and not moving in fresh directions. When you read reports on recruits- other than Tyus- it always seems that Tubby and company are late to the party and not pushing as hard as a hungry coach might. So the recruits have been good but there is the feeling among a lot of folks that it could be better and that is frustrating.

2. His recruiting has not seemed to put players together that have complementary skills. Shooters to go with athletes. Playmakers and natural point guards to go with big men and bangers. I am encouraged by the shooters in this last class, but in general he seems to go with athletes over basketball players and there either has to be a balance OR the ability to develop the skills of those athletes over time. Certainly the failure to recruit a true PG druing his tenure has hurt the perception of his recruiting. That said I am a big fan of Andre Hollins and have hopes he may get there in addition to his natural scoring abilities. His system seems to be difficult for guards to run - so it is possible that it is not the recruiting so much as the older systems.

Bo Ryan is not a great recruiter, but he is great at recrutiing guys that fit together in his system. Then his ability to develop them has made his recruiting work really well. To succeed big time you either need to be a great recruiter or a great developer of the talent you bring in. If guys leave- that's life- you are responsible for who you recruit regardless. That's life in the big world of $2 million contracts.

That makes sense and I agree with some of what you said. I think he had a plan, but it failed because of so many players not working out. Some of the blame certainly can be put on him, but I don't think all of it should.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Bingo on Tubby's recruiting. Let's be honest, he won more games and got to the dance with Monson's recruits. DJ, Westbrook, Nolen, Hoff, etc. White, Williams and Trevor would have come to MN with any good hire. Mav, Ingram, Chip, Oto, these guys were not heavily recruited by anyone. I don't care if they were spring recruits or not. If you have depth in recruiting you do not stoop to this level of players.

You're assuming quite a bit there.

 

[howeda7]

There's nothing inherently awful about this article. But nothing insightful about it either. "In year 5 Tubby should be able to withstand one injury." OK. Thanks Jim. Great insight. Do they still have a team down at that Xavier school noone's ever heard of?

 

[Unregistered User]

Honest question, since I never even look for his links on my daily journey to the Strib site:

What was the last article Souhan wrote about Gopher BBall prior to this one?

 

[huckx008]

Well Said

 

[hendo59]

Did they suck it up enough for you tonight, Souhan?