Is Tubby really too tough???

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scher215

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People have complained about Tubby's yelling, his calling out players, his "old-school" demeanor driving away recruits and players, but just wondering ... how could he be any worse than other coaches? Does something happen behind closed doors no one knows about?

I mean, in the last week I watched the K-State game led by this gentleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAJQ2dDSW-E

and watched Coach K mock his teams effort on the sideline and throw a chair in a huddle.

How can Tubby possibly be any "worse" than this that it drives players away? Makes it tough for me to believe it is Tubby's fault that players have transfered. Bobby Knight choked a kid and kept players around.

Thoughts?
 

scher215 said:
People have complained about Tubby's yelling, his calling out players, his "old-school" demeanor driving away recruits and players, but just wondering ... how could he be any worse than other coaches? Does something happen behind closed doors no one knows about?

I mean, in the last week I watched the K-State game led by this gentleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAJQ2dDSW-E

and watched Coach K mock his teams effort on the sideline and throw a chair in a huddle.

Hoe can Tubby possibly be any "worse" than this that it drives players away? Makes it tough for me to believe it is Tubby's fault that players have transfered. Bobby Knight choked a kid and kept players around.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think there's a disconnect between the Tubby system and the players and skill sets he's recruited that is creating some chaffing between players and coach. Some of the guys just can't perform the things he wants done on one end of the court or the other. They don't seem to understand when he wants them to be aggressive and when he wants them to be patient. His messages - the ones we see are strange. He says after the game that Ahanmisi was not mature enough to step up and hit those shots. Not mature enough or just not capable? He said he wanted tough players that will drive to the bucket - yet his one drive to the bucket guy was firmly on the bench for most of the game because of perceived defensive issues. He talks about stepping up and making shots but he complains about Hoff and others when they take shots. A lot of these guys look like they are under orders not to shoot.

It's hard to say if he's too harsh. We aren't there. But you have to look at how these guys play and ask yourself- are they confident? Most of these guys arrive with a lot of confidence, maybe too much and they have to relearn things at this level. Is there something about Tubby or his systems that are difficult to learn or understand that tends to freeze a player up? At any rate it sure seems as though the words in the pressers where he is placing the blame on the players (rightly or wrongly) are not adding to their confidence. Isn't a lot of coaching the building of confidence? It could be he just has a mix of players that don't fit with his mentality. If so it's up to him to fix it.
 

I think it's mostly just people trying to find something to talk / complain about.

He's a basketball coach. No big deal. There are a ton of coaches that are very demanding and "tough" to play for. Lots of coaches yell and call it like they see it - loudly. I don't think "being tough" on players is an "old school" thing at all.

But then again, I think nuns should still take a ruler and whack the crap out of kids who are acting up... not that it resulted in me being a well behaved kid or adult, but I'm believer.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
I think it's mostly just people trying to find something to talk / complain about.

He's a basketball coach. No big deal. There are a ton of coaches that are very demanding and "tough" to play for. Lots of coaches yell and call it like they see it - loudly. I don't think "being tough" on players is an "old school" thing at all.

But then again, I think nuns should still take a ruler and whack the crap out of kids who are acting up... not that it resulted in me being a well behaved kid or adult, but I'm believer.
Click to expand...

Probably right. One thing is true for sure. When you are a big time coach and you lose then whatever you are doing- it's wrong. There's only one cure for that no matter what you say- win.
This town wants to be behind Tubby very badly and has been 100% for three years. This season was bad- real bad, but he can get the fans back on his side again.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
I think it's mostly just people trying to find something to talk / complain about.

He's a basketball coach. No big deal. There are a ton of coaches that are very demanding and "tough" to play for. Lots of coaches yell and call it like they see it - loudly. I don't think "being tough" on players is an "old school" thing at all.

But then again, I think nuns should still take a ruler and whack the crap out of kids who are acting up... not that it resulted in me being a well behaved kid or adult, but I'm believer.
Click to expand...

You had a weak nun. I had a nun(Sister Mary Godzilla) that when seated at her desk, could take that aqua colored eraser and hit you between the eyes even if you were in the last row.:eek:
 


bga1 said:
I think there's a disconnect between the Tubby system and the players and skill sets he's recruited that is creating some chaffing between players and coach. Some of the guys just can't perform the things he wants done on one end of the court or the other. They don't seem to understand when he wants them to be aggressive and when he wants them to be patient. His messages - the ones we see are strange. He says after the game that Ahanmisi was not mature enough to step up and hit those shots. Not mature enough or just not capable? He said he wanted tough players that will drive to the bucket - yet his one drive to the bucket guy was firmly on the bench for most of the game because of perceived defensive issues. He talks about stepping up and making shots but he complains about Hoff and others when they take shots. A lot of these guys look like they are under orders not to shoot.

It's hard to say if he's too harsh. We aren't there. But you have to look at how these guys play and ask yourself- are they confident? Most of these guys arrive with a lot of confidence, maybe too much and they have to relearn things at this level. Is there something about Tubby or his systems that are difficult to learn or understand that tends to freeze a player up? At any rate it sure seems as though the words in the pressers where he is placing the blame on the players (rightly or wrongly) are not adding to their confidence. Isn't a lot of coaching the building of confidence? It could be he just has a mix of players that don't fit with his mentality. If so it's up to him to fix it.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if the players are 'buying into the system".
 

Gopher Warrior said:
I think it's mostly just people trying to find something to talk / complain about.

He's a basketball coach. No big deal. There are a ton of coaches that are very demanding and "tough" to play for. Lots of coaches yell and call it like they see it - loudly. I don't think "being tough" on players is an "old school" thing at all.

But then again, I think nuns should still take a ruler and whack the crap out of kids who are acting up... not that it resulted in me being a well behaved kid or adult, but I'm believer.
Click to expand...

I still have a scar on my left hand where Sister Sophie whacked me with a ruler in 4th grade (1960 or 61, I think).
 

scher215 said:
People have complained about Tubby's yelling, his calling out players, his "old-school" demeanor driving away recruits and players, but just wondering ... how could he be any worse than other coaches? Does something happen behind closed doors no one knows about?

I mean, in the last week I watched the K-State game led by this gentleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAJQ2dDSW-E

and watched Coach K mock his teams effort on the sideline and throw a chair in a huddle.

How can Tubby possibly be any "worse" than this that it drives players away? Makes it tough for me to believe it is Tubby's fault that players have transfered. Bobby Knight choked a kid and kept players around.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Frank Martin is an entirely different guy off the court. Tough as nails on it. Really hard on his players.
 

I think the OP was on to something until he brought up Bobby Knight. Once you get to that level of noted behavior towards your players it becomes very difficult to recruit. Is Tubby too tough? Players will decide that.
 





3 Froshmen and 1 Soph and 1 senior are what makes up our PG, SG and SF group on this team...what do people think is going to happen? These guys aint the fab 5 to begin with...nobody expected us to need to have Maverick start or play any real minutes this year...nobody expected us to need to have Blake play the point, or have RW play 90% of his minutes at SG or have Armelin play meaningful minutes at the end of games...really, this team lost its best ball handler (Al), best playmaker (Devoe), best small forward (Carter), and top recruit (Royce) plus a back up PG (Cobbs) and a backup center (Big Mo)...we do suck right now and we are playing a little below our talent level thats for sure...but its hard to be up beat and excited when both your legs, an arm and your left eye are torn out...just because you still got one arm and one eye. Takes time to get your Mojo back...and its a lot harder during the Big Ten season when your on nationaly TV twice per week.

No excuses for how or why we got here...but we are here and hard to say this team we have left could be doing much better considering the disappointment of the season for them...they worked really hard to get here and now don't have the team they thought they wer going to have.
 

GopherinPhilly said:
3 Froshmen and 1 Soph and 1 senior are what makes up our PG, SG and SF group on this team...what do people think is going to happen?
No excuses for how or why we got here...
Click to expand...


I think we're mixing up topics.. this thread was just 'is Tubby really too tough?' But,... just for kicks,... vs the '3 FR/1 SO/1 SR' comment... I could also argue that our top 6 players were:

1 SR who is an elite shooter with a tremendous amount of experience
3 JRs with plenty of experience, impressive size, and 2 that have above average skill
1 SO with all world athleticism who came into the program as a highly regarded recruit nationally (not to mention all the stupid NBA talk over the past two years)
1 FR with good length and solid IQ

That top 6 is not a bad group and should have won more games than they have. It has been disappointing and this team (excluding those that were 'unavailable to play') has underachieved.
 





CollegeBBallFan said:
Oh....too inflexible. Well, how about letting the kids running the program?
Click to expand...

Blake at point. Diminished both guard positions. Coach up your chosen freshmen at least to dribble the ball over half court rather than tire out your only outside shooter. It worked for one game. Inflexible.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
I think we're mixing up topics.. this thread was just 'is Tubby really too tough?' But,... just for kicks,... vs the '3 FR/1 SO/1 SR' comment... I could also argue that our top 6 players were:

1 SR who is an elite shooter with a tremendous amount of experience
3 JRs with plenty of experience, impressive size, and 2 that have above average skill
1 SO with all world athleticism who came into the program as a highly regarded recruit nationally (not to mention all the stupid NBA talk over the past two years)
1 FR with good length and solid IQ

That top 6 is not a bad group and should have won more games than they have. It has been disappointing and this team (excluding those that were 'unavailable to play') has underachieved.
Click to expand...

But everyone always says guard play is what wins in college basketball. Fact is, our guards are very young as a group, and it showed. The bigs can't run an offense without guards, guards start the offense off. I think that was his point. But even that said, I agree, they should have won more games down the stretch, which is obvious considering they led most of them late in the game. Hopefully we'll get better guard play next season.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
I think we're mixing up topics.. this thread was just 'is Tubby really too tough?' But,... just for kicks,... vs the '3 FR/1 SO/1 SR' comment... I could also argue that our top 6 players were:

1 SR who is an elite shooter with a tremendous amount of experience
3 JRs with plenty of experience, impressive size, and 2 that have above average skill
1 SO with all world athleticism who came into the program as a highly regarded recruit nationally (not to mention all the stupid NBA talk over the past two years)
1 FR with good length and solid IQ

That top 6 is not a bad group and should have won more games than they have. It has been disappointing and this team (excluding those that were 'unavailable to play') has underachieved.
Click to expand...

this probably is the best post with regards to the last half of the season.

it appears there is more going on with this team. more than chalking it all up to injuries and a transfer.
 

The problem is

that Tubby insisted on playing the 3 bigs for too long. If he had gone with Maverick or Chip or a combo of both we would have lost the first 2-3 games but down the strech as they got used to playing we would have won 2-3 additional games.
 

bga1 said:
I think there's a disconnect between the Tubby system and the players and skill sets he's recruited that is creating some chaffing between players and coach. Some of the guys just can't perform the things he wants done on one end of the court or the other. They don't seem to understand when he wants them to be aggressive and when he wants them to be patient. His messages - the ones we see are strange. He says after the game that Ahanmisi was not mature enough to step up and hit those shots. Not mature enough or just not capable? He said he wanted tough players that will drive to the bucket - yet his one drive to the bucket guy was firmly on the bench for most of the game because of perceived defensive issues. He talks about stepping up and making shots but he complains about Hoff and others when they take shots. A lot of these guys look like they are under orders not to shoot.

It's hard to say if he's too harsh. We aren't there. But you have to look at how these guys play and ask yourself- are they confident? Most of these guys arrive with a lot of confidence, maybe too much and they have to relearn things at this level. Is there something about Tubby or his systems that are difficult to learn or understand that tends to freeze a player up? At any rate it sure seems as though the words in the pressers where he is placing the blame on the players (rightly or wrongly) are not adding to their confidence. Isn't a lot of coaching the building of confidence? It could be he just has a mix of players that don't fit with his mentality. If so it's up to him to fix it.
Click to expand...

If the messages the players are getting privately are the same ones he's stating publically, I can understand if they're confused. I'm confused.

You mention confidence. I've always felt there are two elements to confidence:
1. Knowing what you are doing
2. Having the ability to do it

You have to have both. This team has more ability than what you're seeing out there. It comes down to them knowing what they're doing - or knowing what they're supposed to be doing. I for one don't think they're merely failing to execute a clear scheme or game plan, as some have suggested.
 

Bad Gopher said:
If the messages the players are getting privately are the same ones he's stating publically, I can understand if they're confused. I'm confused.

You mention confidence. I've always felt there are two elements to confidence:
1. Knowing what you are doing
2. Having the ability to do it

You have to have both. This team has more ability than what you're seeing out there. It comes down to them knowing what they're doing - or knowing what they're supposed to be doing. I for one don't think they're merely failing to execute a clear scheme or game plan, as some have suggested.
Click to expand...

I agree with your assesment of confidence. 100%. I would change the wording a little bit to being, 1) Having the ability to do it 2) knowing when to do it. Westbrook had the ability, but lacked the knowledge of when. I think Tubby has no problem with aggressive guys, if they are aggressive at the right times and make the right decisions with their aggression. When to drive and finish, drive and pull up, shoot the 3, drive and dish, or pass for an open shot. I think he gets REALLY frustrated when agressive guys be agressive just for the sake of being agressive.

Tubby runs a complicated system (that's the impression I get anyways) that needs smart, athletic players to execute. You can still be effective in it if you aren't athletic, but either way better be smart. Know when to drive, when to shoot, etc. That is why I think Tubby will LOVE Andre. He seems to be a very very smart player. Austin is as well, and Blake most of the time is too.
 

I don't know if he is too tough, but I think he is too inflexible.

1. FOT - No team wins every winnable game year in and year out.
2. Tubby's coaching style with the Gophers appears to be to try to keep games close. Focus on playing strong team defense and chew up clock on the offensive end. In my mind this a double edged sword, it keeps you in a lot of games you have no business being in both with teams that are much better than you and teams that are much worse.

3. Point two leads to the the biggest problem facing the team since Nolen was hurt and Blake started playing the point. Once you chew up the clock on the offense the PG has one realistic shot to make a play happen and Blake isn't quick enough to beat his defender to the hole or force other to collapse/help and get a good look.

4. Tubby has been to infexible with point 2 to prevent point 3.
 

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