Is this partly a fan problem?

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Classof 66

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This team is actually kind of interesting and has some promise. There are interesting players who are fun to watch and who will develop with experience. Clem always said it took 50 games to really develop at this level of college basketball, talking about high school students more than transfers. But even bad Clem teams had young players offering hope for future and fun for fans as they competed hard and we got to know them. We should maybe enjoy this team a little bit more.

For evidence let's look back to the 90-91 team that was a whopping 5-13 in Big Ten but was fun to watch and got fan support all year. I chose it because it was a team I remember pretty well and enjoyed watching the story lines and getting to know the players on the floor.

Kevin Lynch and Walter Bond were only seniors. Kevin a great leaper who provided highlights. Bond played a steady game and had some good shooting nights.

Bob Martin was a junior, tall, unathletic, hard worker.

Nate Tubbs was sophomore who averaged 4 points. Dana Jackson was a talented Chicago HS player player who transferred from San Diego State (2.5 ppg there), sat out a year, and had a pretty steady sophomore year (12 starts and 8.5 ppg) though did not develop from there).

Freshman class had some talent. Randy Carter was a major talent at power forward and ended up at 9.6 ppg and 5.9 rebounds a game. Ariel McDonald grew during the year and was second leading scorer. Townsend Orr didn't get much play, averaging 0.5 ppg. Ernest Z had some physical gifts but lacked elite basketball skills. (see part 2)
 

Part 2:
Part 2: Now our current team. What is wrong with this group.? Would a school with “good fans” be quite so negative and get so little enjoyment from their efforts and promise. (Remember the 90-91 team had a very positive fan base.)

Seniors – none. But Dawson Garcia sort of fills that role and likely his last season. A leader, intense, really wants to compete and driven to win games, highly skilled, will score 15-20 a game and contribute in many other ways.

Hawkins, transfer Jr. Super quick, fearless, great shooter, intense, adjusting to higher level. Fun to watch, look for more as season goes on

Mitchell, transfer jr. Steady, some limitations at this level but will find a role.

Carrington, soph. Intense, great defender, great rebounder, needs to find his shot and add experience. Probably should not be a high volume 3 point shooter.

Payne: soph. Athletic, skilled, strong, intense. Can dominate inside. Totally fun to watch and will be even better as foot heals.

JOJ: soph Super athletic highlight machine, great fun to watch, will continue to develop. Good chemistry with Hawkins is obvious.

Cam Christie: elite talent will grow steadily during entire season. We just have had a glimpse (was off a month with mono including first few games of season.) Will start soon.

Fox: Jr. getting rust off, great energy, regaining athleticism and skills. I think he will have increasing role.

II: Jr: finding a role, some good skills, needs those 50 games. Maybe don’t need him for 3’s as Christie comes on and others are better 3 pt shooters (Hawkins, Mitchell, Garcia

Betts : Fr: REALLY needs those 50 games. Jury out but some real potential to be a good BIG player.

Big Jack: Limited role but could become a cult figure with ovation when he enters the game

Keinys: Totally unknown at this point.
 


Is what partly a fan problem?

I don’t see a problem statement.
 

This team is fun but they are coming off the back of a decade of basketball futility. Ben Johnson really hasn't done anything of note to energize the fan base at this point outside of a strong non-conference showing in year 1. Since then they have been miserable and this town is going to need more before committing to the program in droves again. The Missouri game was an opportunity to make strides, but blowing a 20 point lead just gives the impression this team is not ready to take the next step. If they win out the rest of their non-con and sweep their December conference games, then excitement will start to generate again.
 


Huh? A fan problem? I will go to my grave that our fan base is one of the most loyal in all college basketball. Even if it's been cut by 65% since Clem days. My gosh, we have 1 Big Ten title since 1997 and 1 that's recognized by the NCAA since 1982. 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've won 2 NCAA Tournament games since 1997. 2!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have finished behind our biggest rival in the BT every year since 1997. EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!!!

While The Barn has a cool old-school vibe, there hasn't been a material fan enhancement to the fan experience since 1994. 1994!!!!!!!!!!!

Yet we have endured a massive seat license program, shot ourselves in the foot with suspensions of players during early Tubby years that other programs would have allowed to play, we refused to hire an assistant coach because of his involvement in our program in decades earlier even though we felt good enough about him to name him an interim-HC at the time, we don't have a modern NIL program to help elevate recruiting, and this is all off the top of my head.

Our fan base, as small as it is now, is literally the best and most consistent part of this program.

Go Gophers Basketball Fans!!
 

Classof 66 said:
Part 2:
Part 2: Now our current team. What is wrong with this group.? Would a school with “good fans” be quite so negative and get so little enjoyment from their efforts and promise. (Remember the 90-91 team had a very positive fan base.)

Seniors – none. But Dawson Garcia sort of fills that role and likely his last season. A leader, intense, really wants to compete and driven to win games, highly skilled, will score 15-20 a game and contribute in many other ways.

Hawkins, transfer Jr. Super quick, fearless, great shooter, intense, adjusting to higher level. Fun to watch, look for more as season goes on

Mitchell, transfer jr. Steady, some limitations at this level but will find a role.

Carrington, soph. Intense, great defender, great rebounder, needs to find his shot and add experience. Probably should not be a high volume 3 point shooter.

Payne: soph. Athletic, skilled, strong, intense. Can dominate inside. Totally fun to watch and will be even better as foot heals.

JOJ: soph Super athletic highlight machine, great fun to watch, will continue to develop. Good chemistry with Hawkins is obvious.

Cam Christie: elite talent will grow steadily during entire season. We just have had a glimpse (was off a month with mono including first few games of season.) Will start soon.

Fox: Jr. getting rust off, great energy, regaining athleticism and skills. I think he will have increasing role.

II: Jr: finding a role, some good skills, needs those 50 games. Maybe don’t need him for 3’s as Christie comes on and others are better 3 pt shooters (Hawkins, Mitchell, Garcia

Betts : Fr: REALLY needs those 50 games. Jury out but some real potential to be a good BIG player.

Big Jack: Limited role but could become a cult figure with ovation when he enters the game

Keinys: Totally unknown at this point.
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I do agree with you that I believe this team will be fun to watch. There is a lot of fan apathy from the last 2 years and the general mediocrity the last 30. Hopefully this team will start to bring back some of those fans but they need a fast start in Big Ten play. Missouri was a huge missed opportunity to generate a little buzz. I think for many fans Ben needs to prove he can coach at this level and rightfully so but it is apparent this team is significantly more talented than the last 2.
 

Classof 66 said:
This team is actually kind of interesting and has some promise. There are interesting players who are fun to watch and who will develop with experience. Clem always said it took 50 games to really develop at this level of college basketball, talking about high school students more than transfers. But even bad Clem teams had young players offering hope for future and fun for fans as they competed hard and we got to know them. We should maybe enjoy this team a little bit more.

For evidence let's look back to the 90-91 team that was a whopping 5-13 in Big Ten but was fun to watch and got fan support all year. I chose it because it was a team I remember pretty well and enjoyed watching the story lines and getting to know the players on the floor.

Kevin Lynch and Walter Bond were only seniors. Kevin a great leaper who provided highlights. Bond played a steady game and had some good shooting nights.

Bob Martin was a junior, tall, unathletic, hard worker.

Nate Tubbs was sophomore who averaged 4 points. Dana Jackson was a talented Chicago HS player player who transferred from San Diego State (2.5 ppg there), sat out a year, and had a pretty steady sophomore year (12 starts and 8.5 ppg) though did not develop from there).

Freshman class had some talent. Randy Carter was a major talent at power forward and ended up at 9.6 ppg and 5.9 rebounds a game. Ariel McDonald grew during the year and was second leading scorer. Townsend Orr didn't get much play, averaging 0.5 ppg. Ernest Z had some physical gifts but lacked elite basketball skills. (see part 2)
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Not that it matters, but Clem said a guy needs 40 games before he understands how to play basketball. He counted on his recruits to be ready for the start of the conference season their sophomore years.
 





60's Guy said:
Maybe the talent is comparable but the coaching is not.
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Agreed. I really like this squad and a .500 B10 record is not out of the question. I'm highly doubtful that will occur primarily to head coaching shortcomings. If this was a Clem or Tubby led team, Williams Arena would be mostly full
 


Classof 66 said:
This team is actually kind of interesting and has some promise. There are interesting players who are fun to watch and who will develop with experience. Clem always said it took 50 games to really develop at this level of college basketball, talking about high school students more than transfers. But even bad Clem teams had young players offering hope for future and fun for fans as they competed hard and we got to know them. We should maybe enjoy this team a little bit more.

For evidence let's look back to the 90-91 team that was a whopping 5-13 in Big Ten but was fun to watch and got fan support all year. I chose it because it was a team I remember pretty well and enjoyed watching the story lines and getting to know the players on the floor.

Kevin Lynch and Walter Bond were only seniors. Kevin a great leaper who provided highlights. Bond played a steady game and had some good shooting nights.

Bob Martin was a junior, tall, unathletic, hard worker.

Nate Tubbs was sophomore who averaged 4 points. Dana Jackson was a talented Chicago HS player player who transferred from San Diego State (2.5 ppg there), sat out a year, and had a pretty steady sophomore year (12 starts and 8.5 ppg) though did not develop from there).

Freshman class had some talent. Randy Carter was a major talent at power forward and ended up at 9.6 ppg and 5.9 rebounds a game. Ariel McDonald grew during the year and was second leading scorer. Townsend Orr didn't get much play, averaging 0.5 ppg. Ernest Z had some physical gifts but lacked elite basketball skills. (see part 2)
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Thanks for bringing A smile to my mug ☕️😃

Townsend and Randy are two of my favs fun to watch grow as pups to hell hounds on the court.
I just chuckled remembering Sid trying to pronounce Ernie’s last name,
 
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bonin21 said:
"They're gonna be great in a couple years!"

A couple years later: "They're gonna be great in a couple years!"
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Personally, that's my favorite never-ending line regarding Gopher sports.
 

MplsGopher said:
Is what partly a fan problem?

I don’t see a problem statement.
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Would a school with “good fans” be quite so negative and get so little enjoyment from their efforts and promise.

That is the problem. Pretty negative vibe and little enjoyment from the season so far. No one really getting to know the individual players and appreciating them. No enthusiasm. That translates into low attendance which is also a problem.
 

Dakota2 said:
Not that it matters, but Clem said a guy needs 40 games before he understands how to play basketball. He counted on his recruits to be ready for the start of the conference season their sophomore years.
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You are right. 50 is the new 40 in my mind I guess. Sorry.
 

I appreciate your post. I agree this team is fun to watch and there is promise there. I think the biggest difference is that in 90-91 we had just made a run in the tourney in '89, we had won the Big Ten in '82 and had some really competitive teams in the mid-80's. In addition, the 70's had great teams, including being rated #1 in the country in '77. So, in 90-91, it was only two years removed from a run in the tourney, with the coach who had led that run. The last Big Ten championship was only 8 years before that, and the 77 team that was amazing was only 13 years earlier.

I think if our 98 Final Four run had happened in 2010, we had a Big Ten championship in 2015, and had made a run in the tourney two years ago Williams Arena would be sold out every night. However, it's been 25 years since the Final Four run and the last Big Ten championship, with only a handful of good years in those 25 years.

I was at the Missouri game and for 32 minutes it was a blast. I think there is a lot of potential with this club, and a win against Missouri would have built a little excitement. However, now we need to win at least one of these two Big Ten games in December to build any interest because the rest of the non-conference slate won't do it.

Appreciate the post though - can't wait to get back to the crowds we had in the 90s. That was a blast!!
 
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BleedGopher said:
Huh? A fan problem? I will go to my grave that our fan base is one of the most loyal in all college basketball. Even if it's been cut by 65% since Clem days. My gosh, we have 1 Big Ten title since 1997 and 1 that's recognized by the NCAA since 1982. 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've won 2 NCAA Tournament games since 1997. 2!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have finished behind our biggest rival in the BT every year since 1997. EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!!!

While The Barn has a cool old-school vibe, there hasn't been a material fan enhancement to the fan experience since 1994. 1994!!!!!!!!!!!

Yet we have endured a massive seat license program, shot ourselves in the foot with suspensions of players during early Tubby years that other programs would have allowed to play, we refused to hire an assistant coach because of his involvement in our program in decades earlier even though we felt good enough about him to name him an interim-HC at the time, we don't have a modern NIL program to help elevate recruiting, and this is all off the top of my head.

Our fan base, as small as it is now, is literally the best and most consistent part of this program.

Go Gophers Basketball Fans!!
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Exactly. The whole "the fans are partly to blame" argument is the ultimate cop out. The program has been mostly awful for decades and you expect fans to continue to breathlessly support it? They're lucky they have any fan base at all considering the performances they've force fed their supporters year after year
 

LesBolstad said:
Agreed. I really like this squad and a .500 B10 record is not out of the question. I'm highly doubtful that will occur primarily to head coaching shortcomings. If this was a Clem or Tubby led team, Williams Arena would be mostly full
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Well I would say for sure that if it was a Bill Musselman team. Williams arena would be full. Or if Lou Holtz switched sports.
 


Dakota2 said:
Not that it matters, but Clem said a guy needs 40 games before he understands how to play basketball. He counted on his recruits to be ready for the start of the conference season their sophomore years.
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" All my players are fine young men. By the time they are sophomores they will put on 10-20 pounds of muscle and become nice players for the Gopher program"
 

I opined in the game thread last night that the non conference schedule is really frustrating. Not just lacking marquee opponents but even opponents of interest. Arkansas Pine Bluff is a miserable program. They absolutely suck. And the gophers who MIGHT be a competitive team in the conference will not learn and grow playing such a pathetic schedule to start the year.

If you want fans—be competitive. Or schedule real opponents. Or both. If the goal is to beat bottom of the conference SWAC/MEAC/WIAC/UMAC teams to make the 9-2 record look good—they don’t value the remaining fans.
 

Classof 66 said:
Would a school with “good fans” be quite so negative and get so little enjoyment from their efforts and promise.

That is the problem. Pretty negative vibe and little enjoyment from the season so far. No one really getting to know the individual players and appreciating them. No enthusiasm. That translates into low attendance which is also a problem.
Click to expand...

I’m sorry I don’t know the players better? This is such a strange argument. Like is there a ton of opportunity to sit down and chat with them that I’m unaware of? The market you’re referencing has changed a lot since 1990 when you liked the team. The way kids are recruited and teams are built has changed. I could LOVE this freshman class and be super excited for them. They could all play against the Gophers next year.

The negative vibe and little enjoyment is from them blowing a 20 point lead against the one decent team they have played. I had season tickets for the Pitino years. He needed to be moved on from. But hiring an unproven coach who was clearly unqualified and then taking last back to back years isn’t a good way to gain equity with a dwindling fan base.
 

Classof 66 said:
This team is actually kind of interesting and has some promise. There are interesting players who are fun to watch and who will develop with experience. Clem always said it took 50 games to really develop at this level of college basketball, talking about high school students more than transfers. But even bad Clem teams had young players offering hope for future and fun for fans as they competed hard and we got to know them. We should maybe enjoy this team a little bit more.

For evidence let's look back to the 90-91 team that was a whopping 5-13 in Big Ten but was fun to watch and got fan support all year. I chose it because it was a team I remember pretty well and enjoyed watching the story lines and getting to know the players on the floor.

Kevin Lynch and Walter Bond were only seniors. Kevin a great leaper who provided highlights. Bond played a steady game and had some good shooting nights.

Bob Martin was a junior, tall, unathletic, hard worker.

Nate Tubbs was sophomore who averaged 4 points. Dana Jackson was a talented Chicago HS player player who transferred from San Diego State (2.5 ppg there), sat out a year, and had a pretty steady sophomore year (12 starts and 8.5 ppg) though did not develop from there).

Freshman class had some talent. Randy Carter was a major talent at power forward and ended up at 9.6 ppg and 5.9 rebounds a game. Ariel McDonald grew during the year and was second leading scorer. Townsend Orr didn't get much play, averaging 0.5 ppg. Ernest Z had some physical gifts but lacked elite basketball skills. (see part 2)
Click to expand...
Let's just ignore that the 90-91 team was fresh off a missed Kevin Lynch shot to go to the final four (and were in the Sweet 16 the year before). EVERYTHING was different then. This is utterly preposterous. It isn't even worth a discussion.
 

BleedGopher said:
Huh? A fan problem? I will go to my grave that our fan base is one of the most loyal in all college basketball. Even if it's been cut by 65% since Clem days. My gosh, we have 1 Big Ten title since 1997 and 1 that's recognized by the NCAA since 1982. 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've won 2 NCAA Tournament games since 1997. 2!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have finished behind our biggest rival in the BT every year since 1997. EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!!!

While The Barn has a cool old-school vibe, there hasn't been a material fan enhancement to the fan experience since 1994. 1994!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

583916.jpg
 

The fans are not to blame. MN sports has been one big fat disappointment after another for decades. The only exception is the MN Lynx and the U of M women's dance team. But no one cares about them. There are some bright spots in the past 30 years, but not enough to overcome the massive disappointments.

Any person who decides to take on a coaching job in the Twin Cities needs to realize something. These teams are not just battling division and conference opponents, they are battling an extremely cynical and jaded audience who has suffered a lot for the past 30 years. It is going to take a lot to win us back. We're sick of potential and moral victories.
 

60's Guy said:
Maybe the talent is comparable but the coaching is not.
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Vegwards said:
The fans are not to blame. MN sports has been one big fat disappointment after another for decades. The only exception is the MN Lynx and the U of M women's dance team. But no one cares about them. There are some bright spots in the past 30 years, but not enough to overcome the massive disappointments.

Any person who decides to take on a coaching job in the Twin Cities needs to realize something. These teams are not just battling division and conference opponents, they are battling an extremely cynical and jaded audience who has suffered a lot for the past 30 years. It is going to take a lot to win us back. We're sick of potential and moral victories.
Click to expand...
Gotta hire a flamethrower.
 

I think it’s a lack of fan problem.
I won’t comment on the team because I literally haven’t watched a game. I’m a former season ticket holder that doesn’t watch games because that’s how bad the last two years were. I follow the scores and if it seems it’s worth coming back I will.

Right now. Nothing tells me this is better than a 12-14th place team. In which case they should fire the coach. Maybe I’m wrong. But if I’m wrong, it still isn’t my fault I’m not watching. it’s their fault for not giving me a product I want to watch.
 

Some guy said:
I think it’s a lack of fan problem.
I won’t comment on the team because I literally haven’t watched a game. I’m a former season ticket holder that doesn’t watch games because that’s how bad the last two years were. I follow the scores and if it seems it’s worth coming back I will.

Right now. Nothing tells me this is better than a 12-14th place team. In which case they should fire the coach. Maybe I’m wrong. But if I’m wrong, it still isn’t my fault I’m not watching. it’s their fault for not giving me a product I want to watch.
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Doesn't watch games and says he won't comment on the team. Proceeds to comment on the team in the claim that nothing tells him this is better than 12-14th place in the Big Ten. Make it make sense.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Doesn't watch games and says he won't comment on the team. Proceeds to comment on the team in the claim that nothing tells him this is better than 12-14th place in the Big Ten. Make it make sense.
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I didn’t comment on the team other than to me they aren’t worth watching because they’ve done nothing to make me think they’ll be better than 12-14

That isn’t a comment on the team. That’s a comment on my perception of the team. Maybe I’ll see a box score that tells me otherwise

What did I say about the team? Not one thing
 

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